Convictions of Murder Without A Body

[Kalie61]

With most of the cases that do not have a body, there is usually a strong case against the defendent, through investigation. In the case mentioned there is a viloent past and threats made against the victim. There is history of it.

Thats how they get convictions in case with out a body. I don't see that with KC. You can prove she is a liar, and you can prove she was a neglectful mother. That's all you can prove. No weapon, no body, no motive, no intent, no history of abuse, no crime scene, nothing that say without a doubt the child is dead.

I hope they have more, but what they have released so far isn't enough, nor should it be enough. There always has to be a high standard to prove that someone committed murder. In most cases with out a body, and the defendent has been convicted that standard was met. It hasn't even come close to being met here.

 

[pizmex]

Accidental death by Chloroform? Casey searched Chloroform on that laptop...I also think if it was accidental, Casey wouldn't be keeping silent this long. JMO

Casey might have powerful incentives to remain silent even if Caylee died from chloroform exposure under hypothetically accidental circumstances.

The reason is that not all accidents are considered equal under the law, and that Casey would be subject to criminal responsibility for some accidents.

For example, if Casey exposed Caylee to a fatal and lethal amount of chloroform, mistakenly yet sincerely believing that Caylee would merely fall asleep for a few hours, Casey would be subject to a harsh prison sentence (life in prison but no death penalty because of the lack of premeditation, intent and understanding of her actions). Casey would be deemed criminally responsible because under this hypothetical set of facts, Casey intentionally exposed Caylee to the chloroform even though she never intended to kill the child. Here, Casey might argue that the death itself was accidental and unintended. But Caylee's exposure to the chloroform was deliberate and intended. Casey's conduct would be deemed reckless, or indifferent or some such classification.

On the other hand, if Casey and Caylee were walking in the park innocently and minding their own business, and a stranger spilled a lethal amount of chloroform on Caylee ... well this would be one example of the type of accident for which Casey would not be held criminally responsible.

 

[Starr58]

THAT is what I was trying to ask and thank you Red for helping me clarify it. Okay so seeing as how this little loophole is a possibility and Baez knows it, I guess the pressure is on the prosecution? I'm asking because somewhere in the little dark place in my gut that tells me I better get ready because she might get off easy on this. I pray it doesn't happen. But the way things are going some days it's hard to feel like justice will be served. But we'll see.

Thanks again for clearing that up for me. Appreciate it

Okay so i am confused:bang:

If Casey is not charged with murder prior to being convicted on the child neglect charge, assuming she is convicted, she CAN or CANNOT be charged with Caylee's murder after conviction???:waitasec:

 

[Maui4me]

me too Starr, I have heard it both ways.... but mostly I have heard that she must be charged with murder prior to the child neglect being tried. I have not seen a definitive answer to this question.

 

[nobull]

Trust me, Casey does not want to go to jail on any charges, especially if she will be mainstreamed into the rest of the jail/prison population. And that would be the Corrections Dept's decision, not Casey's and not her atty's.

Remember what inmates think of alleged baby killers? She wouldn't last in there a week.

 

[suspicious mind]

But convicted of what? If the "sources" are correct, LE is leaning toward accidental death as a possibility. It's possible that Casey wouldn't even do jail time for that.

I think that was the point of offering her "lmited immunity". W/o a body or a confession, they cannot prove it was accidental. They will have to go for murder. They have enough , IMO to go for it.

 

[California Dreamer]

Another conviction without a body is Christy Wilson in California, who was last seen with Mario Garcia, and who it appears she met the same evening at the Thunder Valley Casino and left the casino with. The surveillance tape didn't show past the entrance to the casino, but her car was found left in the parking lot. Crime scene investigators found Christie’s hair and miniscule amounts of her DNA in several places in Garcia’s car. There was nothing to indicate she died (i.e., a death band on the hair). Defense strategies included trying to prove that she was troubled (suggesting suicide), and also that she had prior domestic disputes with her boyfriend, who was at home, and tried to shift the blame to him.

From http://www.findchristiewilson.com/News.asp:
"Without a body or a murder weapon, prosecutor Garen Horst, along with some 700-odd pieces of evidence, convinced a jury of Garcia's guilt. He's serving a 59-year-to life sentence for the murder."

 

[crimesolver4U]

It is very possible that they will go for murder one but she will get convicted of intentional negligent manslaughter since they will likely not be able to show intent to murder. Even if they find a body they will likely not be able to show cause of death or how it was committed as so much time has passed and all the tissue is likely gone. Also with children it is difficult to prove murder as most children are killed by someone they know and it is through strangulation or smothering

 

[one_hooah_wife]

The last thread on this was closed ... but it seems like it might be relevant to discuss and be informed. There is really great information on this site in particular.

http://www.nobodymurdercases.com/index.html

Snipped


"For over 12 years I was an Assistant United States Attorney in the District of Columbia and I prosecuted homicide cases for most of those years. In January of 2006, I prosecuted the second "no body" murder case tried in D.C. and have been interested in "no body" cases ever since.
On this site I track "no body" murder cases, trials and investigations. My table of "No body" Murder Trials lists nearly 300 "no body" murder trials in the United States. I also have consulted, for free, with law enforcement agencies throughout the United States and Canada. If you know of a "no body" case, investigation, or trial, contact me and I'd be happy to add it to my table or blog about it.
All the best,
Thomas A. (Tad) DiBiase, "No Body" Guy"

 

[one_hooah_wife]

Thanks Mods ... I thought that this thread said "closed" when I searched it.

 

[LinasK]

Man convicted of murdering couple thrown off yacht

By AMY TAXIN – 59 minutes ago
SANTA ANA, Calif. (AP) — A man was convicted Monday of murdering three people, including a couple who were tied to an anchor and thrown off their yacht off the California coast.
An Orange County jury found Skylar Deleon, 29, guilty of three counts of first-degree murder and special circumstances for financial gain and multiple victims.
<snip>
Tom and Jackie Hawks were thrown from their yacht in 2004 during a cruise to show the vessel to Deleon, whom they believed was a prospective buyer.
Deleon was also found guilty of murdering Jon Jarvi, of Anaheim, in 2003. Prosecutors had said Deleon met Jarvi in a work furlough program while serving jail time for burglary, and killed him in Mexico after Jarvi gave him $50,000.
Prosecutors said Deleon feigned interest in buying the boat and took a test cruise where he and two other men overpowered the Hawkses, forced the couple to sign over ownership of the boat, tied them to the anchor and dumped them into the Pacific Ocean.
The Hawkses' bodies were never found.
more at link:http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hJ8iiUuW3dwnrWgQmZ2DvGS-WdbAD93UKT4G0

 

[Pixie_Dust]

doesnt the defense have to disclose all there discovery as well? It sure will be telling to see what documents they have to prove she is inocent, it seems to me that the only thing they have is what LE has given to them that they will try and pick apart, but as it has been said they have dotted there i's and crossed there t's. Now i would like to now if casey still has this note of direction she was to follow for 30 days... but im sure a hand writting analys will have a hayday with it. they having nothing in black and white just her story that has been proven is nothing but lies. and the 31 days will seal her fate.. the death penalty.

 

[nancy botwin]

Man convicted of murdering couple thrown off yacht

By AMY TAXIN – 59 minutes ago
SANTA ANA, Calif. (AP) — A man was convicted Monday of murdering three people, including a couple who were tied to an anchor and thrown off their yacht off the California coast.
An Orange County jury found Skylar Deleon, 29, guilty of three counts of first-degree murder and special circumstances for financial gain and multiple victims.
<snip>
Tom and Jackie Hawks were thrown from their yacht in 2004 during a cruise to show the vessel to Deleon, whom they believed was a prospective buyer.
Deleon was also found guilty of murdering Jon Jarvi, of Anaheim, in 2003. Prosecutors had said Deleon met Jarvi in a work furlough program while serving jail time for burglary, and killed him in Mexico after Jarvi gave him $50,000.
Prosecutors said Deleon feigned interest in buying the boat and took a test cruise where he and two other men overpowered the Hawkses, forced the couple to sign over ownership of the boat, tied them to the anchor and dumped them into the Pacific Ocean.
The Hawkses' bodies were never found.
more at link:http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hJ8iiUuW3dwnrWgQmZ2DvGS-WdbAD93UKT4G0

omg I read about that case a while ago-- the murderer was a POWER RANGER.

 

[faefrost]

Ok here is one important thing that alot of people seem to miss about this case. there is one HUGE diference between this case and many of the others that were brought without a body. While Caylee's body has not been located, the materials found in the trunk are enough to constitute human remains. Hence they can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Caylee is dead, and that a very dead Caylee was transported in that vehicle. That is a huge jump in evidence from simply not having a body.

Besides the obvious desire to put the poor litle girl to rest, the other major reason for finding the body at this point would be to try and determine a firm mechanism of death. But the actual burden of proving a death has occured is pretty much past at this point. based on TB's slip up the other day even the defense realizes this.

 

[Angel Who Cares]

I posted this yesterday in the media links-sticky threads yesterday. Seeing it is the subject of this thread I will post it here for those who are interested in the subject!

1987 Case Proves Conviction Without Body Possible-Search For Caylee News Story
Lake Mary, FL:

http://cfnews13.com/MediaPlayer2/Me...520081255&cat=Local&title=Court Day For Casey

 

[Brini]

We have a case in Ohio (30 miles from my house) where there was a conviction without a body, anyone know others would like to hope there is a chance if Caylee isn't found alive that Casey will pay.

Facts

Justice For Vince

Web Sleuth

There was a special on ID re: this, a few days ago.

One case off the top of my head. I don't remember where it was.

Beautiful little girl. No daddy. Mom trolled local bars for boyfriends. One of those ladies who MUST "have a man."

One guy really impressed Mom by writing his phone # on a $50 bill.

Predictably, Mom and the guy got together. The little girl vanished. Her body was never found, but he went to death row, IIRC.

 

[Brini]

Ok here is one important thing that alot of people seem to miss about this case. there is one HUGE diference between this case and many of the others that were brought without a body. While Caylee's body has not been located, the materials found in the trunk are enough to constitute human remains. Hence they can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Caylee is dead, and that a very dead Caylee was transported in that vehicle. That is a huge jump in evidence from simply not having a body.

Besides the obvious desire to put the poor litle girl to rest, the other major reason for finding the body at this point would be to try and determine a firm mechanism of death. But the actual burden of proving a death has occured is pretty much past at this point. based on TB's slip up the other day even the defense realizes this.

..which is prolly why LP said that "enough of Caylee was found" to prosecute.

 

[Brini]

It is very possible that they will go for murder one but she will get convicted of intentional negligent manslaughter since they will likely not be able to show intent to murder. Even if they find a body they will likely not be able to show cause of death or how it was committed as so much time has passed and all the tissue is likely gone. Also with children it is difficult to prove murder as most children are killed by someone they know and it is through strangulation or smothering

My guess is that they can prove intent.

But, even if they can't, they likely have enough charges to keep her in jail until she is older, and maybe less dangerous.

 

[Brini]

I strongly doubt that and I'll explain why I say that. On the jailhouse call with her brother, I think the first one. She's rambling through her lies and he says to her, "we're going to find out". He was insistent on that. He said he wasn't going to go round and round with her especially seeing what their mother (Cindy) has been going through.

Excellent point! Thanks!

 

[kpalma715]

Hi,

I found this article, it kind of reminds me of Caylee Anthony case, in some ways. I hope its ok, if I copy and paste it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azaria_Chamberlain_disappearance

It was just showing how the evidence was in the car, the mother had no emotions, no body was ever found.