Convictions of Murder Without A Body

[Chemaster]

I may be wrong but the jury may be less sentimental to CA's cause without the body.

There has been other Mom's / Dad's guilty of murdering their children and getting less then 5 years in prison. However, the thought of a child's body left to the elements may push the jury to 'make a statement'!

 

[dreamerlin]

I think there may be a lighter sentence if cause of death cannot be established. It would seem the more horrific the details the more weight that would carry.

 

[2goldfish]

I may be wrong but the jury may be less sentimental to CA's cause without the body.

There has been other Mom's / Dad's guilty of murdering their children and getting less then 5 years in prison. However, the thought of a child's body left to the elements may push the jury to 'make a statement'!

you know, what I think will hang her (so to speak) is the absolute and complete lack of care/sadness, etc...during the 31 days, and since. very hard to sympathize with someone who sure has no sympathy for anyone else.

 

[feddup]

Another conviction without a body is Christy Wilson in California, who was last seen with Mario Garcia, and who it appears she met the same evening at the Thunder Valley Casino and left the casino with. The surveillance tape didn't show past the entrance to the casino, but her car was found left in the parking lot. Crime scene investigators found Christie’s hair and miniscule amounts of her DNA in several places in Garcia’s car. There was nothing to indicate she died (i.e., a death band on the hair). Defense strategies included trying to prove that she was troubled (suggesting suicide), and also that she had prior domestic disputes with her boyfriend, who was at home, and tried to shift the blame to him.

From http://www.findchristiewilson.com/News.asp:
"Without a body or a murder weapon, prosecutor Garen Horst, along with some 700-odd pieces of evidence, convinced a jury of Garcia's guilt. He's serving a 59-year-to life sentence for the murder."

I saw the show abou that case on 48 Hours Mysteries.....
Like in KC;s, they used video to show where he has been, etc. The last time she was ever seen was when she walked out of the Casino with him and it was on the video.
wow, I sure hope KC doesnt get off easy because they cant find Caylees body. The story about the little girl in FL and no body found is kind of worrying.
Hopefully they will find Caylees body but it sure seems like she had the advantage waiting 30 days. She got a 30 day running start

 

[mommaearth]

I appologize if there has been another tread about this subject.

I am so disapointed that they did not find Caylee this weekend or in previous searches. I thought that this would be the piece of the puzzle needed to put Casey away forever for sentence her to death.

I will not give up hope she will be found before trial but, I am trying to move past it in case she isn't found and think about Casey's chances of being convicted of first degree murder without a body. IMO I would just as soon see her rot in jail for the rest of her life than be sentenced to death.

Here are some cases I found just curious to hear everyones thoughts.

http://dianedimond.net/no-body-no-trial-no-way/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,438661,00.html
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/179898_navyside29x.html

 

[Clock's Tickin]

A case in my town tried and convicted a man of killing his ex-wife with no forensics! The only witness was a drunk with a photographic memory who saw the man and a friend putting a heavy plastic bag into the trunk of a car at a hotel. The bag "moved" and the man called security-who did not even respond! Once they convicted guy #1, guy #2 took LE to the body for a reduced sentence. Had the drunk not remembered a partial plate # and been able to point out guy #2 in a line-up-LE would have nothing. No forensics----jury had no reasonable doubt---go figure!

 

[Elphaba]

Well, the former kid actor that was found guilty of killing that couple in California was handed the death penalty... so conviction and getting the DP without a body IS possible:


http://www.postchronicle.com/news/original/article_212184728.shtml

 

[Irish_Eyes]

Without a body, the prosecution is going to have to break it down for the jury something like this maybe:

1) Caylee was not quite three when she disappeared. She obviously didn't run away. She has no capacity to care for herself.

2) She was last seen with her mother, KC (per GA statement) on June 16. No credible sighting has been reported since, despite massive publicity and search efforts.

3) Mother did not report child missing, and once reported, Mother wasted precious time and resources diverting LE from efforts to find child. It's reasonable to ask jury to believe mother does not want child found.

4) Motive - LE will try to show that KC blamed her "mistake" daughter as the source of her frustrations in life. KC felt CA used Caylee to control her, and Caylee was generally "in the way" of what KC wanted to do in life.

5) Motive - LE will try to show that no one else had sufficient motive to kill Caylee.

6) Means - KC searched chloroform - chloroform was found in KC trunk in abnormal levels - conditions in trunk are consistent with a decompositional event. Essentially, somebody with knowledge of chloroform and access to KC trunk transported a decomposing human individual. Chloroform and trunk are the means, IMHO.

7) Opportunity - Someone had access to chloroform, Caylee, and the trunk of KC's car between June 16 and June 30 when car is towed. KC notes smell in text to amy on June 24, so likely this window of time is even smaller. How many people had access to KC car in that time frame? Using cell pings and EZ pass records from KC and others, how precisely can LE pinpoint who was driving the car in this time? Who else had keys to the car?

8) LE will submit to the jury that it is beyond reasonable doubt, because the other alternative that somebody other than KC transported a deceased human other than Caylee in the trunk of that car during the exact period of time that KC daughter went missing and is still unaccounted for is not "reasonable".

 

[rosepetal1065]

All of these are really good examples. I think there's a good chance of her going down for this. Although I want her to "fry", I'll take life or damn near life.
I feel bad when I think of Caylee, dying at the hands of her own mom. Little ones are so vulnerable, and they need us so much. How could anyone be so heartless. What a .

 

[panthera]

Without a body, the prosecution is going to have to break it down for the jury something like this maybe:

1) Caylee was not quite three when she disappeared. She obviously didn't run away. She has no capacity to care for herself.

2) She was last seen with her mother, KC (per GA statement) on June 16. No credible sighting has been reported since, despite massive publicity and search efforts.

3) Mother did not report child missing, and once reported, Mother wasted precious time and resources diverting LE from efforts to find child. It's reasonable to ask jury to believe mother does not want child found.

4) Motive - LE will try to show that KC blamed her "mistake" daughter as the source of her frustrations in life. KC felt CA used Caylee to control her, and Caylee was generally "in the way" of what KC wanted to do in life.

5) Motive - LE will try to show that no one else had sufficient motive to kill Caylee.

6) Means - KC searched chloroform - chloroform was found in KC trunk in abnormal levels - conditions in trunk are consistent with a decompositional event. Essentially, somebody with knowledge of chloroform and access to KC trunk transported a decomposing human individual. Chloroform and trunk are the means, IMHO.

7) Opportunity - Someone had access to chloroform, Caylee, and the trunk of KC's car between June 16 and June 30 when car is towed. KC notes smell in text to amy on June 24, so likely this window of time is even smaller. How many people had access to KC car in that time frame? Using cell pings and EZ pass records from KC and others, how precisely can LE pinpoint who was driving the car in this time? Who else had keys to the car?

8) LE will submit to the jury that it is beyond reasonable doubt, because the other alternative that somebody other than KC transported a deceased human other than Caylee in the trunk of that car during the exact period of time that KC daughter went missing and is still unaccounted for is not "reasonable".

Excellent post! :clap: I also think they will introduce Casey's activities during the period of time from when Caylee was last seen to the time she was arrested. There is no evidence of her searching for Caylee, but instead photos of her partying at Fusion, living at TL's and setting up house with him, getting a "good life" tattoo, spending Amy's money at various stores and cashing a check at the bank, etc. And of course the numerous lies she told people about Caylee being with the nanny at the beach and other places, with no concern from Casey where Caylee was. MOO

 

[DotsEyes]

I think I can answer some of these questions and I base my responses on the information that is available to us via forensics and interviews. The State can prove the following six things:

1. KC admitted that Caylee had been missing for 31 days. She did not report the child missing, kidnapped, injured. The testimony of friends and family corroborate that Caylee was no where to be found during those 31 days. Failing to report a kidnapping or mention that the child was missing is neglect.

2. A dead human was in the A's backyard, as discovered by the dogs. (and perhaps some forensic tests that we do not have yet).

3. A dead human was in KC's car trunk, as proven by the forensics sniffer tests. Caylee's hair was also in the trunk, at least one of her hairs displayed the 'death band". The death band tells us Caylee is dead. It is therefore more probable than not (a legal term) that the decomp evidence is from Caylee and not from some other person.

4. When interviewed by LE, she showed no real concern for her missing baby and insisted that the child was kidnapped by an imaginary Zanny. This shows deception as she most certainly drove the car with the decomp smell in it, she admitted the stench to at least one person.

5. During the time between June 15th and July 15th, she avoided anyone who would question the whereabouts of her child and told no one that her child was missing, kidnapped, etc. She used other people's cars and eventually abandonned her vehicle for 3 days at Amscot. She knew that the car smelled and admitted that she cleaned it which tells us she was in the trunk, with the smell.

6. Someone removed the body from the trunk.

Now, there is no body. It can not be proven that KC killed Caylee, whether by accident or intent. All that can be proven is that Caylee is dead and was likely in the trunk of the car that her mother used during the time in question. That is it.

However, IF and I say IF, there is sufficient chloroform evidence that tells us the chloroform cannot be explained as coming from any place other than an outside source, it can reasonably be deduced that the person with the sole use of the car put the chloroform in the car. (it is unreasonable to think that someone else entered the car to pour chlorofom into the trunk).

Chloroform is deadly and screams intent. This means if the chloroform can not be reasonably explained, that someone intentionally put the chloroform in the trunk. IF KC did Google chloroform and how to make it at home, then it can reasonably be deduced that she was interested in the effects of the chemical. The presence of chloroform in the trunk after the Google search can reasonably be assumed that she learned how to make it or how to use it. The chloroform is not found any where else, just the trunk which contained Caylee's body. It is reasonable to deduce that the death of Caylee and the presence of chloroform are linked. There is no innocent explanation for chloroform - even if she is too stupid to think that it is deadly.

Without the chloroform, I do not believe that the State can prove the requisite intent in order to proceed with a capital case. It is my opinion that the chloroform is the essential element to prove murder, rather than accident.

Even if her body is found, there may not be any evidence of murder.

The State's case is not a slam dunk - at least as far as I can see.

 

[passionflower]

Think of the wood chip murder, no body, husband went to jail murder 1 anyway......
of course hasking confessed and LE found pieces in city dump of Lori. IMO,
there IS enough to put KC away!!! and the theft charges!!! to back it up........years gone!!! She will be an old hag by the time she gets out, I pray, IMO

 

[LinasK]

Without the chloroform, I do not believe that the State can prove the requisite intent in order to proceed with a capital case. It is my opinion that the chloroform is the essential element to prove murder, rather than accident.

Even if her body is found, there may not be any evidence of murder.

The State's case is not a slam dunk - at least as far as I can see.

Obviously a 2.5 year old, with no known major health problems didn't die of natural causes!:doh: The chloroform searches and looking up missing children's websites months in advance scream premeditation. Her child was a nuisance to her, which is why she described her as "the little snothead", and my "offspring" to others. Those were not spoken as terms of endearment! Caylee did not die of drowning or heat exhaustion. The state has the proof it needs to show Casey killed her with chloroform and it wasn't accidental!

 

[jandkmom]

I think I can answer some of these questions and I base my responses on the information that is available to us via forensics and interviews. The State can prove the following six things:

1. KC admitted that Caylee had been missing for 31 days. She did not report the child missing, kidnapped, injured. The testimony of friends and family corroborate that Caylee was no where to be found during those 31 days. Failing to report a kidnapping or mention that the child was missing is neglect.

2. A dead human was in the A's backyard, as discovered by the dogs. (and perhaps some forensic tests that we do not have yet).

3. A dead human was in KC's car trunk, as proven by the forensics sniffer tests. Caylee's hair was also in the trunk, at least one of her hairs displayed the 'death band". The death band tells us Caylee is dead. It is therefore more probable than not (a legal term) that the decomp evidence is from Caylee and not from some other person.

4. When interviewed by LE, she showed no real concern for her missing baby and insisted that the child was kidnapped by an imaginary Zanny. This shows deception as she most certainly drove the car with the decomp smell in it, she admitted the stench to at least one person.

5. During the time between June 15th and July 15th, she avoided anyone who would question the whereabouts of her child and told no one that her child was missing, kidnapped, etc. She used other people's cars and eventually abandonned her vehicle for 3 days at Amscot. She knew that the car smelled and admitted that she cleaned it which tells us she was in the trunk, with the smell.

6. Someone removed the body from the trunk.

Now, there is no body. It can not be proven that KC killed Caylee, whether by accident or intent. All that can be proven is that Caylee is dead and was likely in the trunk of the car that her mother used during the time in question. That is it.

However, IF and I say IF, there is sufficient chloroform evidence that tells us the chloroform cannot be explained as coming from any place other than an outside source, it can reasonably be deduced that the person with the sole use of the car put the chloroform in the car. (it is unreasonable to think that someone else entered the car to pour chlorofom into the trunk).

Chloroform is deadly and screams intent. This means if the chloroform can not be reasonably explained, that someone intentionally put the chloroform in the trunk. IF KC did Google chloroform and how to make it at home, then it can reasonably be deduced that she was interested in the effects of the chemical. The presence of chloroform in the trunk after the Google search can reasonably be assumed that she learned how to make it or how to use it. The chloroform is not found any where else, just the trunk which contained Caylee's body. It is reasonable to deduce that the death of Caylee and the presence of chloroform are linked. There is no innocent explanation for chloroform - even if she is too stupid to think that it is deadly.

Without the chloroform, I do not believe that the State can prove the requisite intent in order to proceed with a capital case. It is my opinion that the chloroform is the essential element to prove murder, rather than accident.

Even if her body is found, there may not be any evidence of murder.

The State's case is not a slam dunk - at least as far as I can see.

Excellent post. I don't agree that she can't be convicted of murder though. Since she never admitted to anyone, that we know of, of an accident when LE has given her plenty of opportunities to, even during her questioning offering up that excuse. She has repeatedly lied to everyone, partying while her child was dead and possibly still in her trunk, seems to show a very shallow and uncaring person. If they can prove that Caylee has died, I think a jury can be convinced that she was murdered instead of an accident.

 

[gitana1]

There is a case going on right now, her in California. A 3 year old girl went missing in the late 60's, I think in 1969. Her mother lied for all these years about the child's whereabouts, telling the bio-dad that the child was living with her boyfriend's mother and later, that she was in high school in Canada, IIRC. The mom and her boyfriend moved to Illinois soon after the child disappeared. The father never gave up trying to find out what happened and launched a private investigation in 2004. It led LE to open the case. The little girl had two older brothers. One, age 6 at the time, remembered the last night she was seen. The girl came in the brother's room and said, "Hide me. Hide me." Then, the mother came in and took the child out. The brother never saw his baby sister again. Due to LE's investigation, the ex-boyfriend was interviwed. He confessed that the mother was alone with the child in the room and that he helped her bury the baby in a canyon later on. He said he did not know what happened to the child. The mother never spoke. She is now on trial. The ex was charged but died in jail. The defense is now trying to say that the ex did it and that the mom was afraid of him and afriad to find out what happened to her child. But, again, in all these years, she has never spoken.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/orange/la-me-prentice11-2008nov11,0,4936054.story
The body of the baby was never found. I remember an article when this case first broke awhile back. The ex actually took investigators to the area where he helped bury the baby but they could find nothing. I think the mother will be convicted.

 

[Irish_Eyes]

\
3. A dead human was in KC's car trunk, as proven by the forensics sniffer tests. Caylee's hair was also in the trunk, at least one of her hairs displayed the 'death band". The death band tells us Caylee is dead. It is therefore more probable than not (a legal term) that the decomp evidence is from Caylee and not from some other person.

...

However, IF and I say IF, there is sufficient chloroform evidence that tells us the chloroform cannot be explained as coming from any place other than an outside source, it can reasonably be deduced that the person with the sole use of the car put the chloroform in the car. (it is unreasonable to think that someone else entered the car to pour chlorofom into the trunk).

...

The State's case is not a slam dunk - at least as far as I can see.

I agree. In fact, I posted something similar earlier. Great minds think alike
And you're right it's not a slam dunk. I think the prosecutors will need to lead the jurors very carefully through the body farm evidence, which is pretty dry and technical. However, I think a talented prosecutor might be able to sway a jury, and again, chloroform and access to that trunk are the keys.

Also, For as mad as we get at KC about all her partying and callousness, it just might help her get convicted. For most jurors, I imagine just the fact that KC never reports Caylee missing to the police, and never even tells her family or close friends is going to carry a lot of weight. Some jurors however might say "Well, maybe it was an accident and she was too afraid/ashamed/upset to talk about it..." But then let the prosecutor bust out the Fusion pics, the Lake Vaj pics, the "come out and party with me on Friday!" texts, and I think the jury will see that this was not a frantic mother desperately searching for her child, consumed by the need to find her and bring her home safely.

Anyone read Sharon Rocha's account of her days when Laci was missing? KC better hope none of the jurors did, because that is the account of a grieving mother. KC's behavior resembles Paris Hilton more than Sharon Rocha.


Wonder what JB's defense will be? If he goes with accident, KC would have to take the stand, no? (You think JB's worried about suborning perjory?)
Or will he go with something like "KC's ill, but she didn't do it. She didn't report it or act normally after the disappearance because of her illness, not because she's guilty". Will it still be the one-armed man - oh wait, wrong patsy - I mean ZFG???

 

[TURBOTHINK]

Ok here is one important thing that alot of people seem to miss about this case. there is one HUGE diference between this case and many of the others that were brought without a body. While Caylee's body has not been located, the materials found in the trunk are enough to constitute human remains. Hence they can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Caylee is dead, and that a very dead Caylee was transported in that vehicle. That is a huge jump in evidence from simply not having a body.

Besides the obvious desire to put the poor litle girl to rest, the other major reason for finding the body at this point would be to try and determine a firm mechanism of death. But the actual burden of proving a death has occured is pretty much past at this point. based on TB's slip up the other day even the defense realizes this.

It is similar to the guy who put a 5 year old in the trunk of his car and then to be eaten by alligators. It took the jury 3 days to convict him.

 

[MaedchenX]

I have not read through the entire thread so I do not know whether it has been mentioned before, but I found the following case at the Doe Network site.

snipped:
(File 2663DFPA) Katelyn Selena Rivera-Helton

"Katelyn was last known to be in the company of her father, Robert N. Rivera. He has since been taken into custody but will not reveal the whereabouts of Katelyn.

Rivera ran off with the little girl from the babysitter's Conchester Avenue home about 11 a.m. on August 10, 1999, after assaulting her mother in the parking lot of a nearby convenience store.
Except for a pacifier, Rivera took nothing with them.

Rivera called Helton 15 to 20 times that day, saying he and Katelyn were visiting parks and eating at McDonald's, and that they might go to Brandywine Zoo. Helton spoke at least once by phone with Katelyn that afternoon.

Rivera was last seen with Katelyn at a gas station at Route 1 and 100 in Chester County. Police later reported that Katelyn was fine, standing in the back seat and looking out the window.

Rivera was next seen about 10 p.m., when he arrived alone at a friend's trailer along the Elk River, five miles south of Elkton. Rivera's Maryland hosts asked him to leave the next morning because of the odd way he was acting. When he left the community located about 40 miles from Helton's Upper Chichester residence, they noticed a shovel missing from the property. It was recovered August 23 at a construction site along Route 40 in Elkton, Maryland. After learning about the shovel, police searched for Katelyn's body in dense woods near the trailer and along the river. Police searched the site and dredged a pond, but found nothing.

A dirty yellow sock and a laceless rhinestone-studded sneaker her mother positively identified as Katelyn's were recovered by investigators along busy Route 202 in Delaware.
Rivera was alone about 2 p.m. on August 11, when he turned up at the home of Helton's parents, and surrendered to police.

Rivera first told authorities he gave the baby away to a couple at Longwood Gardens. He has since backed off from that claim after investigators couldn't find any of corroborating evidence.

Rivera, who is part Puerto Rican, had previously threatened to take Katelyn to Puerto Rico. Rivera was unemployed and his driver's license was suspended.

Robert Norman Rivera was convicted in 2002 of murdering Katelyn. He was sentenced to life without parole"

There are so many aspects of this tragic case which are eerily similar to Casey's lies and what likely happened to Caylee, I can only hope that the outcome will also be the same in a court of law.

 

[LetJusticePrevail]

Irish Eyes, I am going to hang on every letter of every word you said in your post. I hope you are right. I hope the prosecution has some behind the scenes gems we've not seen - I told my bf, who's a lawyer, that I hate him the other night cause he said there are so many loopholes. I hope justice will be served for Caylee!

I agree. In fact, I posted something similar earlier. Great minds think alike
And you're right it's not a slam dunk. I think the prosecutors will need to lead the jurors very carefully through the body farm evidence, which is pretty dry and technical. However, I think a talented prosecutor might be able to sway a jury, and again, chloroform and access to that trunk are the keys.

Also, For as mad as we get at KC about all her partying and callousness, it just might help her get convicted. For most jurors, I imagine just the fact that KC never reports Caylee missing to the police, and never even tells her family or close friends is going to carry a lot of weight. Some jurors however might say "Well, maybe it was an accident and she was too afraid/ashamed/upset to talk about it..." But then let the prosecutor bust out the Fusion pics, the Lake Vaj pics, the "come out and party with me on Friday!" texts, and I think the jury will see that this was not a frantic mother desperately searching for her child, consumed by the need to find her and bring her home safely.

Anyone read Sharon Rocha's account of her days when Laci was missing? KC better hope none of the jurors did, because that is the account of a grieving mother. KC's behavior resembles Paris Hilton more than Sharon Rocha.


Wonder what JB's defense will be? If he goes with accident, KC would have to take the stand, no? (You think JB's worried about suborning perjory?)
Or will he go with something like "KC's ill, but she didn't do it. She didn't report it or act normally after the disappearance because of her illness, not because she's guilty". Will it still be the one-armed man - oh wait, wrong patsy - I mean ZFG???

 

[sandcastles4me]

Here is a case I watched about on TruTv yesterday. Ashley Lashay Jones went missing in 1996 from her home in Memphis, Tennessee. Her Aunt was charged in her murder when Ashleys blood found in the Aunt's car trunk. The body of Ashley has never been found. The Aunt was convicted and charged for 2nd degree murder and other charges and is serving a 35 year sentence.
Google Ashley LaShay Jones to read more on the case