Cords, Knots, and Strangulation Devices

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
That is faulty logic. The neighbors were not actually THERE to commit the murder, the Rs were. In order to kill someone, you have to be in the same place as they are. Unless a next-door neighbor shot her through the window, which obviously we know did not happen. Being in the house, from an LE point of view, makes anyone of sufficient age (and yes, that means BR) there at the time a potential suspect UNTIL a name is associated with the killer. This isn't just MY idea.

No I think it is you whose logic is faulty. I stated that proximity was no indication of guilt. However, it is frequently stated that they are primary suspects BECAUSE they were in the house at the time she died. It therefore stands to reason by following this logic, that the next most likey suspects should be the near neighbours, radiating outwards until around the area of North Korea.

This completely ignores the fact that ANYONE could have entered the house and committed the crime, from near or far. As HOTYH pointed out, it was not an impenetrable fortress -- it had windows, doors (and an open balcony).
 
OTG,

(From the blogger who doesn't blog too much:)...I'm following this 'case' since the day one, from the first TV report...was probably the first buyer of PMPT and ST books:)..., watched every R's interviews, read every WEB blog/forum...For the last couple weeks, your posts got my attention and I was following your analysis very carefully, waiting for conclusion. By the way, IMO, your analytical ability, written structural 'presentation' and communication skills/ethics are absolutely excellent! Now, regarding your 'conclusion'. Some has asked you very good question: why 10 yo male child would play the 'sexual' game using such a complicated 'adult' horror setting described in your analysis (instead of playing 'nice doctors' game)? This is a valid question which probably can be answered by analyzing what kind of information about 'restraining people by cord' was available to BR in 1996. What about the computer games BR likes to play at that time? If we can find at least one game who has such a 'restraining people by cord' scenario (not necessarily for the sexual needs) available in 1996 - maybe it COULD be the answer. Otherwise, why use such a complicated by cord manipulation: tide the hands, go over some supportive pipe (by the way, IMO, the fact that her hands were in high-up position is the weakest point in theory that she was killed laying on her back or stomach), place some kind of loop on her neck (reminds me of the choker to restrain the dogs)...all of these are such a complicated 'mechanism' build by the sickening-adult-driven imagination....but, if this 'mechanism' was introduced to the child as the 'norm' in some kind of computer game then your analysis has foundation. You see, I believe that this case will be solved (if ever!) by unlocking the 'individual psycho' which plays the major role in JBR murder. JMO. Of course, I do believe in scientific evidence...however, the human 'psycho' is the key for me. Therefore, RN is one of the best 'treasures' in this case. Again, IMO:)...
 
Oh, can you tell me more than just than just that "it's totally unbelievable?" What about it is unbelievable? Some particulars would be appreciated more than just personal opinion.
.

Ok, here's a couple to start with:

Was the cord of sufficient length to have been tied to each of her arms and her neck and also to go over the pipe on the ceiling of the basement some 7-8ft high?

If her left arm was raised by her fall and the wrist knot tightened, was there any mark left on her skin by the full weight of her body pulling down whilst her arm was being pulled up?

Would a blow from the golf putter to her head by a small stature boy be consistent with the location, shape and displaced section of skull?

Was evidence of the putter being used as a weapon found and was it found to be consistent with the injury?
 
Ok, here's a couple to start with:

Was the cord of sufficient length to have been tied to each of her arms and her neck and also to go over the pipe on the ceiling of the basement some 7-8ft high?

If her left arm was raised by her fall and the wrist knot tightened, was there any mark left on her skin by the full weight of her body pulling down whilst her arm was being pulled up?

Would a blow from the golf putter to her head by a small stature boy be consistent with the location, shape and displaced section of skull?

Was evidence of the putter being used as a weapon found and was it found to be consistent with the injury?

Heyya MF.

Late night, early morn, but iirc the ceiling of the wine cellar room was lower than other parts of the basement.
 
Heyya, Tad.

I see what you're referring (would that be "refering" for our Brit friends) to, but the picture resolution sure makes it hard to make out. At first it really had me puzzled, because I was looking at where it would be in relation to the wraps so I could find it on the opposite side in the other picture. Looks to be between the first and second wraps on the paintbrush. Yes?
attachment.php


I couldn't find anything that would correspond in the other picture. Then I realized that what I was doing was imagining turning it over (end to end) and looking for it on the opposite end between same wraps. But something didn't look right -- the end wraps didn't slant toward the center (centre?) the way they should.

:banghead:

Did you do the same thing?

It's not turned over like that for the pictures. Look at the direction that the long cord end comes away from the paintbrush in each picture. The two sides of the knot are shown by rotating the paintbrush 180 degrees (i.e., the cord turns the paintbrush over by lifting it over). See what I mean?
3d74fed960b722eeb6daf7534bd15cb6b318fb006fa23fbb6b6982e42c08bb454g.jpg


So what you see in the picture you pointed out is the same end shown in the picture I posted. (Does that make sense?)
.

Heyya otg,

The double prusik has that criss-crossed effect on one side of the stick, if the six 'strands'/loops formed around the 'stick' are not neatly arranged.

But, I can't get beyond that point, because if the smaller loose strand end is not somehow knotted or tucked behind the other strands loped around the stick, (post forming the doulble prusik), then the handle looses it's balanced tension.
 
Could it not be that Burke WAS just playing doctor with her when she screamed (most likely because something he did to her hurt) and then he hits her with the flashlight to shut her up? Then he has to get his parents as he knows he has hurt her very badly. What evidence is there then that would keep John Ramsey from being the one who tied those knots? I very much believe BR was involved in this from the get-go, but I don't believe he did the staging. The staging and the rn are John and Patsy, all the way. To define staging: everything that happened after the head-bash, including the sexual assault with a foreign object and ending with the wiping down, re-dressing, and ransom note. Burke was a nine year old boy with all the curiosity that comes with that. We have no way of knowing just how curious he was, but he did have older friends that very well could have put ideas in his head (especially if they had seen JB in her "sexy" pageant clothing). With all the stories of eight and nine year olds raping little girls in the news these days, this theory is not all that far-fectched.
 
I'm not going to comment on any theories but if you need more info on what pre-teen children are capable of just look up the James Bulger case.

I'm not sure I believe that BDI, however i don't think anyone can say that he wasn't capable of doing anything to JBR or that he never showed violent tendencies or whatever, because we simply have no idea about what B was like or what his general personality and behaviour was like.
 
otg

You certainly have come up with a theory which fits much of the evidence. It could have happened this way - certainly no reason for me to deny that it could.

I find it unlikely though. But then I find all BDI theory unlikely.

BDI always has to explain both JR and PR doing all the staging to protect BR.

But, BR isn't going to prison at age 9. He's going to a juvenile shrink ward for a while, and this is embarrassing to the family - but is it more embarrassing than being a murder suspect? More embarrassing than having people think you diddled your daughter then killed her? I always find a cover-up to protect Burke an unlikely scenario.

Consider that had there been an indictment, and the Rs were found guilty at trial, they'd have "lost" Burke for all practical purposes. Implicating one's self in a murder doesn't seem like a good way to protect your son. If BR did kill JBR, accidentally, the best course of action for the Rs would be call the police and not touch one damn thing. Would have been best for BR too.

BDI usually has JR covering up to save himself - the presumption being JR did the prior molestation. But again, is it better to be suspected of molestation, or suspected of both molestation and murder? And what's the probability that JR could be proven to be the prior abuser? Proof as opposed to suspicion.

The really big problem with BDI is that PR's involvement must be explained. I take it for granted that JR doesn't tell PR of the prior molestation. But then we are back to staging for the sake of Burke, and I've already outlined why I'm skeptical about that. What mother's natural instinct would be to stage a crime scene - including tying the end of the "garrote" around a stick while looking at your dead daughter?

Even if JR cons PR into going along with the staging "to protect Burke" she must surely figure out later that something more was at stake. At that point it's probable that she talks to authorities.

It might fit the evidence, and I can't say that it's impossible, but my gut says it's highly improbable. I think PR was far more involved than just being a mom who got talked into helping with a cover-up to protect her son.
 
does anyone know more about this?TIA

ST,page 108

"An unusual 'swipe' was discovered on the white door of the small basement room where Jonbenet had been found,..."
 
That is rather insulting to suggest that RDI blame the parents because they are rich and we are jealous. We don't hate them because we envy them. We blame them because that is where the evidence leads us.

Yeah, that one was cheap, DD. Which is a real shame, because I actually agree with what Murri has to say about Burke. Far as I'm concerned, he's off-limits.
 
my bold

There is no evidence against any of the Rs.

Oh, no? How much time have you got, Murri? I'd need a separate thread for this.

Actually, I've decided to limit myself to 20 items just so we're not here the rest of the week:

Here goes:

  • 1) Fibers from the sweater Patsy Ramsey was known to have worn that night were found on the sticky side of the duct tape over JonBenet's mouth, inside the blanket that JonBenet was wrapped up in, and were found inside the little box that Patsy Ramsey kept her art supplies in. She cannot account for this in a coherent way.

    2) Patsy claimed that she saw the ransom letter on the spiral staircase and stepped over it before turning to see what it was. The police later conducted an experiment where they tried to recreate her story. None of the police officers could do it without falling. Again, her story makes no sense.

    3) The police went over Patsy Ramsey's credit card records. The records said that she had made some purchases from McGuckin's in the weeks leading up to the killing. The prices on the items matched the prices of the tape and the cord.

    4) Burke Ramsey mentioned that whoever killed JonBenet took out a knife. At the time, that was not a publicly released fact. But a knife was involved. Burke Ramsey had a Swiss army knife, but he had a habit of whittling with it inside the house and leaving wood shavings all over, so Linda Hoffman-Pugh, the family housekeeper, took it away from him and put in a cabinet in the basement where he couldn't get to it. Only Burke, Linda Hoffman-Pugh, and Patsy knew where it was. The knife was not used as a weapon on JonBenet, but it was found near her body.

    5) JonBenet's body was treated tenderly after death, wrapped in a blanket like a papoose with her favorite nightgown inside with her.

    6) The garrote was used from behind so the killer could avoid eye contact, typical of someone who cares for the victim. It also allows for not touching the victim's body.

    7) The autopsy report noted that JonBenet's wrists were tied with the same kind of cord that the ligature was made out of. It lists the length of cord between each wrist as 15-1/2 inches long. That's over a foot of space. Her arms were not tied together. They weren't tied behind her. The extra length wasn't attached to anything. There was over a foot of space between her arms! You're telling me that would have restrained her? Not only that, the cuffs on her wrists were so loose that they left no marks. One of them slipped right off of her arm when John Ramsey carried her up the stairs.

    8) JonBenet had tape on her mouth when she was found. I guess this was supposed to give the impression that she had been gagged, but again, whoever did it did a lousy job. For one thing, it was not tied around her head. It wasn't even a long strip. It was a small square of tape. Thomas, in his book, describes what the forensic technicians found on the tape. They discovered that it contained a perfect print of JonBenet's lips. She had not made any attempt to fight against it. It also had bloody mucous from JonBenet's nose under it. The logical conclusion is that it had been put on after JonBenet was dead.

    9) The ransom note contains motives that conflict with the crime and with each other. Pedophiles don't leave ransom notes.

    10) When Patsy Ramsey greeted police on the morning after Christmas, she had on the same red sweater and black pants that she had worn to the party the night before. Her explanation has always been that since she wore them for only a short time, they were perfectly good to wear again. This does not jibe with what others have claimed. The family housekeeper, Linda Hoffman-Pugh, has claimed that the idea of wearing the same clothes twice in a row was repellent to Patsy. She had a full closet full of clothes and was described by her stepson, John Andrew Ramsey, as "flashy." Apparently, word reached her ears that the police were looking askance at this little fact, because she showed up to an interview wearing the same outfit she'd worn at a television appearance the day before. I forget specifically when this was, but Det. Thomas describes it in his own book. Her wearing the same clothes suggests she never went to sleep that night. Denver Post columnist Chuck Green wrote in December of 2006 that the investigators, having inspected her bedroom, felt "that her side of the Ramsey bed hadn't been slept in."

    11) Of all the examiners who studied the ransom note, not one could eliminate Patsy Ramsey as the author. Several highly-respected examiners, OTOH, said flat-out that she is the writer. Her own mother and sisters said it looked like her writing, as well.

    12) The cord around JonBenet's neck had a fair amount of slack in it between where it was tied to the cord and where it met her neck. To use it effectively, the person would have to pull the cord up over their head almost; or wrap it around their arm. Not a very practical job, on the whole. The autopsy photos present a grim and grisly image of JonBenet's neck squeezed into an hourglass from the strangulation. To the eye, it looks horrific. But the autopsy reveals that there were no marks on JonBenet's tongue or on the inside of her mouth that would indicate her to have fought her killer. The report also reveals that the larynx, the strap muscles of the neck and the hyoid bone were all undamaged. Also, the little girl's hair was tied into both the neck knot and the handle knot. This means that the garrote was made on her body, not prepared ahead of time.

    13) The vast majority of pathologists claim that JB's head was smashed long before any strangulation occurred. It makes no sense for an intruder to hang around to stage sexual assault and strangulation after that.

    14) JonBenet was most likely assaulted vaginally with the paintbrush handle, but the damage to her vagina was minimal. A true sexual predator would have done FAR more damage.

    15) The profilers claimed that the person who wrote the ransom note was either a female or a very genteel male, 35-45 years-old, who grew up and went to school in the American South in the 1960s and 1970s. The note contains several grammatical touches that are not common among younger writers, such as putting periods between the letters of acronyms, which Patsy was known to do. The note also contains phrases like "fat cat" and "use good Southern common sense," which were known to be spoken to John Ramsey by Nedra Paugh, Patsy's mother.

    16) In 1997, a picture of JonBenet in the now-legendary Showgirl outfit turned up and it showed JonBenet with a huge, angry-looking bruise on her arm. In June 1998, a photo of Patsy and JonBenet was shown where Patsy could be seen holding JonBenet's arm so hard that her fingernails were digging into the arm.

    17) No less than eight child abuse experts independently concluded that JonBenet had been abused sexually over a period of time. They pointed to specific issues like hymen damage, tissue erosion, and toughening, known as scarring. She also had severe bed-wetting and soiling problems, which are often a sign of an abused child.

    18) Fibers from the Israeli-made black shirt John Ramsey was wearing at Fleet White's party were found in a rather compromising area: JonBenet's underwear.

    19) JonBenet was redressed after she was killed. What intruder would CARE about that?

    19) Pineapple was found inside JonBenet's small intestine at the autopsy. The average rate of digestion for pineapple is two hours. Now, the Ramseys have always said that JonBenet fell asleep in the car on the way home and remained asleep until she was killed, but she would have had to have eaten it sometime after they got home.

    20) The Ramseys' stories are filled with inconsistencies. Most notably, about the heart drawn on JB's hand, Burke's voice on the 911 tape, and the ability to hear sounds within the house. The spiral iron staircase, for example, was horrendously noisy.
 
OTG,

(From the blogger who doesn't blog too much:)...I'm following this 'case' since the day one, from the first TV report...was probably the first buyer of PMPT and ST books:)..., watched every R's interviews, read every WEB blog/forum...For the last couple weeks, your posts got my attention and I was following your analysis very carefully, waiting for conclusion. By the way, IMO, your analytical ability, written structural 'presentation' and communication skills/ethics are absolutely excellent! Now, regarding your 'conclusion'. Some has asked you very good question: why 10 yo male child would play the 'sexual' game using such a complicated 'adult' horror setting described in your analysis (instead of playing 'nice doctors' game)? This is a valid question which probably can be answered by analyzing what kind of information about 'restraining people by cord' was available to BR in 1996. What about the computer games BR likes to play at that time? If we can find at least one game who has such a 'restraining people by cord' scenario (not necessarily for the sexual needs) available in 1996 - maybe it COULD be the answer. Otherwise, why use such a complicated by cord manipulation: tide the hands, go over some supportive pipe (by the way, IMO, the fact that her hands were in high-up position is the weakest point in theory that she was killed laying on her back or stomach), place some kind of loop on her neck (reminds me of the choker to restrain the dogs)...all of these are such a complicated 'mechanism' build by the sickening-adult-driven imagination....but, if this 'mechanism' was introduced to the child as the 'norm' in some kind of computer game then your analysis has foundation. You see, I believe that this case will be solved (if ever!) by unlocking the 'individual psycho' which plays the major role in JBR murder. JMO. Of course, I do believe in scientific evidence...however, the human 'psycho' is the key for me. Therefore, RN is one of the best 'treasures' in this case. Again, IMO:)...

I must say, it’s nice to see an OpenMind4U. We need more of that. And thank you for the compliments.

As to the why you and others might ask, I’m afraid I have no answers. I look at the evidence first, and see if there is a scenario that fits. If we can’t logically conclude from the evidence alone a definite answer, we have to theorize. That’s all my conclusion is -- a theory, and based on that theory, I tried to fit the who into the theory. The who could be John, Patsy, Burke, or yes, even an intruder. Since we don’t have a confession (other than :laugh:John Karr’s) that gives us a provable answer, we can only theorize. I am certainly open any other theory based on what I feel is solid evidence. In fact, I will even say, I hope there is a better theory because I don’t really want to believe mine. But wanting is not enough in my mind to exclude the possibility of someone based only on his/her age, and then letting the evidence speak to the nature of what happened.

Why would Burke act out this way? Had he heard something from an older friend that would cause his curiosity about such things? Did he see something in a movie, a video game, or read it in one of his parents’ crime novels? You might just as well ask (which I have) why that particular paintbrush was chosen. There are certainly nicer looking brushes in Patsy’s tote. I can’t see any others in the pictures we have available that are as old looking with the finish coming off. Was it just a random choice? Was it somewhere else other than in the tote when it was selected? Again, we just don’t know the answers to so many questions.

Yes, I agree that the RN is important, but since we know that we can’t take it at face value (kidnapping), we have to look at it as staging. Who wrote it? What was its purpose (since we know it was not really a ransom note)? That has all been debated since it was first leaked to the public, and is still being debated to this day. Just look at some of the threads right here on this forum on that very subject. Handwriting analysts normally look at writing samples to verify if someone actually wrote something that might have been forged by someone else. IOW, they are usually trying to see if something presented as the writing of an individual has been faked by another individual to copy their handwriting (e.g., a forged will, forged checks, a forged signature on a contract). On the other hand, in trying to analyze writing that has been written with the purpose of disguising the handwriting, the task becomes much more difficult. The best that can be done there is to say that a certain individual cannot be excluded as the author, which is of course, what CBI did with Patsy.

If handwriting alone is not enough to determine an author, then you have to go to the language, the phrases used, misspelled words, and even more nuanced clues to try and determine the author. Even then, your conclusion will not be enough to prove authorship in a court of law -- only the court of public opinion. And even then, if you determine the author with any amount of confidence, all you have done is proven the authorship; and the author might not be the person responsible for the death (and IMO, that is the case here.). Also IMO, we know with a certain degree of confidence who wrote the RN, so then we have to ask why.
.
 
This completely ignores the fact that ANYONE could have entered the house and committed the crime, from near or far. As HOTYH pointed out, it was not an impenetrable fortress -- it had windows, doors (and an open balcony).

None of which matters. It's not enough to say someone COULD have come in. You have to prove someone DID come in, and IDI has never been able to do that. Until they can, all of their "evidence" remains random items.

The Rs, OTOH, CAN be proven to have been there. Everything has to be taken in that context.
 
None of which matters. It's not enough to say someone COULD have come in. You have to prove someone DID come in, and IDI has never been able to do that. Until they can, all of their "evidence" remains random items.

The Rs, OTOH, CAN be proven to have been there. Everything has to be taken in that context.

SuperDave,

Well said. IDI theory is so full of holes, it requires abuse denial, invented evidence, eventually painting any IDI into a corner where they start citing nonsense in support of their theory.


.
 
OTG,

I perfectly understand why and how you came to the BDI conclusion/theory. I should be honest and explain myself. You see, I'm not convinced that cord on her hands and on the broken wood stick (paintbrush) have been used for the 'staging' purpose. And I'm not convinced that PR just 'snapped' on X-mas night because JBR wet her bed.

What I do strongly believe is that some kind of sexually-related 'game' has been unexpectedly (accidently) ended by the hard blow to JBR head. So, we agreed on the most important ground:). Here is not my theory but rather cord-related analysis.

IMO, inside of Ramsey house, was NOT premeditated murder; there was NOT kidnapping attempt and there was NOT rage-sadistic-murder....and there was the 'staging' with many elements involved (cleaning, re-dressing, placing in blanket, moving to WC, writing RN)...but not using cord for stangulation. And because I do believe that at this unfortunate night the sexual game has been played...and 'how' this game was played can point us to 'who' play it. Therefore, your 'cords and knots' discussion was very important to me. Why? I see this 'game' as the 'barbie doll' game. If you ever bought the 'barbie dolls' or any other dolls (by having two daughters myself, you can imagine how many dolls I've been purchased:), you've been noticed how dolls are attached to the box (usually, their head and hands are fastened by the wire-type and twisted on the back of the box). Now, we know that JBR hands weren't really tide to each other; the cord on her hands has losely tide knots and she was found with her hands in up-high position. Her neck injury has been consistent with the 'behind her back' strangulation (I know, I know you pointed to another possibility). Do you remember the picture of WC with all these metal screen window/doors in it? I hope these screen frames have been inspected because they could play the 'box' role into which JBR hands and neck were tide. If you understand what I'm talking about, you'll see how all these knots and cords were used by keeping JBR in standing-up position and at the same time secured her hands in up-high position without need to tide them at her wrists, next to each other...they'll be 'fastened' on the back of the screen frame...therefore cord has so many 'extra' inches on hands and neck knots...Again, this is just my vision of 'how'...and 'hence' here is the explanation of hearing the metal scratching sound by the neighbor across...and here is your possibility of falling down and accidently 'hanging/strangulation'..abrasions and urine leakage on-front and many other things...just a scenario without any forensic evidence...is it possible?
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
187
Guests online
3,314
Total visitors
3,501

Forum statistics

Threads
604,123
Messages
18,167,934
Members
231,970
Latest member
Afrench
Back
Top