Court Appearances

[nobodyzgirl]

you know, i was wondering about that myself and if this meeting is kind of like when someone is indicted in the US by a grand jury.
i have no knowlegde of the law aside from what i find when i google, so i'm wondering if these meetings are to decide if there is enough evidence to go to trial or where plea bargains are worked out?

someone told me that these meetings are never publicized but we may learn the outcome on Nov. 12 2009, MR's next court appearance.

The meetings are never publicized. They are only between Crown, Defense and the judge.

 

[ChaChaCha]

http://www.cjbk.com/news/565/1021458

The lawyer for the man accused of kidnapping and murdering eight-year-old Victoria Stafford is asking for the public's ``patience'' .

Following a brief video court appearance today by Michael Rafferty, lawyer Laura Giordano said the public needs ``to keep an open mind'' about her client.

She said that so far, ``only one side of the story has been told.''

 

[nonfictionrocks]

TLM's next court date is this Friday the 27th - I wonder if she will enter a plea?

 

[nobodyzgirl]

TLM's next court date is this Friday the 27th - I wonder if she will enter a plea?

It will likely be just another remand, though it would be nice if she did plea. This is just my opinion, I can see TLM's counsel trying to make a plea bargain and if Crown says no, I could see her pleading not guilty and taking her chances with a jury.

 

[maxfactor]

It will likely be just another remand, though it would be nice if she did This is just my opinion, I can see TLM's counsel trying to make a plea bargain and if Crown says no, I could see her pleading not guilty and taking her chances with a jury.

I agree with you! I somehow don't think she will plead guilty. There's always the possibility that things happened just like she said and she will want to get a lesser sentence. I could be very wrong but my gut is telling me that MR asked her to do this. Still makes her guilty as hell but we will see!

 

[nonfictionrocks]

I agree with you! I somehow don't think she will plead guilty. There's always the possibility that things happened just like she said and she will want to get a lesser sentence. I could be very wrong but my gut is telling me that MR asked her to do this. Still makes her guilty as hell but we will see!

I can easily see TLM pleading not guilty too. The video footage of her is not extremely clear and a lawyer could claim that it could have been various other women, LE initially thought it could be TM then her buddy Sara and a few other women that were picked up all the while TLM was detained (reasonable doubt here for a jury). Or, because she did not actually lead LE directly to TS but in the general vicinity, she could claim that MR made her look away from the road or avert her eyes, poor abused thing that she is (again some reasonable doubt for a jury). What we can reasonably assume here is that whether TLM pleads guilty or not guity she will be putting the entire blame on MR.

I tend to agree with Cha in her belief that MR probably has sung like a bird already.

Maxfactor, I too could be very wrong but my gut feeling is telling me that TLM is not only the instigator of this plan but also the murderer. Unless we hear anything more from a reliable source, which for the life of me I cannot figure who that might be right now, I guess we have to wait until the trials.

 

[Kamille]

It’s interesting how we’ve all come together here and read all of the “rumours” and facts about this case and yet we’ve still come up with a few different ways of looking at this. Some feel that TLM is the main instigator and others feel it is MR. I think others believe that there is a bigger picture in all of it. Just goes to show how difficult it is going to be to sit on a jury in this case.

Personally, IMO, I still contend that MR is a sexual deviant and a deceiving con man who was most likely able to convince a messed up young girl to do something for him “out of love”. I think her behaviour after the fact indicates that at least she had no idea that this abduction would lead to a murder. I actually don’t think he intended it to happen either. I see this as more of a “grooming” exercise gone wrong. Sexual predators have to start somewhere (assuming this was a first time for either of them) and if the intent was for them to gain a young girl’s trust and initiate some sexual advances towards her, then by her mother’s own admission, they picked the wrong child. From all accounts, Tori would have given them a very hard time and MR at least would have known he‘d be busted for the attempt.

I think TLM was freaked out by what happened but I also think she was desperate to hang onto MR and kept quiet until LE pointed out to her that he was not as enamoured with her as she might have been led to believe. At that point I’d assume she got angry and was resigned to the fact that once again someone had used and deceived her. Her background suggests that she was used to being treated poorly by the people who claimed to love her. She had nothing to lose really by telling her version of the events. Most of her life has been spent in and out of detention situations and there is really nothing on the outside for her. No school, no job, no family other than a mother who was by no means a good one and now no “great” boyfriend. She probably finds some comfort in the structure of a detention environment and the best way to get revenge on that “boyfriend” was to tell LE what happened. Did she downplay her role when telling the story? Maybe. But then again, maybe her role really was just as the person who enticed Tori to go with her to meet her “friend“ and then an accessory after the fact to hiding the body. Either way, the charges are appropriate because she is just as responsible for Tori’s death so she should be charged the same as MR.

MR’s lawyer is telling people to be patient, we’ve only heard one side of the “story”. But here’s the thing… TLM told her side with no legal representation so any manipulation of the story was done strictly on her own. And LE are very good at poking holes in a badly told story. Apparently pretty much everything she said happened matched up to the evidence that they had collected and they were able to collect more from her version. I don’t think TLM is savvy enough to be able to con and deceive LE with a story full of lies. MR on the other hand, has not told his side of the story and he has good legal representation, which he even changed out to get the best he could, who have upwards of a year to polish up that side of the story by getting all of the evidence against him and coming up with ways in which to manipulate that evidence. Standard defence practice that TLM doesn’t have the benefit of considering she implicated herself right from the beginning.

My money is on TLM’s version being as close to what actually happened as we’re ever going to know.

 

[Jenny44]

Hi Kamille, ITA with your "version" and I am extremely curious to hear MR's side of the story, (also the evidence that LE have) to be able to put this sad crime all together.

 

[nobodyzgirl]

http://www.oxfordreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2196413

The woman accused of murdering Victoria "Tori" Stafford made a brief court appearance via video link Friday morning, only to learn that the matter had been adjourned until Dec. 16.

I have had ongoing discussions with Miss LeRoy about this matter," said Crown Attorney Geoff Beasley. "There have been ongoing discussions in respect to the massive disclosure."

 

[nonfictionrocks]

http://www.oxfordreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2196413

The woman accused of murdering Victoria "Tori" Stafford made a brief court appearance via video link Friday morning, only to learn that the matter had been adjourned until Dec. 16.

I have had ongoing discussions with Miss LeRoy about this matter," said Crown Attorney Geoff Beasley. "There have been ongoing discussions in respect to the massive disclosure."

BBM

This line again reinforces my belief that there is way more to the "troubled teenage girl abducts a little girl for her evil boyfriend" story. I wouldn't underestimate the deviousness of TLM; she is a lot more savvy and probably smarter than most of the characters introduced so far. JMO

 

[nobodyzgirl]

BBM

This line again reinforces my belief that there is way more to the "troubled teenage girl abducts a little girl for her evil boyfriend" story. I wouldn't underestimate the deviousness of TLM; she is a lot more savvy and probably smarter than most of the characters introduced so far. JMO

ITA NFR. I think she has learned a few tricks, given that she's been in and out of detention centres and likely has a pretty good idea of how the system works. The statement about numerous discussions about disclosure makes me think that her lawyer is trying to work a plea and getting a reduced sentence - that's JMO however.

 

[Kamille]

BBM

This line again reinforces my belief that there is way more to the "troubled teenage girl abducts a little girl for her evil boyfriend" story. I wouldn't underestimate the deviousness of TLM; she is a lot more savvy and probably smarter than most of the characters introduced so far. JMO

BBM


That’s true. I don’t see her as being an “innocent” participant in whatever the plan was at all. TLM herself, as has been reported, was the victim of sexual assault at least once as a young child. And I’ve not read anything that indicated that she received any counselling from that nor was the perpetrator charged with the crime. The only thing I’ve read is that her mother “kept him away from her”. What kind of message is that to a young girl? And did her mother really keep him away from her? Who knows. Considering her mother’s lifestyle and career choice, there could have been other instances of her being “groomed” and ultimately abused by the various men in her mother’s life. So with that in mind, it could very well have been her idea to entice a child for MR. She may even have been well versed in just how to accomplish this if she herself had been a victim. Who really knows what this girl endured while living with her mother. I can only imagine. But whatever happened to her growing up, I'm sure it helped shape the person who she ultimately became. And considering that her mother appears to have made a living off at least one aspect of the sex trade, and she was assaulted at least once by a man in her mother's life, her views on the sexual abuse of children might be pretty skewed.

What I don’t think she considered was that if the child was not easily coerced into their “game“, what the ultimate possibilities were when that child might have reacted rather loudly and violently to her situation. Neither I think did he. And I don’t think either of them were prepared for what ultimately did happen, whatever that was. If this was a planned abduction and murder, I don’t see the need for the stop at HD in the middle of the disposal, they would have been prepared. Of course we have no idea what they stopped for but you’d think that if the murder was planned, they wouldn’t be stopping to do some shopping with a body in the car, if that is in fact what happened.

If she’s lying about anything here, I’d say it was about who’s idea it was to do this in the first place. The rest of the story probably played out pretty much as she claims it did.

Just my opinion only of course.

 

[nonfictionrocks]

ITA NFR. I think she has learned a few tricks, given that she's been in and out of detention centres and likely has a pretty good idea of how the system works. The statement about numerous discussions about disclosure makes me think that her lawyer is trying to work a plea and getting a reduced sentence - that's JMO however.

I agree with you NBG. However I have one question: during MTR's pre-trial meetings would TLM's lawyer be privy right away to what is discussed during these sessions. I know that the Crown must provide entire disclosure to both accused. I am under the impression that neither accused have to provide any details of their position to the Crown (unless they are looking to make a deal) and if this is true, neither defense lawyers would know what tale of woe the other will be coming out of their corner with. With neither set of lawyers getting rich on on either of the accused here and, if the evidence is so "cut and dry", what possibly could be the reason for delaying the trials other than behind the scenes deal making.

 

[nonfictionrocks]

BBM


That’s true. I don’t see her as being an “innocent” participant in whatever the plan was at all. TLM herself, as has been reported, was the victim of sexual assault at least once as a young child. And I’ve not read anything that indicated that she received any counselling from that nor was the perpetrator charged with the crime. The only thing I’ve read is that her mother “kept him away from her”. What kind of message is that to a young girl? And did her mother really keep him away from her? Who knows. Considering her mother’s lifestyle and career choice, there could have been other instances of her being “groomed” and ultimately abused by the various men in her mother’s life. So with that in mind, it could very well have been her idea to entice a child for MR. She may even have been well versed in just how to accomplish this if she herself had been a victim. Who really knows what this girl endured while living with her mother. I can only imagine. But whatever happened to her growing up, I'm sure it helped shape the person who she ultimately became. And considering that her mother appears to have made a living off at least one aspect of the sex trade, and she was assaulted at least once by a man in her mother's life, her views on the sexual abuse of children might be pretty skewed.

What I don’t think she considered was that if the child was not easily coerced into their “game“, what the ultimate possibilities were when that child might have reacted rather loudly and violently to her situation. Neither I think did he. And I don’t think either of them were prepared for what ultimately did happen, whatever that was. If this was a planned abduction and murder, I don’t see the need for the stop at HD in the middle of the disposal, they would have been prepared. Of course we have no idea what they stopped for but you’d think that if the murder was planned, they wouldn’t be stopping to do some shopping with a body in the car, if that is in fact what happened.

If she’s lying about anything here, I’d say it was about who’s idea it was to do this in the first place. The rest of the story probably played out pretty much as she claims it did.

Just my opinion only of course.

BBM

Again, I could be wrong but I don't think that murder was ever part of whatever the plan was supposed to be and that none of the players considered it could be a possible outcome either. I also am inclined to believe that if it were not for Grandma walking into the Police Station that day in April and reporting TS missing, this forum would not exist today. JMO

 

[nobodyzgirl]

I agree with you NBG. However I have one question: during MTR's pre-trial meetings would TLM's lawyer be privy right away to what is discussed during these sessions. I know that the Crown must provide entire disclosure to both accused. I am under the impression that neither accused have to provide any details of their position to the Crown (unless they are looking to make a deal) and if this is true, neither defense lawyers would know what tale of woe the other will be coming out of their corner with. With neither set of lawyers getting rich on on either of the accused here and, if the evidence is so "cut and dry", what possibly could be the reason for delaying the trials other than behind the scenes deal making.

TLM's lawyer would not be informed of anything that is discussed during those meetings.

You are correct, NFR, Crown must disclose everything to defence, though there is no obligation on the part of the defence to disclose anything to the Crown. Ultimately the onus lies on the Crown to prove their case and it's the defence's basic job to refute all evidence.

I don't think they are purposely delaying the trials, it's just how the wheels justice spin in Canada - very slow. My opinion is that TLM's lawyer is trying to get a plea of some sort, or having the charges reduced. MTR's lawyer said that they were pleading not guilty, so it makes me wonder if all the evidence they have against him is just circumstantial, or it's just a game they are playing in the media so they don't show their hand to TLM's lawyer, meanwhile trying to work a deal of some sort out with the Crown - I guess only the parties involved really know what's going on.

 

[dilbert]

i find it interesting that people keep discussing the pedophile aspect of this. there have been no sexual charges, only abduction and murder.
the police have never stated this was a sexually based abduction. their words were "nefarious", and even then i don't remember that word coming out of det. renton's mouth, wasn't it a reporter?
possibly there is no evidence to prove a sexual assault occured but my opinion is that sex was not the motive here.

nefarious,who uses that word anymore?

–adjective
extremely wicked or villainous; iniquitous: a nefarious plot.

doesn't sound sexual to me.

 

[antiquegirl]

If she’s lying about anything here, I’d say it was about who’s idea it was to do this in the first place. The rest of the story probably played out pretty much as she claims it did.

(Respectfully snipped and BBM)

We really don't know what TLM has claimed and whether she recanted or changed any of those claims in the past few months. If you're referring to the very early reports about "sexual purposes", (a) this was only mentioned once and never directly by LE, but by reporters rushing to get this story out, (b) the word "sexual" was never repeated after these initial reports, but changed to "nefarious", which could mean anything, (c) it was not specified whose "sexual/nefarious purposes" Tori was intended for. Here are some of the ambiguous reports shortly after the arrests. I have underlined the notable points:

"Although police officially won't comment upon the couple's alleged motive, The Globe and Mail has learned that they believe the crime was sexual in nature."

http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090520.tori21/BNStory/National

"The station also reported that “police sources” say that the girl's abduction was not a random act but being viewed as an "opportunistic crime" and Tori may have allegedly been sought for "nefarious" or sexual purposes."

http://www.torontosun.com/news/cana...sun.html?cid=MKTNBPTorontoSUN___EN20080611NB3

What I'm saying is that until the public gets full disclosure from either a confession or trial testimony, we can't say for sure what exactly TLM has "claimed". About the only thing that's certain is that, based on the helicopter rides, she must have admitted to at least having first-hand knowledge of where the remains were left.

JMO

 

[dilbert]

thanks for those quotes AG, i was looking for a few to post.

 

[antiquegirl]

thanks for those quotes AG, i was looking for a few to post.

Glad to help.

The one thing I haven't been able to find is where TLM was purportedly claiming that she walked away from the car while MTR did whatever he was supposed to be doing - whether it was a sexual assault, the murder, or both - wasn't made clear if I remember correctly. Does anyone recall where this rumour originated? I find it difficult to believe that it came from LE directly, as this is not something they would share, even if they had proof.

And for the record, I don't believe that TLM walked away from anything, except maybe the truth.

JMO

 

[dilbert]

Glad to help.

The one thing I haven't been able to find is where TLM was purportedly claiming that she walked away from the car while MTR did whatever he was supposed to be doing - whether it was a sexual assault, the murder, or both - wasn't made clear if I remember correctly. Does anyone recall where this rumour originated? I find it difficult to believe that it came from LE directly, as this is not something they would share, even if they had proof.

And for the record, I don't believe that TLM walked away from anything, except maybe the truth.

JMO

i'm pretty sure that was a Christie Blatchford article where it said that. i don't recall if it was from "sources" or where she got it from. going to try and find it (although several of her articles have been pulled)