CT - Five die in Stamford Christmas Day fire 2011.12.25

[Inspector Gidget]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...who-lost-3-daughters-in-fire-attempts-suicide

"Report: Mom who lost 3 daughters in fire attempts suicide"

It will be a rare occasion in my life when I say this, but it would seem to be more merciful to let her end her suffering. I know that in her circumstances I would not want to live either.

I can't begin to imagine having to go through this,losing it all in one day.This is just too much for anyone to come to grips with and I would have to check myself into the psych ward.Because I would be inconsolable and downright crazy.She will need meds and therapy for a long time to get through was has happened.I hope she gets professional help,friends can only do so much.

 

[jjenny]

I imagine part of Dr. Petit's will came from the desire to see the perpetrators punished. In this case the "perpetrator" was a loved one. This lady lost her parents, her children, and in essence her lover in one fell swoop. And I imagine there is a great deal of self-blame going on as well.

Are we seriously going to advocate suicide?
Really?

 

[Trident]

Are we seriously going to advocate suicide?
Really?

I don't see anyone advocating suicide, but I do see people empathizing with a woman who has lost everything important in her life.

Understanding why one might want to die is not the same as standing beneath a building screaming, "jump, jump,", to someone on a ledge. To me it is simply understanding why one might not wish to live and allowing the sufferer to have/act on her own legitimate feelings.

:cow:

 

[jjenny]

I don't see anyone advocating suicide, but I do see people empathizing with a woman who has lost everything important in her life.

Understanding why one might want to die is not the same as standing beneath a building screaming, "jump, jump,", to someone on a ledge. To me it is simply understanding why one might not wish to live and allowing the sufferer to have/act on her own legitimate feelings.

:cow:

Oh I see. So she should be allowed to be alone in the room with a rope, considering we should allow her to act on her own legitimate feelings?

 

[HMSHood]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...who-lost-3-daughters-in-fire-attempts-suicide

"Report: Mom who lost 3 daughters in fire attempts suicide"

It will be a rare occasion in my life when I say this, but it would seem to be more merciful to let her end her suffering. I know that in her circumstances I would not want to live either.

Don't take this that I am advocating suicide. I am not surprised that this happened since Madonna Badger lost three of her daughters and parents. She likely has survivor's guilt. It has to be worst thing to go through, especially losing a child. They parents grieving the loss of their child is the worst form of grief. As for losing parents, as sad as it is, it is a rite of passage for many.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

Are we seriously going to advocate suicide?
Really?

My mother committed suicide, so I don't think we can say I am "advocating" suicide, but since you asked: I am saying that sometimes we as a culture force ourselves into the lives of others and make them do what we would have them do...in this case live when the rest of her family has died. Do we really have the right to do that?

 

[jjenny]

My mother committed suicide, so I don't think we can say I am "advocating" suicide, but since you asked: I am saying that sometimes we as a culture force ourselves into the lives of others and make them do what we would have them do...in this case live when the rest of her family has died. Do we really have the right to do that?

And if we do that, we do it for a reason. With appropriate treatment for depression a person can change their mind. Frankly if a person really wants to kill themselves they probably will. Attempted suicide is a cry for help-this person wants help.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

And if we do that, we do it for a reason. With appropriate treatment for depression a person can change their mind. Frankly if a person really wants to kill themselves they probably will. Attempted suicide is a cry for help-this person wants help.

I'm a social worker in the mental health field, and I agree with what you are saying...for most cases. But I am also throwing out there for the sake of discussion that we give people the choice to terminate pregnancies and to die with dignity when they are physically ill, but we think we have the right to force someone to go on living in a (thankfully rare) case like the one being discussed.

A suicide attempt is not always a cry for help. Sometimes it is what it is...a person is tired of living with utter pain and wishes to move on. We allow terminally ill patients this courtesy. We used to force them to live out their last days in pain, with hoses and needles and bedpans being the hallmarks of their last moments. Now we accept their right to die with dignity, and DNRs and living wills are accepted. Why do we think we have the right to "save" someone in a situation like this woman? Can we begin to imagine the agony she is feeling? Ah, but she's not terminally ill, we say. Ah, but in her mind and in her heart, she may well be. We cannot guarantee she will ever feel one ounce better than she does now. Who are we to say that this woman will ever have a single "better day?" Medication and therapy do not always work. Self-medication can lead to even more misery.

I'm not talking about the teenage boy whose girlfriend breaks up with him and who thinks there will never be a better day. I am talking complete and total guilt and pain...pain no doubt every bit as unbearable as terminal cancer...the kind of pain this woman must be feeling.

I've survived the death of one child, and it was the hardest thing I've every had to go through. I dragged on for the sake of my surviving child. Now I have three grandchildren so if, God forbid, something happened to my son I'd drag on for the grandkids. But if something happened to all of them...whoosh...they were gone in an instant...you'd better believe I'd want to follow them. There would be no pills, no therapists, no Biblical passages that would take that pain away.

Which brings me back to my original musing of whether it would be more merciful to "let" someone go be where they want to be rather than force them to live a life of hell on earth.

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

Stamford Fire Probe To Continue To Mid-February

"The investigation into a Christmas fire that killed five family members will not wrap up this week as expected, a police official said."

"We're a week and a half out," Capt. Richard Conklin said Thursday."

"Among other things, investigators are looking into reports that battery-operated smoke detectors had been removed from the Shippan Avenue house before the fire that killed the daughters and parents of ad executive Madonna Badger. Her boyfriend, Michael Borcina, had been doing work on the house and was in the process of wiring smoke detectors and fire alarms, a fire official said last month."

"Improper disposal of ashes from the fireplace is believed to have sparked the fire. Fire officials said Borcina removed the embers, put them in a bag and placed the bag in a mud room in back of the house. The flames traveled quickly through the old, Victorian home, which lacked fire stops."

I have no idea what a fire stop is.....will have to google it....

http://articles.courant.com/2012-02...tors-christmas-fire-detectors-and-fire-alarms

 

[jjenny]

wikipedia has a section on fire stops. its a passive fire protection system used to seal openings. Basically something that can slow the spread of the fire.
Sounds like quite a bit of carelessness went on in that house-why remove battery operated fire alarms, if those reports are correct? Why remove ashes and place them apparently in the bag? Santa just doesn't sound like a good enough reason. If you are that concerned about Santa being hurt by smoldering ashes, shouldn't you actually be concerned about house going up in flames instead?

 

[panthera]

I can't begin to imagine having to go through this,losing it all in one day.This is just too much for anyone to come to grips with and I would have to check myself into the psych ward.Because I would be inconsolable and downright crazy.She will need meds and therapy for a long time to get through was has happened.I hope she gets professional help,friends can only do so much.

Christmas will never be the same either, no matter how long she lives. Instead of a joyous occasion it will be a haunting reminder of this tragedy. My heart goes out to her and hopefully she will find the faith and strength to get through each day, and each year.

 

[Reader]

Christmas will never be the same either, no matter how long she lives. Instead of a joyous occasion it will be a haunting reminder of this tragedy. My heart goes out to her and hopefully she will find the faith and strength to get through each day, and each year.

The same goes for the children's father...the anguish and grief on his face at the memorial was heartbreaking.

 

[panthera]

The same goes for the children's father...the anguish and grief on his face at the memorial was heartbreaking.

Absolutely. The one difference, of course, is that he wasn't there in the house when it happened. It could be a different type of anguish for him, in that he was powerless to do anything to help them, instead of being perhaps partially responsible for the event.



MOO

 

[elfie]

This news is a little older, but I didn't see it posted here:

http://www.wtnh.com/dpp/news/fairfield_cty/report-cops-not-consulted-in-demolition

Stamford, Conn. (WTNH) - Questions are being raised about the destruction of the house in Stamford where three children and their grandparents were killed in a Christmas Day fire.

According to a published report, the police were not consulted before the mansion was demolished and that could hinder their investigation.

It does seem that the home was razed awfully quickly. Glad that the investigation continues. I wonder if they are sifting through the ruins at all.

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

Madonna Badger’s Ex Husband Suing Over The Death Of His Three Daughters

http://www.hollywoodlife.com/2012/02/13/madonna-badger-fire-lawsuit/
"
Matthew filed papers in Stamford Probate Court recently, but his lawyer Richard Emery says Matthew “has no intention of suing his ex-wife.” But Richard is criticizing Madonna’s boyfriend, Michael Borcina, who was the contractor on the renovations at the home."

The $1.7 million home didn’t have working smoke detectors at the time of the fire, and Michael is the one who put still-smoldering ashes from the fireplace into a trash enclosure. The house also didn’t have a certificate of occupancy, and the last city inspection was early last summer."

“The fact is that Borcina was the contractor on the job,” says Richard. “He was aware of the dangers, or should have been aware of dangers, that a civilian would have been unaware of. The fact that kids were living in this house was unbelievable… I don’t hold Madonna Badger responsible for that at all because I can’t imagine she would have understood the immediacy of the dangers.”

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

Results of Stamford Fire Probe Sent to Prosecutor

http://www.thedailyweston.com/news/results-stamford-fire-probe-sent-prosecutor

"State's Attorney David Cohen received a “large and voluminous” report from the Stamford police on the Christmas Day fire that killed five people, Capt. Richard Conklin said. The report was hand-delivered Tuesday afternoon."

"The report contained statements from witnesses, family members and contractors; reports from Stamford Fire & Rescue and the building department; and his investigators' report, Conklin said. The materials Cohen received were about 90 percent of the investigation. With the large amount of information gathered, police wanted him to begin looking it over before the investigation was concluded, Conklin said."

"The police captain said that turning over information to the prosecutor does not mean criminal charges will be brought. Conklin said he does not expect to hear back from Cohen soon."

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

Conn. prosecutors meet with father of 3 girls killed in Christmas morning fire in Stamford

"Connecticut prosecutors have met with the father of three girls killed in a Christmas morning fire in Stamford as part of their investigation of the blaze."

"The Advocate of Stamford reports (http://bit.ly/xQu07J ) that prosecutors talked with Matthew Badger and his lawyer on Wednesday at Stamford Superior Court. Both sides declined to comment about the meeting."

http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/3d1bc92edbf9408ab53caac4fe5b5fc9/CT--Christmas-Morning-Fire/

 

[SwampMama]

I'm a social worker in the mental health field, and I agree with what you are saying...for most cases. But I am also throwing out there for the sake of discussion that we give people the choice to terminate pregnancies and to die with dignity when they are physically ill, but we think we have the right to force someone to go on living in a (thankfully rare) case like the one being discussed.

A suicide attempt is not always a cry for help. Sometimes it is what it is...a person is tired of living with utter pain and wishes to move on. We allow terminally ill patients this courtesy. We used to force them to live out their last days in pain, with hoses and needles and bedpans being the hallmarks of their last moments. Now we accept their right to die with dignity, and DNRs and living wills are accepted. Why do we think we have the right to "save" someone in a situation like this woman? Can we begin to imagine the agony she is feeling? Ah, but she's not terminally ill, we say. Ah, but in her mind and in her heart, she may well be. We cannot guarantee she will ever feel one ounce better than she does now. Who are we to say that this woman will ever have a single "better day?" Medication and therapy do not always work. Self-medication can lead to even more misery.

I'm not talking about the teenage boy whose girlfriend breaks up with him and who thinks there will never be a better day. I am talking complete and total guilt and pain...pain no doubt every bit as unbearable as terminal cancer...the kind of pain this woman must be feeling.

I've survived the death of one child, and it was the hardest thing I've every had to go through. I dragged on for the sake of my surviving child. Now I have three grandchildren so if, God forbid, something happened to my son I'd drag on for the grandkids. But if something happened to all of them...whoosh...they were gone in an instant...you'd better believe I'd want to follow them. There would be no pills, no therapists, no Biblical passages that would take that pain away.

Which brings me back to my original musing of whether it would be more merciful to "let" someone go be where they want to be rather than force them to live a life of hell on earth.

Wow, i wanted to defend your original statement but I see you need no help at all. I simply stand in awe of you ability to sum it up beautifully. I completely agree with everything you said. You said it perfectly.

 

[Reader]

Conn. prosecutor weighs charges in Christmas blaze

http://www.centurylink.net/news/read.php?rip_id=<D9T398H04@news.ap.org>&ps=1011&page=1

NEW HAVEN, Conn. (AP) — A prosecutor is deciding whether to file criminal charges in the deaths of three girls and their grandparents on Christmas morning in an accidental blaze that authorities say was started after a contractor discarded a bag of fireplace ashes at the tony shoreline home.
------

While investigators say the blaze was clearly accidental, it's not uncommon for people, including family members, to be charged with crimes such as involuntary manslaughter for unintentionally starting deadly fires.

David Cohen, who has been Stamford's top prosecutor for more than a decade, received a report from police investigators last week and has declined to comment on the case. He has worked on other high-profile cases, including a chimpanzee mauling in which he declined to pursue charges against the animal's owner. Attorneys who have worked with him say he won't be swayed by factors such as the family's affluence or the intense media scrutiny.

"His decision-making process is never a rush to judgment," said Howard Ehring, a Stamford public defender. "I've heard him say many times we don't want to prosecute an innocent person nor do we want to prosecute someone who is overcharged."

Authorities have said they believe Borcina placed the ashes in or near an entryway, near the trash of the Stamford home.
-----

In Connecticut, police say they haven't made a recommendation about possible criminal charges.

Legal experts say if Cohen decides to prosecute, potential charges could include reckless manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide. A manslaughter charge has a high standard in which authorities must show a person was aware of a substantial risk and disregarded it. For criminally negligent homicide, authorities must only prove that the person should have realized there was a danger, said William Dunlap, a Quinnipiac law professor.


More at link....

 

[Rhyme & Reason]

IDK how investigators can say it was "clearly accidental" since the house was torn down so quickly. There was nothing there to investigate, which means they are just taking his word for it.

Anyway, I really hope they charge Borcina with criminally negligent homicide, because yes, he certainly should have known the risk. You don't play around with people's lives like that.