Identified! CT - Stonington (Ledyard), WhtFem UP8909, 18-30, JNHS 1917 Class Ring, Lady Clairol hair roller set, May'74 - Linda Sue Childers

[fred&edna]

I noticed that venue opened in 1941. Don't know if CM Fox was the original owner or whatever...


Anyway, I noticed the venue featured country singers in the 1960's. Don't know what this place was like in 1970. Don't know if they still had live music or country music by 1970

Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if calls to Nashville were seeking country music artists for the venue.

From Official Patsy Cline FB Page: Log into Facebook

The Frontier Room, Trenton, NJ, USA Concert Setlists | setlist.fm

Get The Frontier Room, Trenton, NJ, USA setlists - view them, share them, discuss them with other The Frontier Room, Trenton, NJ, USA fans for free on setlist.fm!

www.setlist.fm

__________________
It looks like the bowling alley/frontier room are no longer in existence. Google maps shows nothing that resembles the venue. There is a USGS for a well at the location. But going back in maps to 2008 only shows a business park. Interactive Mapper - ScienceBase-Catalog

I found a NJ historical blog online years ago where the White Horse was discussed by people who remembered the venue. I messaged the owner asking if he would mention this young woman on his blog to see if jogged any memories. Sadly, he refused.

Yes, many of these things have been previously mentioned on the thread but the more info the better! We really need to combine all these bits of info to get a better picture of everything and everyone who came into contact with this UID... but just the thought of attempting this has always seemed overwhelming.

 

[fred&edna]

OK...I'm seeing a CM Fox Jr who died in 1982 in Trenton, Mercer, New Jersey, United States. (This is the township where the bowling alley was located)

He was born in 1900.
I think this might be the guy on the phone bill due to the location. (I found another one with same name NJ, but it was in anther part of the state. Much younger guy)

All I know is his birth, death and census records records.
Census records show him residing in Trenton, Mercer going back to 1930. Don't know anything else.

There is an obituary for him, but I think I would need to pay to access it.

I believe Fox's wife (or significant other) was a dressmaker who designed and made costumes for the dancers, servers, etc at the White Horse.

 

[Friday Fan]

I believe Fox's wife (or significant other) was a dressmaker who designed and made costumes for the dancers, servers, etc at the White Horse.

I still have no idea how this phone bill is even connected to this case. I do know Carl looked up some numbers in 2012. For instance if Wm J Fox Jr tried to call Donald Larkin (who was the MC at White Horse) in 1970, his PA number would have been reassigned long before 2012 because Donald moved to AZ in 1972.

So, some of the numbers called could be defunct and reassigned in 2012.


There is no documentation about why they think she made these phone calls?? Why would she be calling from a bowling alley over a period of time? And if they knew it was her, wouldn't they know her name? Or if she worked at the bowling alley and made those calls, would she have a name or at least an alias? Most of the calls seem like business calls to me.


Is it possible that someone who fit her description stopped by the bowling alley and made one call? Like in the case of, "Hey can I use your phone? I don't have any cash for the phone booth?" (Been there, done that many times myself!) The owner says, "Sure you can use my office phone" ..Heck even gas stations used to let me use their private phones all the time. (Local calls only though, although I did make a few collect calls)

I wonder if one of the numbers called on the bill was to one of the outlying characters/witnesses in this case? (And the number was reassigned long before 2012) (In other words, a bit of evidence in the criminal case, but nothing to do IDing her.)


There is no context.

I just don't see a connection to her and this bowling alley.


I'm beginning to wonder if this phone bill is a complete mistake and belongs with another case?

Or they posted the wrong phone bill period and this phone bill has nothing connected to anything????? Just a random phone bill.......

I don't see the phone bills on NAMUS, but my login expired. They may still be there, but I can't see them.
Trenton, NJ is quite a distant from all the action here! If she was from NY what was she doing in a sleepy suburb of Trenton? There seems to be no connection with Carmichael to Trenton.

Sounds like Carmichael was in CT after his October jailbreak and I don't see any evidence that he went to NJ after his jailbreak. (Sounds like connections to MA, ME and NH) But don't see NJ anywhere.

Heck maybe they meant to post a phone bill from NH or NY and instead posted a phone bill from NJ?

Very frustrating because there is no context.

 

[Friday Fan]

A few observations about the phone bill:

1) The phone was located in New Jersey in the 609 area code. Several local calls (calls listed without an area code) are in towns that were (and still are) in the 609 area code, e.g., calls on 11/17, 11/20 and 12/16 to Hightstown, NJ as well as others to Riverside, NJ on 11/23 and 12/14, as well as several others. Also, the number listed at the top of the bill is 609-888-1300 (now Hamilton Yamaha, looks like it a business number; maybe the local Bell Phone at the time?).
2) The bill implies that she lived (or stayed) in New Jersey between 11/17 and 12/16 based on the dates of the calls.
3) The bill appears to be missing pages (they are page 2 of two successive months' bills). Unfortunately, we don't know where she might have called on Thanksgiving, which would have been 11/26/1970.
4) It looks like she received a collect (?) call from Newark, NJ on 12/11/1970 in the evening (rate = 2).

According to the Daily News article on 5/14/1975, she was last known to have been working in NYC. According to the court transcript cited earlier in the thread, Carmichael and DeFreitas robbed a bank in New Jersey on 12/22/1970. How I wish the phone bill that covered the 22nd, five days after the last call we can see, which is to Levittown, PA on the night of 12/1970.

Ugh...I can't find the court transcripts. The links originally posted are now dead. When I search CT courts, I can't find anything for DeFreitas.

Relying on old newspaper articles posted on here. Thanks for the hard work. So, they robbed a bank in NJ while Carmichael was on the the lam? Wish transcripts were available. DeFreitas died in 2017. All I can find online are his appeals.

I wonder where in NJ they robbed the bank?

 

[Friday Fan]

I found a NJ historical blog online years ago where the White Horse was discussed by people who remembered the venue. I messaged the owner asking if he would mention this young woman on his blog to see if jogged any memories. Sadly, he refused.

Yes, many of these things have been previously mentioned on the thread but the more info the better! We really need to combine all these bits of info to get a better picture of everything and everyone who came into contact with this UID... but just the thought of attempting this has always seemed overwhelming.

Yes, I saw the blog. Unfortunately, the pictures are kinda small. I struggled to read about the opening night in 1941.

There is also a public FB group dedicated to White Horse area. And a FB post about the bowling alley. People just "remembering the good times" and bowling leagues. Facebook

There was also a post on Patsy Cline's Official FB page regarding her performance at the Frontier Room at the bowling alley The Patsy Cline post was more interesting, but I don't if the Frontier Room was around in 1970. Log into Facebook

I do wonder when the Frontier Room closed? A log shows the last performance was in 1964 or 1965. Wonder if they had lesser known musicians after that or what? Or did they just close it and convert it to bowling lanes?

But I still wonder if this bowling alley has any connection at all to this UID?

ETA: I just found this about the club from 1967 Billboard

Country Singer, Wanda Jackson apparently cancelled a booking there in 1971 due to her becoming a born again Christian. So, I guess it still was a music venue in 1970.

 

[fred&edna]

Yes, I saw the blog. Unfortunately, the pictures are kinda small. I struggled to read about the opening night in 1941.

There is also a public FB group dedicated to White Horse area. And a FB post about the bowling alley. People just "remembering the good times" and bowling leagues. Facebook

There was also a post on Patsy Cline's Official FB page regarding her performance at the Frontier Room at the bowling alley The Patsy Cline post was more interesting, but I don't if the Frontier Room was around in 1970. Log into Facebook

I do wonder when the Frontier Room closed? A log shows the last performance was in 1964 or 1965. Wonder if they had lesser known musicians after that or what? Or did they just close it and convert it to bowling lanes?

But I still wonder if this bowling alley has any connection at all to this UID?

ETA: I just found this about the club from 1967 Billboard

I don't know if the bowling lanes (nor any of the phone numbers) were truly linked to the UID. I do think it was mentioned (somewhere early on) that it was thought she was a dancer (maybe a dancer in NY) which could possibly (loosely) have linked her as a dancer/server at the White Horse. jmo, of course

ETA: Also, I'm not sure why LE thought she had ties to some of the states that were listed.

 

[fred&edna]

I still have no idea how this phone bill is even connected to this case. I do know Carl looked up some numbers in 2012. For instance if Wm J Fox Jr tried to call Donald Larkin (who was the MC at White Horse) in 1970, his PA number would have been reassigned long before 2012 because Donald moved to AZ in 1972.

So, some of the numbers called could be defunct and reassigned in 2012.


There is no documentation about why they think she made these phone calls?? Why would she be calling from a bowling alley over a period of time? And if they knew it was her, wouldn't they know her name? Or if she worked at the bowling alley and made those calls, would she have a name or at least an alias? Most of the calls seem like business calls to me.


Is it possible that someone who fit her description stopped by the bowling alley and made one call? Like in the case of, "Hey can I use your phone? I don't have any cash for the phone booth?" (Been there, done that many times myself!) The owner says, "Sure you can use my office phone" ..Heck even gas stations used to let me use their private phones all the time. (Local calls only though, although I did make a few collect calls)

I wonder if one of the numbers called on the bill was to one of the outlying characters/witnesses in this case? (And the number was reassigned long before 2012) (In other words, a bit of evidence in the criminal case, but nothing to do IDing her.)


There is no context.

I just don't see a connection to her and this bowling alley.


I'm beginning to wonder if this phone bill is a complete mistake and belongs with another case?

Or they posted the wrong phone bill period and this phone bill has nothing connected to anything????? Just a random phone bill.......

I don't see the phone bills on NAMUS, but my login expired. They may still be there, but I can't see them.
Trenton, NJ is quite a distant from all the action here! If she was from NY what was she doing in a sleepy suburb of Trenton? There seems to be no connection with Carmichael to Trenton.

Sounds like Carmichael was in CT after his October jailbreak and I don't see any evidence that he went to NJ after his jailbreak. (Sounds like connections to MA, ME and NH) But don't see NJ anywhere.

Heck maybe they meant to post a phone bill from NH or NY and instead posted a phone bill from NJ?

Very frustrating because there is no context.

Also, here's an old post that mentions the likely connection between the phone bill and the UID and/or associates. Actually, the entire post is filled with good info/thoughts, imo.

Identified! - CT - Stonington (Ledyard), WhtFem UP8909, 18-30, JNHS 1917 Class Ring, Lady Clairol hair roller set, May'74 - Linda Sue Childers

I'm getting confused with all these robberies/attempted robberies and escapes! It appears Carmichael (& pals) attempted to rob a bank in October 1968, Brockton MA. They escaped and promptly robbed the Hartford National Bank branch in Manchester November 1968. Honored Off-Duty Patrolman...

www.websleuths.com

 

[fred&edna]

I stumbled upon a podcast where the hosts do their best to explain some connections Carmichael had to other organized crime members mentioned throughout this thread including the Defreitas/Brandt trial. Interesting effort but still quite confusing.

A Tale of Two Thieves, Well Many Thieves

We're back this with our favorite topic: bank robberies, armored truck heists and colorful characters! There are a few familiar names from last season, some new one…

www.doubledealpodcast.com

 

[Friday Fan]

Also, here's an old post that mentions the likely connection between the phone bill and the UID and/or associates. Actually, the entire post is filled with good info/thoughts, imo.

Identified! - CT - Stonington (Ledyard), WhtFem UP8909, 18-30, JNHS 1917 Class Ring, Lady Clairol hair roller set, May'74 - Linda Sue Childers

I'm getting confused with all these robberies/attempted robberies and escapes! It appears Carmichael (& pals) attempted to rob a bank in October 1968, Brockton MA. They escaped and promptly robbed the Hartford National Bank branch in Manchester November 1968. Honored Off-Duty Patrolman...

www.websleuths.com

I found this yesterday! I believe this is where alot of this is coming from. 17-yo NJ witness/informant who spent Dec 22-28 with the UID. Skigirl posted this in Mar 2022.

The 17-yo/witness/informant spent more time with our UID than anyone.

And since she was only 17, she may have been impressionable. My hunch is much of the info about our UID came from her. Sounds like the 17 yo was from the Trenton area.

There is no evidence that CMF (owner of the bowling alley) was ever interviewed. (Guess it would take a FOIA)
The numbers on the phone bill are consistent with CMF doing business. In 1950, CMF moved across the river to Bucks County, PA. He resided with his three grown daughters who were all professionals of sorts. Calls to PA would be expected because Philly and Trenton are close to each other. CMF was always contacting Nashville. I just found an auction of piece ($345) for a contract between Little Jimmy Dickens and CMF. Little Jimmy Dickens address is listed as a talent agency in Nashville.

I think much of the info about our UID came from the 17 yo. I think that's why NYC and all those other states are given. Our UID may have told the 17 yo these locations. It may have been true, it may have been false. UID was likely older than 17 and maybe just telling her things etc. Obviously, the 17 yo did not know her real name, so our UID sounds like she was being careful already.

I don't know if the 17 yo knew about the murders at the time. This is because there is a wanted poster for Carmichael dated May 1971 for the Dec 22, 1970 bank robbery.

During this bank robbery on the lam, thing, the 17 yo apparently eloped with Brown. So, there was alot of drama going on around her.

I really think this where much of the info came from! That's probably why it's confusing.

Identified! - CT - Stonington (Ledyard), WhtFem UP8909, 18-30, JNHS 1917 Class Ring, Lady Clairol hair roller set, May'74 - Linda Sue Childers

I stumbled on a recently resolved UID case involving a Vermont man who was shot to death in New Hampshire and found by the side of the road on August 7, 1969, and not identified until this year. His name was Winston Richard Morris. On looking into the case a little more, I learned that he'd...

www.websleuths.com

 

[fred&edna]

I found this yesterday! I believe this is where alot of this is coming from. 17-yo NJ witness/informant who spent Dec 22-28 with the UID. Skigirl posted this in Mar 2022.

The 17-yo/witness/informant spent more time with our UID than anyone.

And since she was only 17, she may have been impressionable. My hunch is much of the info about our UID came from her. Sounds like the 17 yo was from the Trenton area.

There is no evidence that CMF (owner of the bowling alley) was ever interviewed. (Guess it would take a FOIA)
The numbers on the phone bill are consistent with CMF doing business. In 1950, CMF moved across the river to Bucks County, PA. He resided with his three grown daughters who were all professionals of sorts. Calls to PA would be expected because Philly and Trenton are close to each other. CMF was always contacting Nashville. I just found an auction of piece ($345) for a contract between Little Jimmy Dickens and CMF. Little Jimmy Dickens address is listed as a talent agency in Nashville.

I think much of the info about our UID came from the 17 yo. I think that's why NYC and all those other states are given. Our UID may have told the 17 yo these locations. It may have been true, it may have been false. UID was likely older than 17 and maybe just telling her things etc. Obviously, the 17 yo did not know her real name, so our UID sounds like she was being careful already.

I don't know if the 17 yo knew about the murders at the time. This is because there is a wanted poster for Carmichael dated May 1971 for the Dec 22, 1970 bank robbery.

During this bank robbery on the lam, thing, the 17 yo apparently eloped with Brown. So, there was alot of drama going on around her.

I really think this where much of the info came from! That's probably why it's confusing.

Identified! - CT - Stonington (Ledyard), WhtFem UP8909, 18-30, JNHS 1917 Class Ring, Lady Clairol hair roller set, May'74 - Linda Sue Childers

I stumbled on a recently resolved UID case involving a Vermont man who was shot to death in New Hampshire and found by the side of the road on August 7, 1969, and not identified until this year. His name was Winston Richard Morris. On looking into the case a little more, I learned that he'd...

www.websleuths.com

Yep, it's all in this thread in one way or another

Another post (*of note the woman's name was mis-identified as "Main" but was actually "Maiden")

CT - CT - Stonington (Ledyard), WhtFem UP8909, 18-30, JNHS 1917 Class Ring, Lady Clairol hair roller set, granny boots, yellow rain coat, May'74

Just entered her in Doe Net

www.websleuths.com

 

[fred&edna]

And, I still don't understand where LE obtained photos of the UID's "belongings". Who saved them during the years from when she was killed until LE was notified of the murders??

 

[Friday Fan]

And, I still don't understand where LE obtained photos of the UID's "belongings". Who saved them during the years from when she was killed until LE was notified of the murders??

The wife of one of those men saved them.
I can't remember her name. It wasn't Rainello.
I'm thinking Lemma was her name???
It's here somewhere.


ETA: LE must have talked to CMF.
How on earth did they get his phone bills?

I guess they could get a warrant, but they would probably would contact him first.

 

[fred&edna]

The wife of one of those men saved them.
I can't remember her name. It wasn't Rainello.
I'm thinking Lemma was her name???
It's here somewhere.


ETA: LE must have talked to CMF.
How on earth did they get his phone bills?

I guess they could get a warrant, but they would probably would contact him first.

Yes, Rainello saving the items is the only thing that makes sense but... still seems slightly odd. Iemma? Joann, Lucille? some other aka?

 

[fred&edna]

I still am amazed that one of the witnesses who testified in defense of both Defreitas and Brandt worked as an attorney in the RI public defenders office (Munson).



And, she married one of the Ouimette brothers.

Ex public defender weds convict - UPI Archives

Allegra E. Munson, the first woman lawyer appointed to the Rhode Island public defender's office, has tied the knot with convicted Bonded Vault robber John...

www.upi.com

 

[Jerri Blank]

I still am amazed that one of the witnesses who testified in defense of both Defreitas and Brandt worked as an attorney in the RI public defenders office (Munson).

View attachment 440470

And, she married one of the Ouimette brothers.

Ex public defender weds convict - UPI Archives

Allegra E. Munson, the first woman lawyer appointed to the Rhode Island public defender's office, has tied the knot with convicted Bonded Vault robber John...

www.upi.com

Rhode Island is nothing if not corrupt (said lovingly as only one born and raised can!) the first season of the crime town podcast digs in a bit. It’s phenomenal!

 

[Jerri Blank]

The wife of one of those men saved them.
I can't remember her name. It wasn't Rainello.
I'm thinking Lemma was her name???
It's here somewhere.


ETA: LE must have talked to CMF.
How on earth did they get his phone bills?

I guess they could get a warrant, but they would probably would contact him first.

Did I just make up that those items were buried with her? I always pictured them wrapping all her stuff up in a blanket and tossing it in as they filled the hole.

 

[Jerri Blank]

Re: the phone bill, fwiw many years ago, I used newspapers.com and pulled up papers from the regions on the dates in question and found some very interesting things. Who knows if I ever posted it here. It’s been so long!

 

[Friday Fan]

Did I just make up that those items were buried with her? I always pictured them wrapping all her stuff up in a blanket and tossing it in as they filled the hole.

Well, it would make sense that they would be buried. That's what I thought!

 

[Friday Fan]

Re: the phone bill, fwiw many years ago, I used newspapers.com and pulled up papers from the regions on the dates in question and found some very interesting things. Who knows if I ever posted it here. It’s been so long!

No. I don't think you posted it. I was looking for something like that!
I don't have a subscription right now.

I think they would be a valuable source!

 

[fred&edna]

Rhode Island is nothing if not corrupt (said lovingly as only one born and raised can!) the first season of the crime town podcast digs in a bit. It’s phenomenal!

I absolutely loved Crimetown season 1!