custody given to nancy's family

[justthinking2008]

McDraw,

You are really onto to something, they knew exactly what to say and how to go about, Mr. Rentz was a social services director in Canada. BC never stood a chance and neither would any of us if a social worker came after our children.

 

[ncsu95]

I was thinking about this custody issue today (when I wasn't particularly expecting to think about this case at all). You know, so many men want nothing to do with their kids...they divorce the wife or abandon the GF and the kids are left to fend for themselves w/no father figure. So it's particularly poignant when I see men who WANT to parent and want to spend time with their kids on a daily basis. And for that reason I'm pretty sad about this Cooper situation.

Those kids need/want their father. They also need/want their extended family too. I believe it ultimately hurts the kids to not have ready access to everyone who loves them. I understand the reality here, but I'm just saying, I don't like it.

When I was growing up, fathers spent their time at work and the major child rearing was left to the mothers, by and large. My dad came home from work, expected dinner on the table, then he watched TV until after the news, and went to bed. There was a TV in every room, including the kitchen, and we kids were not allowed to talk during dinner because the news was on! (not kidding). Certainly not ideal, and I think back now and see that it was a lousy way to raise kids, but it wasn't considered anything but standard then. Today that might be considered 'unfit.' (My parents still do this--they have 4 TVs in their apt. :frown

I'm sure the Listers are providing a loving home--I don't doubt that for a single moment. But those kids also need more frequent access to their father, at least until he's been indicted for the crime.

Thank you for sharing this. I know you are in the 97% guilty club, so this says a lot.

 

[Star12]

I was thinking about this custody issue today (when I wasn't particularly expecting to think about this case at all). You know, so many men want nothing to do with their kids...they divorce the wife or abandon the GF and the kids are left to fend for themselves w/no father figure. So it's particularly poignant when I see men who WANT to parent and want to spend time with their kids on a daily basis. And for that reason I'm pretty sad about this Cooper situation.

Those kids need/want their father. They also need/want their extended family too. I believe it ultimately hurts the kids to not have ready access to everyone who loves them. I understand the reality here, but I'm just saying, I don't like it.

When I was growing up, fathers spent their time at work and the major child rearing was left to the mothers, by and large. My dad came home from work, expected dinner on the table, then he watched TV until after the news, and went to bed. There was a TV in every room, including the kitchen, and we kids were not allowed to talk during dinner because the news was on! (not kidding). Certainly not ideal, and I think back now and see that it was a lousy way to raise kids, but it wasn't considered anything but standard then. Today that might be considered 'unfit.' (My parents still do this--they have 4 TVs in their apt. :frown

I'm sure the Listers are providing a loving home--I don't doubt that for a single moment. But those kids also need more frequent access to their father, at least until he's been indicted for the crime.

My ex fought me tooth and nail for the girls. We were in court every 3 months. I was advised to move away because of all the harassment on all levels. Suport quit long before. He had my address and phone number. I moved out of state. After the last trip to court, after I had moved, never heard a word from him again. Not a call, birthday card, present, nothing.

Sometimes the custody battles are harassment, sometimes they are a result of pride, sometimes they want to keep control of the situation, sometimes it's the only way they can punish the ex wife, sometimes because they are wanting to keep their "possession/s", and once in a while they truly believe they would be the better parent. It's not always because they love their children. My ex called my girls "little chits" to their faces, and worse - they were female so you can guess. Same thing he called me. Now my daughter has a beautiful 2-1/2 year old daughter. She's not interested in letting her dad know.

I'm a nice person. But I do immensely hate my ex. Yet I made sure that when the girls were little they had their nightly phone calls, all their visitations and more, told my children how lucky they were to have two houses, and two parents who loved them. I can relate to Krista. She doesn't need to like BC, or even tolerate him. Her behavior in the courtroom is completely understandable to me. But that behavior was not in front of the children, and I do not believe she is anything but appropriate in front of the children.

However, did you catch the testimony that BC is pumping the girls for information about what goes on in the Lister household? When my ex's attorney was presented with evidence that he was doing the same thing he
was horrified - that is emotionally abusive to the children. Oh, and btw, my kids acted the same way with the nightly phone calls, hanging up on him, hiding in the bathroom, acting out, not responding to him. So I'm not surprised at Bella and Katie's behavior. BC is pushing the girls, pumping them, creating emotional chaos in the girls. Yes, the probably do love him, but they also love Jim and Krista. I think BC needs some lessons in appropriate behavior.

 

[Star12]

Likewise, so many women want kids only to collect a larger welfare check. They have no desire for a man in their life and really don't care much for their kids as long as the welfare check arrives on time. These kids are victimized by the greed of women who want a larger welfare check.

Hopefully this comment is as outrageous as yours.

I find that comment incredibly outrageous, and take offense. So you think a man should not provide for his children?

 

[justthinking2008]

BC has every right to know what goes on in that household, if those were my kids, I would not be pumping them, I would be outright asking them. The Listers do not have the market cornered on parenting. BTW, how do you know what goes on in that home, are you there or have you been there, just curious.

 

[Star12]

BC has every right to know what goes on in that household, if those were my kids, I would not be pumping them, I would be outright asking them. The Listers do not have the market cornered on parenting. BTW, how do you know what goes on in that home, are you there or have you been there, just curious.

It helps if you actually read the available material - affidavits, postings of eyewitnesses, msm articles with transcripts.

And what an odd question to ask.

 

[justthinking2008]

I have read all of the affidavits, why do you not lend any credence to the ones in support of Brad. Also there are no eyewitnesses to anything, just people repeating things said to them by an angry spouse about to divorce. Please point out one eyewitness account of BC being a bad parent. We have no information regarding the Lister's ability to parent, we again know nothing of them other than things that were told to affiants by NC. We do; however, have eyewitness statements of BC spending time with and playing with his children. As SG pointed out, some of the dad's today are different than the dad's of yesteryear, men typically do not get overly involved in the raising of the children, they are just not expected to unless something occurs such as the death of the mother that brings them into the forefront. The role that BC is attempting to fill is normal under the circumstances, the rest of his parenting role is fairly normal as well. Just depends on your POV.

 

[Albert]

I find that comment incredibly outrageous, and take offense. So you think a man should not provide for his children?

You know, so many men want nothing to do with their kids

I responded to the fact that SQ indicated so many men want nothing to do with their kids. I was just trying to keep it balanced to indicate the same is true about women.

 

[SleuthyGal]

As SG pointed out, some of the dad's today are different than the dad's of yesteryear, men typically do not get overly involved in the raising of the children, they are just not expected to unless something occurs such as the death of the mother that brings them into the forefront.

Actually the point I was making is that when I was a kid my father wasn't very 'active' with my brother and me (unless you count watching TV as 'active,') and back then that was pretty much the norm. I've noticed men being much more active and involved with their kids nowadays, which is a good thing. No, not all men, but certainly more than when I was growing up. I think the caretaking roles have evolved a lot since I was a child and now I see many men being as equally involved in childcare, and in some cases, perhaps even more!

SH is an example of an evolved, involved, caring father, and probably a good model to follow. Maybe BC can/will learn from him.

 

[SleuthyGal]

Star, you are indeed a nice person! I'm so sorry about what you had to contend with in your marriage and the ensuing custody battle. I'm glad you survived and came through intact. :smile:

 

[chauncey7381]

The alienation of a parent is never good. Regardless, of what Brad Cooper is or is not, he is their Dad. And they love him and always will. I really think NC's family knew exactly what to say to get those children. I understand their anger but I really can't see how the judge would think that environment is better for the children.

I've thought about this since it happened. Ummmm. When this case first broke, there was very intense media scrutiny. Having lost your wife and claiming innocence, having the CPD and everyone against you, I don't think that would have been a good environment for the children at that time. To me that is why the temporary arrangements were negotiated in the private room. I was surprised with the recent testimony from the Listers and the Rentzs.

Now that matters have calmed down, he still isn't charged, I'm truly having a hard time understanding why his children cannot be back with him presently. I sense the Listers do not want Brad Cooper to have anything to do with his children. I wasn't there in the courtroom, my opinion is only based on what I have read here and through the media (which is a good spin-cycle) so take their viewpoint with a grain of salt.

The order is still temporary. We don't know for how long, probably into 2009. As I said earlier, I hope Judge Sasser will address Brad Cooper's interactions with his children and Krista Lister's emotional feelings. Ummm, make sure the court order spells out what is and what isn't allowed!

I do wish CPD would charge/clear this guy one way or another in the near future. You gotta wonder if all the forensic evidence is still not analyzed, and if that's a underlying reason for the temporary order continuance. That's speculation on my behalf, a little Oliver Stone flows in my blood sometimes.

 

[chauncey7381]

However, did you catch the testimony that BC is pumping the girls for information about what goes on in the Lister household?

No, I didn't, do you have a link? Is this in Momt3Kids notes? I'm sure Judge Sasser will make that determination when viewing the webcam sessions.

 

[chauncey7381]

Unless BC is charged with a crime or even noted as a person of interest these children should be returned to him immediately.

That's my current sentiment. Waiting to read Sasser's order.

Is not fair to the children to be taken away from their home, toys, friends, familiar surroundings and to be placed in an area totally foreign to them.

They are young, their mindset is on toys, dolls, other kids their age etc., maybe they are being told their on vacation for a bit. Who knows. They may not remember any of this, when it's resolved, especially the younger one. I do think the Listers and Rentzs are providing well for the children, it's the emotions they harbor towards Brad that is troubling.

KL is not promoting a relationship with BC thru her own selfish motives, and I think this speaks volumes regarding her personality. If and when the children are returned to their father they may be wary of him, if KL has made them believe he killed their mother. Also BC may have been an absentee father who was interested in furthering his education to provide better for the family, or had some temporary obsession with physical training for a competition, but that does not make him a bad dad. Even the people that are on the guilty side of the fence agree nothing has been shown to prove him unfit. BC has submitted to psych. tests and 7 hours of deposition, which incidentally is why he did not take the stand, that is why NC's family wanted to depo, Stubbs could have called BC if she had wanted. I would love to see a psychological profile on KL, since everyone seems to believe that she is a better parent than BC, and if my memory serves me correctly, she does not have children and has no experience parenting at all.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

I CONCUR! I said this a long time ago, the in-laws should submit to one too. I think one could argue they might have some anger issues!

 

[wirehair]

Most parents do not have any parenting experience until the day they bring their baby home from the hospital. Most parents have learned parenting skills from their own parents....good or bad. The majority of the time when a dad picks his child up from school he doesn't even know which teacher's room to have paged. Most likely the aunt was raised in a very loving home and is passing this on to the care of the two lovely girls.

 

[TXredhead178]

Star, I've had a very similar experience as yours re: my ex-spouse and my children. Kudos to you for taking the high road and doing right by your kids! Because of the 2-year-long custody battle I went through, and the antics of my ex- and his new wife, I'm very cognizant of and sensitive to the issue of parental alienation and the devastating effects it has on children. And I agree it's possible to dislike one's ex-spouse yet remain very supportive of the kids' relationship with them. It's a function of one's level of maturity, in my opinion.

As far as the Cooper case, it seems to me it would be in the best interest of the children, who are dealing with the devastating loss of their mother, to have as much of their family as possible available to them. It's unfortunate that everyone involved lives so far apart. I honestly don't know what's best in this situation. The first temporary change in custody was understandable under the circumstances, but as time goes on and a suspect in NC's death has yet to be named, I'm starting to question whether it remains in the girls' best interests to be separated from their father. I'm hoping the detials of Judge Sasser's latest ruling will shed more light on all of this.

 

[eye_believe]

dear justthinking2008, you were on to something yesterday?

concerning K (emotions & motives)
people often desperately want what they c..'t ....

 

[jilly]

Justthinking2008..... you are "on" to something...

People often "want" what they c..'. .... period

dear justthinking2008, you were on to something yesterday?

concerning K (emotions & motives)
people often desperately want what they c..'t ....

What's your point?

 

[Jess]

It appears to me that Brad acted, as he always acted, in the fight for custody of the girls. He used money. Never once did we hear any emotion, an "I love them, miss them, need them," I think to him, the fact that he was paying lawyers,being questioned and submitting to a psych evaluation, was enough.To him, these things proved that he wanted his girls. Maybe this is the only way he knows ?? Family upbringing ??( and perhaps that is how he was with Nancy. He 'gave' her things, but perhaps was not emotionally intimate with her?)

The Rentz's and Listers appear to be passionate, showing all their emotions. However I do believe that they are following the ruling of the judge. I do not believe, no matter what others think, that they are dissing their father.I do not believe that Krista is replacing their mother. why else would Bella ask about Nancy? She knows they are two different people.

How fortunate for the girls that at this time in their lives, they are surrounded by demonstratively loving people. Children have to be shown love -- the words are not enough.

No one knows what the future holds for these little girls . It is all so sad.

 

[tarheellvr]

You miss the point, regardless of KL's parenting abilities or lack thereof, these girls have a biological parent that loves them ,wants them, and has experience with them, knows their likes and dislikes, even if he had to write it down, they should be at home with BC, time for vacation to end.

Thank God Nancy's girls had Judge Sasser as their adversary!

At home with BC.......but of course let them live with the suspected murderer of their mother, after all he is their biological father. For the life of me, I can't understand this line of thinking.

Yes, he knows them. Want them? Love them? How do we know....he sure as hell never said so in court when he had the chance. Even in his disposition never ONCE did he say I LOVE MY DAUGHTERS. Never ONCE did he say I LOVE MY WIFE.

Bella and Katie are where they should be. We'll find out soon enough how and why Judge Sasser made her decision. Even then, I'm quite sure there will STILL be the BC whinners.

 

[SleuthyGal]

Thank God Nancy's girls had Judge Sasser as their adversary!

At home with BC.......but of course let them live with the suspected murderer of their mother, after all he is their biological father. For the life of me, I can't understand this line of thinking.

Yes, he knows them. Want them? Love them? How do we know....he sure as hell never said so in court when he had the chance. Even in his disposition never ONCE did he say I LOVE MY DAUGHTERS. Never ONCE did he say I LOVE MY WIFE.

Bella and Katie are where they should be. We'll find out soon enough how and why Judge Sasser made her decision. Even then, I'm quite sure there will STILL be the BC whinners.

Hi THL,

I think you mean advocate.

As you know I believe BC likely did the deed, but I do think the state needs to prove it (and I personally want to see what evidence links him to the crime). I'm also a believer in constitutional rights, which is why I can't just say 'fry him.' So you know my viewpoint.

Anyway, a couple of points: the deposition was plaintiff's lawyers asking questions and they controlled what got asked. I don't recall them ever asking BC about his feelings towards anything. If they did, I missed it. He could have interjected his feelings for his daughters I suppose, and he didn't, but neither was he asked.

As you know, he didn't take the stand at the custody hearing; whether that was his call, his lawyers' call or a joint decision I don't know. He did declare in his affy that he "loved Nancy very much" and "wanted the marriage to work." He also talked about the kids and that he told them many times a day, "I love you." So there is 'testimony' there, since affy's are entered into the record and are part of what the judge looks at.

This removal of kids from a custodial parent is a complicated one...not so much if there is abuse or a parent is unfit, because that is a much easier call--in fact, it's a no-brainer. But neither abuse nor unfitness was obvious in this case. It wasn't demonstrated at the hearing, so it would have to come down to what the judge saw in the rest of the materials that made her decide the way she did. When I left the courtroom that day, I thought custody of the kids might well return to BC.

Merging the crime w/parental fitness, before there's been any criminal case movement, seems strange to me...perhaps because that's not the order one normally sees in these situations.