Day 3 SBTC - The 12 Days of JonBenet

[Ambitioned]

You're either a Northerner or a Damned Yankee. A Northerner comes to visit, and a Damned Yankee comes and stays."

:lol: :lol:

I have a neighbor who is true blue Southerner. One day I was outside when the UPS guy made a delivery. My neighbor engages him in a bit of chit chat and says, "Ah knowed yo' wasn't fum aroun' hyar." The UPS guy said, "Nope, I'm a damn Yankee." My neighbor says, "Well, yer not bad fo' a dadburn yank!" I was rolling.

 

[Ambitioned]

Why are you always so argumentative? If you were raised in the south, you are southern. If you move there for 9 years as an adult, you are not. You can't even concede that moot point?

Yeah, I thought one of the rules was:

• Don’t be a jerk. Interact with your fellow members in a respectful manner.

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

I have a neighbor who is true blue Southerner. One day I was outside when the UPS guy made a delivery. My neighbor engages him in a bit of chit chat and says, "Ah knowed yo' wasn't fum aroun' hyar." The UPS guy said, "Nope, I'm a damn Yankee." My neighbor says, "Well, yer not bad fo' a dadburn yank!" I was rolling.

Newberry or Orangeburg County?

 

[Ambitioned]

Orangeburg County!

 

[andreww]

Tea Time said "You are either born southern or you are something other than southern - a transplant if you will."

According to her statement, someone who was born in Los Angeles and then moved to Atlanta two weeks later and lived the next several decades in Atlanta wouldn't be counted as being southern simply because that person didn't live there for the first two weeks of his or her life.

Obviously John didn't move there when he was two years old so what's your point? JR is not a southerner, I think we can all agree on that.


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[SerenitySprings]

And another good explanation. If that is the reference, maybe patsy has some dirt on John about his time there? Or it's just something from his past that popped in her head.

Wasn't there some kind of framed certificate or something from Sybil Bay Training Center somewhere in the house that Patsy would see every day? Maybe in the master bedroom near John's desk? I think I read about it in Schiller's book, PMPT.


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[TeaTime]

Oh, I see. So, if someone was born in, let's say, Los Angeles, and a couple of weeks later moved to Atlanta, you'd say that person wasn't southern either.

Correct - unless the parents were southerners. IcedTea surely you realize that it isn't the physical location of the birth that matters. Or maybe not, I don't know.

 

[Ambitioned]

Wasn't there some kind of framed certificate or something from Sybil Bay Training Center somewhere in the house that Patsy would see every day? Maybe in the master bedroom near John's desk? I think I read about it in Schiller's book, PMPT.

There was a plaque from Subic Bay naval base in the Philippines. There is no Subic Bay Training Center.

 

[kanzz]

Wasn't there some kind of framed certificate or something from Sybil Bay Training Center somewhere in the house that Patsy would see every day? Maybe in the master bedroom near John's desk? I think I read about it in Schiller's book, PMPT.


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"Subic Bay" naval base. Which some said was a training center.
There's some discussion and testimony transcripts about it on acandyrose.

 

[TeaTime]

Maybe it was the Technical Center. JR is an engineer by education. He was a Navy man in the engineering division, the department that designs bridges, roads, facilities, etc., used by the military. Chances are there was a technology section.

During the time that JR would have been there, the Philippines would have been like punishment. Horrible place.

 

[what-did-YOU-find]

Has anyone come across the phrase:

Victory over Satan Belongs to Christ?

I'm not a religious person but I have seen this saying in some religious documents & couldn't help question what it fully means. With the help of Google I found out the following which I think I have understood correctly:

Satan is also known at the devil, a fallen angel & the serpent.

Satan = Evil so it can also be said Victory over Evil Belongs to Christ?

In the Bible/and these documents/books it says the seed of the woman will bruise the head of Satan/the Serpent. Satan is bound and placed in a pit for a 1000 years or something.

I have learnt the Hebrew word bruise means crush/break.

It says God did not spare Angels when they sinned but cast them into hell.

I don't understand fully what seed of the woman means.

What is a sin in the Bible & what would or could be classed as a sin to an extremely religious person to possibly think of them evil?

I'm not saying John and Patsy were Extremists in their religion but it is known:
· John & Patsy were a very religious family.
· John says when his daughter Beth died he became closer to God
· Before JonBenet's death, Patsy had a healing service & believed it had cured her from cancer.
· Before JonBenet's death, Patsy was reading a bible one night and when she read a passage about calamities she thought it was a sign from God about her cancer.
· In Steve Thomas's book he mentions something do with a Church Service where he or someone witnessed Patsy throwing her hands in the air which is associated with the Baptist church.
· When JonBenet died Patsy was with her she asked God to raise her from the dead.
· John and Patsy were of the Episcopalian religion.
· The Episcopal Church describes itself as Protestant yet Catholic

Whilst some of the above might be odd to me, the main point I'm making is they were very religious people.
In John Ramsey's book TOSOS he makes reference to the bible, his faith and God to a large extent. This is also true in his media interviews & DOI.

I noticed in TOSOS John is familiar with Hebrew words. He tells us the Hebrew word aman means faith. Bruise means crush/break in Hebrew.

In the book some of the things he tells us:

When he read the bible more carefully, I saw how we were warned about the demonic, about Satan and he didn't really understated much about an entity called Satan before his visit to India.

He goes onto say that he believes with conviction that he now believes there is a spiritual realm & there is a demonic side to that realm. He has no doubt of this.

He Says the good news is, Jesus gives us power in His name over Satan's influence & actions.

He believes God is faithful & for what the devil intends for evil God will turn to good.
There is a chapter titled Are Demons Real. In this chapter he says again he never gave much thought to the possibility that people could be demon possessed.

He quotes a Isaiah 14:12-14 on what the bible says about Satan or evil.

According to The Book of Ezekiel Satan was once a beautiful angel but he fell from grace.

He says Satan's influence convinced Adam & Eve that they could be like God.

Is it my understanding that would then make Adam and Eve Fallen Angels? As God cast out Satan because Satan believed he could be like God.

In the book John quotes -Luke 10:19 Behold I give you the authority to trample on serpents & scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy.

Could you take this to mean if you believe in God then you have the authority to cast out what you believe as evil?

I've attached a couple of references to the SBTC I have found. Having done a little research I am aware Victory is a very prominent word in the bible/religion.

It is the understanding that the police believe everything was staged other than the blow to the head & I understand there was an open bible which was found on John Ramsey's desk. Do we know for sure exactly what part it was?

Victory was over SBTC on the ransom note.

 

[Miz Adventure]

In my view SBTC is far more likely to stand for Saved By The Cross.

While Patsy was recovering from cancer she asked her friend and photographer Judith Phillips to take a photo of herself with her gold cross in her mouth. Patsy told Judth that she had been Saved By The Cross (Victory!). Saved from cancer.

 

[what-did-YOU-find]

Personally if I had to choose from all the theories I've heard, Saved By The Cross is the one I'd probably link it to the most.
It was interesting that there is a saying Victory over Satan belongs to Christ and then to find out the bible mentions the bruising/crushing the head of Satan.
Everything about this case is so crazy & then little finds that almost 'seem to fit' just adds to that craziness.

 

[kanzz]

Regarding Patsy's religion, here's what I've found:

Growing up, PR attended Stout Memorial United Methodist Church in Parkersburg.
PR/JR married at Atlanta's Peachtree Presbyterian Church in 1980.
While living in Boulder, the family attended St. John's Episcopal Church.
When they moved to Charlevoix in 2003, they attended the Community Reformed Church.
Her funeral was on June 29, 2006, at the United Methodist Church in Roswell, Georgia.

So, she never became an Episcopalian. Friends probably invited her, and St. John's was probably the church that welcomed the Ramseys to the community, so they attended church there. There's a difference.
(The Episcopal Church is a derivative of the Church of England, which acknowledged the pope until the 16th century. Therefore.. "Protestant, yet Catholic at its roots.)

PR is fundamentally Protestant.. and non-committal about which particular faith. This doesn't spell "religious" to me. It says "church attendee". There's a difference. J/S

SBTC = Saved By The Cross, imo. Occam's Razor.

 

[HarmonyE.]

From the October '97 Vanity Fair article: "Although the Ramseys had been Presbyterians, they joined St. John’s Episcopal Church. 'Social climbing,' says Marino sadly; 'she wanted to be where the money was.'” (Jim Marino was a former friend and employee of John's.)

 

[1krazmf]

From the October '97 Vanity Fair article: "Although the Ramseys had been Presbyterians, they joined St. John’s Episcopal Church. 'Social climbing,' says Marino sadly; 'she wanted to be where the money was.'” (Jim Marino was a former friend and employee of John's.)

I think it means So Bring The Cash

 

[kanzz]

RE: Saved By The Cross & Victory

Today we buried my aunt (my late mother's only sibling). She had her 100th birthday in January, so it was a true celebration of life. The funeral was in the Lutheran Church - not evangelical by any stretch of the imagination. I've only attended three funerals in a Lutheran Church and had forgotten how similar their services are to Episcopal services (though not quite as formal).

During her homily, the Reverend mentioned the term "Saved By The Cross" and he used the word "victory" at least 7 times with relation to her death being a victory and with scriptural references.

Today I became even more convinced that SBTC is "Saved By The Cross".

p.s. Condolences are not necessary. 100 years is a long life, and hers was well-lived with a mind as sharp as a tack and a body that cooperated fairly well up to the last 2 weeks or so. At her birthday party, approximately 170 people came and she remembered every person except two though she hadn't seen some in thirty+ years. I can't even do that!

 

[AlGx]

I think it means She's By The Cellar or Stranged By The Cord

 

[AndHence]

To me the giveaway that the letter was penned by Patsy is the use of a caret -- something a journalism major would do while performing edits.

 

[fr brown]

Here's another connection to Patsy and "Victory!" I'm reading Dr. Andrew Hodges' book A Mother Gone Bad and he mentions in passing on page 67 that "for spiritual comfort Patsy watches the television program Victory." I've never read that anywhere else so I'm not sure how accurate that is, but Hodges did consult Judith Phillips (and possibly others, Judith is the only one I'm sure of) so she could have been the source of that. Just something that jumped out at me....

Looking at the TV Guide for Dec 21-27, 1996, just this morning, I saw a program listed as "Victory! With Billy Joe and Sharon Daugherty." It was a religious show on multiple times that week, including 3:30 in the morning on the 26th.

I think everyone will agree once it's looked at, that "SBTC" comes from the beginning of Psalm 35. Go to post #393 on FFJ's "John Ramsey's New Book - The Other Side of Suffering" thread to see a photo of that page. Part of a note on the facing page is visible. It says that that psalm, Psalm 34, is an acrostic poem in which the verses start with successive letters of the Hebrew alphabet.

Was the choice of Psalm 35 random? I don't think so. I finally got around to reading Patsy's favorite psalm, the one that she credits in DOI with saving her life when she had cancer, Psalm 57. I was astonished at how similar Psalm 35 and Psalm 57 are in the NIV Study Bible. Both talk about people as lions who dig pits and spread nets over them to trap the narrator David, but instead fall into the pits themselves. Psalm 57 contains a cross-reference to the verse in Psalm 35 to which the Bible was open. Patsy may have gotten to 35 via her magical finger-stab method. Or maybe not, but she was probably familiar with Psalm 35 even before Dec. 26.