Dead Folks and Decomp *WARNING: GRAPHIC PHOTOS IN OPENING POST*#2

[yeknomaras]

The paper towels were tested, and the results were released a long time ago (see attachment). Summary: the substance on the paper towels was extracted in methanol. GC-MS analysis detected the following fatty acids: 38% oleic/vaccenic, 33% palmitic, 23% stearic, 6% myristic, consistent with human or pig adipocere.

Before anyone starts in on the Bacon Theory, you'd better do a search of the old threads.

WOW - thank you! I somehow missed the results of that testing. Very interesting and I hope it will be another helpful puzzle piece in the case.

 

[notthatsmart]

The paper towels were tested, and the results were released a long time ago (see attachment). Summary: the substance on the paper towels was extracted in methanol. GC-MS analysis detected the following fatty acids: 38% oleic/vaccenic, 33% palmitic, 23% stearic, 6% myristic, consistent with human or pig adipocere.

Before anyone starts in on the Bacon Theory, you'd better do a search of the old threads.

Would you not agree that in the document that was provided that it was not determined that it was actually Adipocere? . I am not trying to get in a circular argument here. I appreciate your input, but are we trying to state it as fact that it is actually adipocere based on the document or are we assuming based on the way it is worded.

I could say that it has tires, headlight, fenders, radio, engine, transmission and say it is consistent with a car, but it may be a motorcycle.

Also, which document is that? Is that not the Dr Vass document that we were talking about where he said a substance like adipocere?

Perhaps the Dr was wrong in saying it could easily be determined. Moo

 

[notthatsmart]

respectfully snipped and bbm....

Please explain how you can reasonably assert your statement above??

The State Prosecutors have filed their Notice of Aggravating Circumstances. Per protocol, they have listed for the defense which legal reasons they're using to justify the death penalty in the murder case against Casey.
Link: http://www.wftv.com/pdf/23545129/detail.html

Your opinion that the State is trying to implement death because "this is our first case where the mother did not claim insanity" is entirely illogical and baffling (in my opinion). This is not a legal aggravating circumstance, nor is it listed by the Prosecution. It has been stated many, many times before on this site as well as by numerous respected lawyers in Florida that this Prosecutorial team is extremely experienced and knowledgeable. They have an amazing reputation....and not just in Florida. Please bear in mind that they are seeking Justice for Caylee....first and foremost. That is their job and they are very good at advocating for the victim. Caylee is the only victim here.....not Casey by a long shot!! If you have knowledge that the SAO is seeking the death penalty because the murder suspect Casey is not pleading insanity, then please provide corrorborating information. Thanks!

I understand it is horrific to imagine Casey dealing with Caylee's decomposing remains. It makes no sense at all, but then again Casey's lies, actions, deception and statements make absolutely no sense as well. I have witnessed the trials of other wretched individuals who have performed senseless acts of cruelty and brutality against their own children. Sadly, these "monster parents" do exist. They are rare, but they do exist. They are not all mentally insane. We cannot wish away Casey's seemingly "insane" behavior or try and argue or twist the facts away from Casey (think Cindy). The facts are what they are. I admire the professionalism of the SAO.

JMO....

Yeah heck i thought I heard him say it in that last hearing when they were argueing the aggravating factors. The Judge ordered the state to list them. I will try to find it tonight if I can find that link.

 

[LambChop]

Since the adipocere was on a napkin and not a body they will say consistent with. And when they say consistent with a car....they mean it is consistent with a car not a motorcycle. Even though there is no body the smell of human decomposition is consistent with there having been a body in the trunk. jmo

 

[notthatsmart]

What is obvious to me is that we have trace evidence of Vfa and a small substance on a napkin. Somehow I am suppose to believe these two little things are causing that horrible smell when there is a garbage bag with maggots right in front of me that has been sitting in a trunk for weeks. It also took a detour and sat in a dumpster for 30 hours. I am compelled to believe it is the garbage bag. IMO

 

[LambChop]

What is obvious to me is that we have trace evidence of Vfa and a small substance on a napkin. Somehow I am suppose to believe these two little things are causing that horrible smell when there is a garbage bag with maggots right in front of me that has been sitting in a trunk for weeks. It also took a detour and sat in a dumpster for 30 hours. I am compelled to believe it is the garbage bag. IMO

Death is different........

 

[LC446]

What is obvious to me is that we have trace evidence of Vfa and a small substance on a napkin. Somehow I am suppose to believe these two little things are causing that horrible smell when there is a garbage bag with maggots right in front of me that has been sitting in a trunk for weeks. It also took a detour and sat in a dumpster for 30 hours. I am compelled to believe it is the garbage bag. IMO

It is not those two small things causing that smell. When a decomposing body is sitting in an enclosed area, that smell permeates everything. If you've been fortunate enough to have never smelled a decomposing body, then count yourself lucky. Unfortunately, I have smelled many. One in particular was in a house, on a sofa, during the summer months. The smell permeates EVERYTHING, clothing, paint on the wall, drapes, etc. If you spend a lenghty amount of time in the vicinity, your clothing carries that smell when you leave. It does not go away. That smell can never be mistaken for garbage, I assure you. The house I mentioned above could not be salvaged. It was demolished due to the smell. No amount of cleaning could get rid of it. I feel certain that the trunk retains that smell even 2 years later.

 

[Reagan]

I'm willing to bet that car will still stink come trial time.

 

[sharpar]

Yes it will - the smell will never go away and DEATH doesnt smell like garbage or
pizza or anything else . Its unique and you know what it is even if you are smelling it for the first time. I hope the jury gets to take a whiff !

 

[gngr~snap]

Adipocere formation is accelerated by the post-mortem invasion of tissues by
bacteria, especially putrefactive species such as Clostridium and it takes from several weeks to months to form.

http://pages.newtown.k12.ct.us/~ndmc/Articles/beyond grave.pdf

Freshly skeletonized bone is often called "green" bone and has a characteristic greasy feel. Under certain conditions (normally cool, damp soil), bodies may undergo saponification and develop a waxy substance called adipocere, caused by the action of soil chemicals on the body's proteins and fats. The formation of adipocere slows decomposition by inhibiting the bacteria that cause putrefaction.

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition[/ame]

When researching adipocere I found these two comments.
I don't dispute that it was found. BUT it states it takes several weeks to months to form AND forms in cool damp soil.

Where in Florida mid June will cool damp soil be found? In well shaded areas? And how did it form so quickly in a hot trunk? Sounds to me like in the heat it melts? like butter would? I am confused! Based on what we know about the case... this is a piece of the puzzle that does not fit to me... maybe it's just a brain F@*t.

Anyone have any ideas?
Can it continue to devolp without a body? Can it develop in interior/intense car heat? It just REALLY seems like Caylee would have had to be inside that car when GA and CA picked it up in order for adipocere to have formed.
If she was only in it for less than a week? It doesn't make any sense. She would have athe very least have had to been moved again by KC's car before it was towed. Even if KC moved her late in the game we are still only looking at 11 - 12 days maybe...

 

[beach]

Anyone have any ideas?
Can it continue to devolp without a body? Can it develop in interior/intense car heat? It just REALLY seems like Caylee would have had to be inside that car when GA and CA picked it up in order for adipocere to have formed.
If she was only in it for less than a week? It doesn't make any sense. She would have athe very least have had to been moved again by KC's car before it was towed. Even if KC moved her late in the game we are still only looking at 11 - 12 days maybe...

--respectfully snipped

This has been heavily discussed in some old threads. Below I linked an oldie, but goodie. It is the thread in re. FBI Decomp Report that came out about a year ago.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85496&highlight=adipocere

HTH

 

[notthatsmart]

I also wonder how we are to put a body in a trunk (bag,no bag, somehow covered up with a bag), and only leak butric acid. Its like pouring a fruit salad in a trunk but only the strawberries landed. There were other components but they are man made. Components that are man made but yet consistent with human decomp and not animal decomp are things like perfume or hair products. Possibly synthetic clothing mixed in with the decomp. I am compelled to believe that the natural decomposing fluids (not man made) would leave more than just butric acid. IMO

 

[RR0004]

What is obvious to me is that we have trace evidence of Vfa and a small substance on a napkin. Somehow I am suppose to believe these two little things are causing that horrible smell when there is a garbage bag with maggots right in front of me that has been sitting in a trunk for weeks. It also took a detour and sat in a dumpster for 30 hours. I am compelled to believe it is the garbage bag. IMO

Who said the napkin was the source of the smell...I thought the contention has always been that it was Caylee's decaying body that produced the signature odor of decomposition.

 

[RR0004]

I also wonder how we are to put a body in a trunk (bag,no bag, somehow covered up with a bag), and only leak butric acid. Its like pouring a fruit salad in a trunk but only the strawberries landed. There were other components but they are man made. Components that are man made but yet consistent with human decomp and not animal decomp are things like perfume or hair products. Possibly synthetic clothing mixed in with the decomp. I am compelled to believe that the natural decomposing fluids (not man made) would leave more than just butric acid. IMO

That reminds me...have we ever seen the results of the basketball size stain?

 

[notthatsmart]

That reminds me...have we ever seen the results of the basketball size stain?

Prolly the vfa consisting of butric acid, but it is hard to tell. There are different names givin to each area, like trunk liner, spare tire liner and so forth. Furthermore they have sent these things to different places, Body farm, Dr Haskell, FBI. The most telling thing to me is that there was never any blood found in anything so far.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

I will agree that everything Dr. Vass stated in his report is possible. This includes the 0.7 to 2.6 days, the Adipocere, the air sample, the decomp odor, the coffin flies, etc. etc. etc., and the last possibility is that it should be noted the decomp event may have been from something other than human origin.

I can totally understand how many people can believe it was Adipocere, coffin flies etc. It states all these things are possible in Dr. Vass’s report. I believe all those things are possible. I also believe it is possible that the decomp event may have been cause from something other than human origin, which if that is what caused the decomp event, then none of the other possiblities hold true.

To me that puts the Dr. Vass report in the maybe, maybe not category, which is reasonable doubt. As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

 

[gngr~snap]

--respectfully snipped

This has been heavily discussed in some old threads. Below I linked an oldie, but goodie. It is the thread in re. FBI Decomp Report that came out about a year ago.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85496&highlight=adipocere

HTH

TY! Looks like I have a reading assignment tonight! Maybe it will answer my qusetions... OR create more... lol...

 

[RR0004]

Prolly the vfa consisting of butric acid, but it is hard to tell. There are different names givin to each area, like trunk liner, spare tire liner and so forth. Furthermore they have sent these things to different places, Body farm, Dr Haskell, FBI. The most telling thing to me is that there was never any blood found in anything so far.

From personal experience...that can be contained or caught by something absorbent. We have no idea what Casey may have placed under the bag.

 

[TorisMom003]

In the event of a smothering, duct tape across nose and mouth where the child can not breath, there would be no blood involved. The only way that blood should be present is if their was a wound that bled such as a gash, gunshot wound, etc. When Dr. G examined poor Caylee's remains there was no sign of those types of wounds on the bones. So it is not surprising to me that no blood was found in the car as I would not expect any to be found to begin with.

 

[LambChop]

I will agree that everything Dr. Vass stated in his report is possible. This includes the 0.7 to 2.6 days, the Adipocere, the air sample, the decomp odor, the coffin flies, etc. etc. etc., and the last possibility is that it should be noted the decomp event may have been from something other than human origin.

I can totally understand how many people can believe it was Adipocere, coffin flies etc. It states all these things are possible in Dr. Vass’s report. I believe all those things are possible. I also believe it is possible that the decomp event may have been cause from something other than human origin, which if that is what caused the decomp event, then none of the other possiblities hold true.

To me that puts the Dr. Vass report in the maybe, maybe not category, which is reasonable doubt. As always, my entire post is my opinion only.[/QUOTE

KC's trunk + the body of her child = no doubt. Nothing unreasonable about it given no other explanation.......