Dellen Millard: Innocent Dupe? Alternative Theories

[Blomquist]

JMO like you my head spins but I am thinking that if there is "set up" involved...it is way more serious than a jilted lover. It is "someone" or a body of "someones" that has done a lot of thinking about this.

Yes agreed it could be way more than a jilted lover...but I think its safe to say that it involves deep feelings such as intense jealousy, envy, anger, hatred etc. This could be a body of `someones` or a `someone`.

Either way I think the mindset of this person (s) is twisted. For all we know the perpetrator(s) could be proficient in such planning type things.... many men are in the military or other forces these days and many are trained in such practices as killing and strategy. Same applies to LE to a slightly lesser degree.... but until we know who is behind it its hard to get a full perspective.

I think each and every possibility should be looked into.... like checking all associations and the associations of associations..... This case is based on face value imo and face value does not cut it for me and many others it seems....JMO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

My brain is also spinning, I have to tell you what about.

Who had beaten up and injured MS after the arrest of DM?

After the arrest of DM, could MS have said to the wrong person, that DM and MS himself do not commit the murder?
Was MS threatened for not knowing anything and to not reveal?

 

[Snoofo]

rsbm
bbm

Just keep in mind that surveillance is a wonderful thing for LE also, and you can be assured that LE didn't discover DM's involvement and then immediately rush in and arrest him.
They would have watched him until they were satisfied. There is no expiration date on an arrest warrant so no need for LE to hurry if public safety isn't an issue. They may have watched DM for sometime until they saw what they needed to see, whatever that may have been. So... LE may have watched DM until he incriminated himself, and therefore, re-enforced their signed affidavit that they have the correct perp.

Then they watched him until they were satisfied he committed theft over and forcible confinement, but not murder. TB was only missing at the time.

IMO, they need not watch him do anything incriminating when they had Etobicoke guy's story and tattoo description and a little online research to see he likes trucks. I think that would have been good enough for them to arrest him without DM doing a darn thing. Keep in mind also LE was under a lot of pressure to find him alive and this looks like it was their only lead. Plus he fit SB's description.

 

[Snoofo]

My brain is also spinning, I have to tell you what about.

Who had beaten up and injured MS after the arrest of DM?

After the arrest of DM, could MS have said to the wrong person, that DM and MS himself do not commit the murder?
Was MS threatened for not knowing anything and to not reveal?

I think he was roughed up by LE somewhere along the way after his arrest. Two days before MS' arrest he was at his sister's wedding and had no signs of physical harm to his face.

Funny you should bring up MS, I was just coming in to post about him. I am still on the fence as to his involvement in a set up. I cant imagine the nickname Say10 be attributed to the sweetheart in a group. I still consider his killing TB for some sort of gang entry and DM would be the perfect fall guy. But then there would be no logical reason why DM wouldnt spill the beans. Pre trial should be interesting. Will the public find out what happens then?

I agree that we havent come up with a detailed "alternative" explanation but for those who keep saying that, the two key factors for this are publication ban and WS' off limits rules for sleuthing. The combination of which make it pretty impossible to give you what you are hoping you might read. In the meantime there have been many looser "theories" put out there that have been good. Unfortunately I recall some of the good ideas were in other threads.

Blomquist, I cannot see a viable jealousy framing explanation that would have worked so seamlessly without the cooperation (or orchestration) of someone close to DM who knows his daily plans and can influence them. We dont know much about these people but it seems that DM had more money than his friends (moo!!), he was good looking and his lifestyle could very well be coveted by other guys.

I agree with hopingforjustice, the plans seem too elaborate for a jealous acquaintance to hash out and it does look like it was organized by someone who has organized harmful plots before. But I suppose it could be someone who is both of these things.

Regarding the question "is he really that stupid?".... If he and MS themselves left the evidence where it was, then I just can't see it having been a planned murder. There would have been an accident. Has anyone wondered if TB might have been tased in order to get him out of the truck, and it killed him instead? Then everything after that was a shambles because they just didnt know what to do?

 

[redheart]

I think he was roughed up by LE somewhere along the way after his arrest. Two days before MS' arrest he was at his sister's wedding and had no signs of physical harm to his face.

Funny you should bring up MS, I was just coming in to post about him. I am still on the fence as to his involvement in a set up. I cant imagine the nickname Say10 be attributed to the sweetheart in a group. I still consider his killing TB for some sort of gang entry and DM would be the perfect fall guy. But then there would be no logical reason why DM wouldnt spill the beans. Pre trial should be interesting. Will the public find out what happens then?

I agree that we havent come up with a detailed "alternative" explanation but for those who keep saying that, the two key factors for this are publication ban and WS' off limits rules for sleuthing. The combination of which make it pretty impossible to give you what you are hoping you might read. In the meantime there have been many looser "theories" put out there that have been good. Unfortunately I recall some of the good ideas were in other threads.

Blomquist, I cannot see a viable jealousy framing explanation that would have worked so seamlessly without the cooperation (or orchestration) of someone close to DM who knows his daily plans and can influence them. We dont know much about these people but it seems that DM had more money than his friends (moo!!), he was good looking and his lifestyle could very well be coveted by other guys.

I agree with hopingforjustice, the plans seem too elaborate for a jealous acquaintance to hash out and it does look like it was organized by someone who has organized harmful plots before. But I suppose it could be someone who is both of these things.

Regarding the question "is he really that stupid?".... If he and MS themselves left the evidence where it was, then I just can't see it having been a planned murder. There would have been an accident. Has anyone wondered if TB might have been tased in order to get him out of the truck, and it killed him instead? Then everything after that was a shambles because they just didnt know what to do?

I really like your posts, Snoofo. I am in the "DM most likely did it camp" and I realize you are not, but you are one of the few dissenters that present your ideas in a logical, rational manner and are able to entertain other ideas.

Anyway, most of the time I sway towards your last paragraph. I think two arrogant yahoos DM and MS planned to steal Tim's truck for kicks. I think they chose that truck for its usefulness - probably planned to pull the motor. I think they likely accidentally killed TB and then panicked over what to do about it. I think that because they hadn't planned for that at all they made some decisions that aren't the brightest to those of us sitting at our computers after the fact, dissecting what was done or what we think was done. Someone mentioned the great big piece of evidence sitting in MB's driveway, but the evidence was hidden. No one was looking for a big trailer - everyone was looking for a Dodge truck. DM likely thought he would not come under suspicion at all, so why wouldn't that be a good place to put it for the short term. I live not too far from DM's Roseville Road property and have driven by. I can easily see how a panicky DM might think "Hey! I have that incinerator..." and they pull it out of the barn to use it, thinking they are doing a good job of getting rid of evidence. I think the expectation that no one would find the remains is not unreasonable, when DM is likely thinking there is no way to trace this back to himself. As far as the tattoos go, people need to take a look around. There are a lot of people DMs age with writing tattooed on their arms. If his intention was to steal and not to murder, I can see how he wouldn't be worried about covering his tattoo. It's not that unusual and who is going to issue a nation-wide alert for a truck thief?

Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind once we see the evidence at trial, and I think there will be a lot of it.

I have tried to think of ways in which the scenario "DM was framed" works, and I can't - by OC, or by an unknown individual. If the only evidence LE had is the circumstantial evidence we know about, then maybe I could agree that framing is a possibility. But assuming for a minute that LE has solid evidence (and again - we will find out, eventually, but I think it's safe to think that they have much more than we know about!) imagine how hard it would be to successfully frame DM. It's not going to be just a matter of following him and killing TB and planting the truck and TB's body. It'll be all the evidence that is likely to come out about DM and MS' movements and communications after TB's murder, and also from before the murder because although the murder may have been an accident, there is very little doubt in my mind that DM and MS intended to steal his truck with him in it. I just think they thought they'd have some fun stealing it from under his nose and leaving TB at the roadside with his thumb in the air. MOO

Oh, and in reference to some posts a little earlier in this thread - DM was followed for at least 4 hours before his arrest. Four days after Mr. Bosma’s disappearance, police tailed Mr. Millard for at least four hours before arresting him and later charging him with forcible confinement, theft over $5,000 and, eventually, first-degree murder. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...arged-with-killing-tim-bosma/article12009016/

 

[Eldee]

I think that if someone had as their motive just to commit the perfect murder, this would be the last thing from it. If you were going to commit the perfect murder, would you pick someone who would be missed in less than an hour, or some homeless person that no one will ever notice missing? If you had access to an incinerator and an airplane, would you leave identifiable remains on your own property, or would you burn the body to nothing but ashes and dump them out of a plane? If you had a chop shop, would you leave the hot truck mostly whole in your own mother's driveway? Would you and a friend walk up to where there was a good chance that there would be a witness without disguising yourself, if you were planning the perfect murder? To me that theory is completely illogical. Come to think of it, DM might have actually had the means to commit a perfect murder if that was in fact his goal, so what stopped him from protecting himself, even a little, in this situation, when he had the means to do a much better job at covering his supposed tracks?

Will what you have said above, not be the defense's whole theory if there is no direct evidence linking DM to the murder.

 

[Juballee]

I really like your posts, Snoofo. I am in the "DM most likely did it camp" and I realize you are not, but you are one of the few dissenters that present your ideas in a logical, rational manner and are able to entertain other ideas.

Anyway, most of the time I sway towards your last paragraph. I think two arrogant yahoos DM and MS planned to steal Tim's truck for kicks. I think they chose that truck for its usefulness - probably planned to pull the motor. I think they likely accidentally killed TB and then panicked over what to do about it. I think that because they hadn't planned for that at all they made some decisions that aren't the brightest to those of us sitting at our computers after the fact, dissecting what was done or what we think was done. Someone mentioned the great big piece of evidence sitting in MB's driveway, but the evidence was hidden. No one was looking for a big trailer - everyone was looking for a Dodge truck. DM likely thought he would not come under suspicion at all, so why wouldn't that be a good place to put it for the short term. I live not too far from DM's Roseville Road property and have driven by. I can easily see how a panicky DM might think "Hey! I have that incinerator..." and they pull it out of the barn to use it, thinking they are doing a good job of getting rid of evidence. I think the expectation that no one would find the remains is not unreasonable, when DM is likely thinking there is no way to trace this back to himself. As far as the tattoos go, people need to take a look around. There are a lot of people DMs age with writing tattooed on their arms. If his intention was to steal and not to murder, I can see how he wouldn't be worried about covering his tattoo. It's not that unusual and who is going to issue a nation-wide alert for a truck thief?

Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind once we see the evidence at trial, and I think there will be a lot of it.

I have tried to think of ways in which the scenario "DM was framed" works, and I can't - by OC, or by an unknown individual. If the only evidence LE had is the circumstantial evidence we know about, then maybe I could agree that framing is a possibility. But assuming for a minute that LE has solid evidence (and again - we will find out, eventually, but I think it's safe to think that they have much more than we know about!) imagine how hard it would be to successfully frame DM. It's not going to be just a matter of following him and killing TB and planting the truck and TB's body. It'll be all the evidence that is likely to come out about DM and MS' movements and communications after TB's murder, and also from before the murder because although the murder may have been an accident, there is very little doubt in my mind that DM and MS intended to steal his truck with him in it. I just think they thought they'd have some fun stealing it from under his nose and leaving TB at the roadside with his thumb in the air. MOO

Oh, and in reference to some posts a little earlier in this thread - DM was followed for at least 4 hours before his arrest. Four days after Mr. Bosma’s disappearance, police tailed Mr. Millard for at least four hours before arresting him and later charging him with forcible confinement, theft over $5,000 and, eventually, first-degree murder. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...arged-with-killing-tim-bosma/article12009016/

Has there been anything to support the idea yet that they are arrogant yahoos? I don't think even AS called DM arrogant (unless it is synonymous with 'spoilt brat?) and there have been several reports from others such as the real estate agent and the boat rental man who have met or known DM who say the opposite about him, have there not? And honestly, who steals a truck for kicks? Teenagers, perhaps drug addicts or hoodlums from the ghettos who can't afford other forms of entertainment, and even those are rarely stolen by car jacking, most are stolen while unattended. It is a very small percentage of people who actually get a kick out of stealing things, and those people are called kleptomaniacs, and from what I have heard, it is very hard for kleptomaniacs to make it to their twenties without at least one prior theft charge. So I would have to assume that it was not a plan to steal it for kicks, in my opinion.

Tattoos are identifying marks, people who have tattoos know this. If you are ever charged with a crime, the first thing they do is catalog your marks, scars and tattoos, so anyone planning to commit a major crime, would have to be ridiculously stupid not to at least attempt to cover them up, especially if it could be done as easily as sticking on a bandaid. Basically even if they intended to do the one crime and not the other, they would have still put a little forethought into avoiding detection, in my opinion. For instance, if stealing a truck was the goal, as you suggest, why would they pick the hardest type of theft, car-jacking, over a type of theft (stealing it from the driveway while the owners are sleeping) that would have been far easier to get away with and leave no witnesses and give themselves longer to get away before the theft was detected? If it was planned by DM and MS, there are a million small ways that it could have been planned better. But if it was planned to make it look like the perfect set up, it couldn't have been planned better.

I would really appreciate hearing why you think the idea of a frame up job completely doesn't work for you. There are at least a few framing scenarios that fit all the known facts so far, in my opinion. They even make the more mysterious aspects, like the fact that TB's phone wasn't turned off until about 30-40 minutes into the test drive, yet the police told SB that it was turned off within a mile of their home, seem to make more sense. Just because set ups are not something that successfully happen very often, doesn't exclude it as a possibility. Test drives that lead to murder happen even less often, but plenty of people are ready to believe that is a strong possibility. If part of the evidence that the police haven't yet disclosed are, say, communications between DM and MS prior to the murder and after, about buying a used truck, will that that exonerate him, in your opinion, if it shows that they didn't even plan to steal a truck?

If one person can plan a murder over a truck, couldn't another just as easily plan one to frame someone? People hate others enough to kill them all the time, but what if you hated someone so much that you thought that killing them was too good for them, what if you wanted someone to suffer for the rest of their lives instead, wouldn't a life sentence in jail for a crime they didn't commit be a better revenge, especially on someone who has enjoyed more freedom than most people can afford to? To me that scenario makes far more logical sense than someone who has an extensive collection of expensive vehicles murdering someone for a lemon of a used truck. I am sure a lot of men felt jealous of DM's looks, money, youth and lifestyle, and that could be in part why so many are so quick to convict him without ever even hearing his version of events. And the more that I think about it, BQ's idea of a jealous suitor who was rejected in favour of DM would still make a more plausible reason to murder than over a used vehicle that appears to be worth less than the many others he already owns. But that is just my opinion, again, I would love to hear opinions about why a frame up job doesn't fit the evidence so far, other than the one we've already heard that it would be difficult to successfully plan. Many things are difficult to plan, and yet occur regardless. And again, please take into account that it is possible that any evidence of the framer could have been obliterated by the burning of the corpse and the removal of the seats and the wearing of gloves...

 

[redheart]

Has there been anything to support the idea yet that they are arrogant yahoos? I don't think even AS called DM arrogant (unless it is synonymous with 'spoilt brat?) and there have been several reports from others such as the real estate agent and the boat rental man who have met or known DM who say the opposite about him, have there not? And honestly, who steals a truck for kicks? Teenagers, perhaps drug addicts or hoodlums from the ghettos who can't afford other forms of entertainment, and even those are rarely stolen by car jacking, most are stolen while unattended. It is a very small percentage of people who actually get a kick out of stealing things, and those people are called kleptomaniacs, and from what I have heard, it is very hard for kleptomaniacs to make it to their twenties without at least one prior theft charge. So I would have to assume that it was not a plan to steal it for kicks, in my opinion.

Tattoos are identifying marks, people who have tattoos know this. If you are ever charged with a crime, the first thing they do is catalog your marks, scars and tattoos, so anyone planning to commit a major crime, would have to be ridiculously stupid not to at least attempt to cover them up, especially if it could be done as easily as sticking on a bandaid. Basically even if they intended to do the one crime and not the other, they would have still put a little forethought into avoiding detection, in my opinion. For instance, if stealing a truck was the goal, as you suggest, why would they pick the hardest type of theft, car-jacking, over a type of theft (stealing it from the driveway while the owners are sleeping) that would have been far easier to get away with and leave no witnesses and give themselves longer to get away before the theft was detected? If it was planned by DM and MS, there are a million small ways that it could have been planned better. But if it was planned to make it look like the perfect set up, it couldn't have been planned better.

I would really appreciate hearing why you think the idea of a frame up job completely doesn't work for you. There are at least a few framing scenarios that fit all the known facts so far, in my opinion. They even make the more mysterious aspects, like the fact that TB's phone wasn't turned off until about 30-40 minutes into the test drive, yet the police told SB that it was turned off within a mile of their home, seem to make more sense. Just because set ups are not something that successfully happen very often, doesn't exclude it as a possibility. Test drives that lead to murder happen even less often, but plenty of people are ready to believe that is a strong possibility. If part of the evidence that the police haven't yet disclosed are, say, communications between DM and MS prior to the murder and after, about buying a used truck, will that that exonerate him, in your opinion, if it shows that they didn't even plan to steal a truck?

If one person can plan a murder over a truck, couldn't another just as easily plan one to frame someone? People hate others enough to kill them all the time, but what if you hated someone so much that you thought that killing them was too good for them, what if you wanted someone to suffer for the rest of their lives instead, wouldn't a life sentence in jail for a crime they didn't commit be a better revenge, especially on someone who has enjoyed more freedom than most people can afford to? To me that scenario makes far more logical sense than someone who has an extensive collection of expensive vehicles murdering someone for a lemon of a used truck. I am sure a lot of men felt jealous of DM's looks, money, youth and lifestyle, and that could be in part why so many are so quick to convict him without ever even hearing his version of events. And the more that I think about it, BQ's idea of a jealous suitor who was rejected in favour of DM would still make a more plausible reason to murder than over a used vehicle that appears to be worth less than the many others he already owns. But that is just my opinion, again, I would love to hear opinions about why a frame up job doesn't fit the evidence so far, other than the one we've already heard that it would be difficult to successfully plan. Many things are difficult to plan, and yet occur regardless. And again, please take into account that it is possible that any evidence of the framer could have been obliterated by the burning of the corpse and the removal of the seats and the wearing of gloves...

There's not much point in responding to this. I feel somewhat obliged to, as you quoted me, but it's all been said before ad nauseum. Let's be honest - you wouldn't love to hear opinions about why a frame doesn't work. We've all read them and draw our own conclusions. Some of us try to keep an open mind, some of us don't.

 

[dizzy1]

Oh I don`t know about that !... I have known LE rush into a situation based on a hunch. Even if they watched DM...what could they have hoped to have found after the fact .... hardly caught red handed.



Just wanted to emphasize the word `may`.... and I do not doubt for one minute that LE re-enforce affidavits to include what they want it to include !!! JMO

I realize there may be a few bad apples in LE, but I cannot believe every PO involved in this case is crooked, and this is just a giant frame up by them to make DM look guilty.

 

[Juballee]

There's not much point in responding to this. I feel somewhat obliged to, as you quoted me, but it's all been said before ad nauseum. Let's be honest - you wouldn't love to hear opinions about why a frame doesn't work. We've all read them and draw our own conclusions. Some of us try to keep an open mind, some of us don't.

I feel slighted that you claim that I honestly do not want to hear opinions on why a frame up job wouldn't work, when I honestly do want to hear them, as I stated at least twice above. So far the only things I have heard to try to debunk a possible set up are the ideas that it would be difficult to coordinate, to which I reply that many things are, and yet still get accomplished, and the notion that if they were not guilty then they would not be sitting in jail, since other evidence to exclude them would have naturally been found, and to that I say that the people trying to set DM up have removed the seats from the truck and burned the body to remove their DNA evidence, leaving nothing behind to exonerate DM, which to me only signals good planning. For me it is much easier to believe that someone planned a good frame up here than to believe that two people working in concert could not come up with an idea better than leaving all the evidence pointing at one of them for a crime they had no motive to commit. That is why I would love to hear other opinions on why some think it is not possible for it to be a set up, I have a genuine curiosity on how others are reasoning this out, so please do not speak for me and discourage others to reply to my request. To me keeping an open mind means leaving room for the possibility that DM is actually innocent as well as considering his possible guilt, by the way, so that if you are implying that I am not open minded, I take that as an insult to my intelligence.

 

[bessie]

I'd like to hear a set-up theory. Based on the facts we know to be true at this time, how would the frame job have worked logistically?

 

[Juballee]

I realize there may be a few bad apples in LE, but I cannot believe every PO involved in this case is crooked, and this is just a giant frame up by them to make DM look guilty.

Why do so many people assume that if DM was framed that LE had to have been involved? Is it not possible that LE are themselves being duped? I am one of the biggest proponents here for the theory that DM is being framed, but have never once put forth the idea that it would LE doing the actual framing, where did this theory of LE being the framers originate? The first I have seen it suggested was by AA here as far as I recall, and his position as a verified member of LE again makes me curious as to why he (or anyone else) would put forth the idea that if DM was framed LE had to be involved. It was also then assumed that because obviously not all LE are corrupt, that it would be impossible to coordinate them all into a single set up, therefore a set up is out of the question. I will assume that there is no such thing as peer pressure in LE, and that at least one whistle blowing cop would have the guts to come out and say that there was something amiss in the investigation. Although, the way whistle blowers have been treated lately (I'm thinking of Snowden), I would not be surprised if any are reluctant to stand up for the truth these days. Of course, that's just my opinion.

 

[Snoofo]

I'm so torn! I have my first "fan" from the other side arguing with someone I'm a fan of! There's gotta be a smiley for that?!

I might be wrong but I would think my fellow alternative theorists are well aware that it is just possible, though very unlikely, these guys are guilty as charged for Murder 1. It is a little more possible and a little more likely they had something to do with Tim Bosma leaving his house that night and maybe that something even involved a special truck engine. Maybe I say, because it is not proven, but we weren't born yesterday so as to proclaim that without a SHADOW of a doubt there was absolutely no such plan to get that truck for free, just for fun.

Of course it is possible, but since it feels like 95% of the sleuths seem to believe these guys are guilty as charged or guilty of manslaughter at the very least, it is with an open mind others know it does not serve TB well to close the case right there. And if one or both of the accused are innocent, they shouldn't be convicted just because they were dumb enough to have somehow put themselves anywhere near this predicament.

Again, we do not know the exact setup because we do not know the exact people in their lives (p.ban) and we cannot post more plausible scenarios that name names or make strong references without names (WS rules).

About this tattoo business. It is not just the tattoo. I still believe the term "innocent dupe" describing DM and I don't trust Smich as much and this is why: MS supposedly wore that hood-up hoodie to both test drives. He was disguised. Forget the illegible tattoos, DM didn't even wear a baseball hat. He didnt know who had a surveillance camera and who didn't! Why would he put his whole face and head out there to be recognized when he is about to commit a crime. He could have had a whole group of friends conspire against him.

I just think a successful framing, either by friends or a larger force would involve at least one person he liked and trusted who was in his circle and could make that frame happen.

Best possibilities? MOO:
Hangar access/O.C. Plot, probably re drugs (punishment for not cooperating)

chop shop/O.C. Plot - some friends may totally be in on it. (Punishment, jealousy). They think they are being asked to find a specific truck for the chopping by O.C. And are threatened to go along. O.C. Intercepts test drive very close to TB's and they either take over, or just leave the two accused at the scene with a dead body. Motive? This O.C. cell owes DM a lot of money for cars. DM doesn't go straight to police and tries to cover up hastily in his shock, knowing a) nobody will ever believe the truth if he came out with it and b) his chop shop is exposed. OR DM really is gullible, trusting, treats these friends as brothers and he didn't know his friends were operating a chop shop on his property, because he is clueless that way. They needed a specific truck and set him up to test drive it, thinking he's doing it legally and was called upon because he has one. MS takes over.

Jealous psycho - this could also be a woman (unrequited love/competition/punishment for being DM)

lease termination plot (major O.C.) (prove illegal activity, terminate low-rent lease, make way more money)

Gotta go!

 

[Juballee]

I'd like to hear a set-up theory. Based on the facts we know to be true at this time, how would the frame job have worked logistically?

Setting aside for a moment the motive to frame DM, and focusing just on the logistics of it, here is a theory on how DM could have been framed:

Framer owns a computer and has searched for and found the addresses of DM's properties, his family history, his mother's name and her address. Framer then follows DM around for a while, learning his routine. Framer follows DM to TB's house for a test drive from a distance so as not to be seen. DM, MS and TB leave for a test drive, framer waits within a mile if TB's house for TB to return about 30-40 minutes later. Framer flags down TB with a story of needing help, then quickly kills TB and turns off TB's phone. Framer hops in TB's truck and drives it to DM's farm, stopping on the way to dispose of TB's phone in a not very well hidden spot in Brantford (where it is suggested that only TB's truck is seen on surveillance footage near the phone dump site, from what I recall). Once at the farm, with or without an incinerator, he proceeds to possibly dismember the body and burn it beyond recognition to obliterate the framer's DNA evidence, and leaves the body at the farm. Framer then drives TB's truck to the hanger, which DM and MS surely would have left by then, where he uses the tools available, while wearing gloves, to remove the seats, which he then destroys before loading the truck into one of DM's available trailers. It is possible that the framer then sat back and waited for DM to discover a body on his farm or a hot truck in his hanger which he would then have to either call the cops about and unwittingly incriminate himself, or take it upon himself to hide it better, in which case the framer could then get photos of DM destroying incriminating evidence to use to blackmail or frame him further. It is also possible that the framer got tired of waiting for DM to accidentally incriminate himself and so decided to force the play by moving the truck to the mother's house, hoping that either DM would notice a trailer missing or that MB would notice a trailer appearing. It is also possible that the framer brought the stolen Harley in it's own trailer to the hanger to give DM a motive for stealing a vehicle or to replace the trailer taken to his mothers house.

This scenario explains TB's phone not being turned off for 40 minutes, and the fact that it was turned off so close to his home, it explains why DM would be silent, stunned and still feel remorseful over the death of an innocent man. It explains why LE have not found evidence that it was not DM, and why all the evidence so far is only circumstantial. It explains why DM and MS would not disguise themselves and would smile at a witness without worry of being identified later, and why they wouldn't cover their tattoos. It explains why they wouldn't hide such damning evidence better when they had so much time and resources to, and it would explain why they won't say who the third person with them was. To me it honestly explains all the mysterious parts of this case that don't seem to make sense. I am sure that there are some holes in this general theory, and again, I would love to hear them pointed out, but I think that any holes here are not as big as the holes in the theory that a guy with everything going for him would throw it all away for something he already has plenty of, and not bother to hide any of the evidence.

 

[Snoofo]

I'd like to hear a set-up theory. Based on the facts we know to be true at this time, how would the frame job have worked logistically?

Well Bessie, with due respect, the WS rules bar us from stating anything that would be that plausible. Within the rules our scenarios would be as reliable as "unnamed sources" in MSM.

Since LE has not given us the logistics of their allegations, it is hard enough to connect the dots there, IMO, so how does one present logistics of an alternate view?

We can present a theory to which the common reply will be "where's the evidence!"
We can refute the widely accepted theory as to the guilt of the accused, citing no solid evidence, only to be told "they were arrested, so the police must have evidence".
So, what gives?? :dunno:

Based on what evidence we have, they cannot be found guilty. Maybe based on the evidence being withheld they can be found guilty, but in my opinion the evidence we have does not prove guilt, notwithstanding the evidence lays awfully close to DM. So if that cannot be proven with certainty at the moment, how is one to propose an alternative, which would also require additional evidence that could only be made up at this point?

And thanks Bessie to you and all the mods, for putting up with us through thick and thin. I think we are all here for the sake of justice. People think very differently is all. I think it is interesting to observe our human minds, how one tidbit can be thrown out there from the media and its as though the two "sides" here are truly looking at it from opposite ends of a room. Interesting indeed!

eace: sleuth on dudes! :rockon:

 

[Snoofo]

Why do so many people assume that if DM was framed that LE had to have been involved? Is it not possible that LE are themselves being duped? I am one of the biggest proponents here for the theory that DM is being framed, but have never once put forth the idea that it would LE doing the actual framing, where did this theory of LE being the framers originate? The first I have seen it suggested was by AA here as far as I recall, and his position as a verified member of LE again makes me curious as to why he (or anyone else) would put forth the idea that if DM was framed LE had to be involved. It was also then assumed that because obviously not all LE are corrupt, that it would be impossible to coordinate them all into a single set up, therefore a set up is out of the question. I will assume that there is no such thing as peer pressure in LE, and that at least one whistle blowing cop would have the guts to come out and say that there was something amiss in the investigation. Although, the way whistle blowers have been treated lately (I'm thinking of Snowden), I would not be surprised if any are reluctant to stand up for the truth these days. Of course, that's just my opinion.

Agreed. It never once crossed my mind either (especially Kavanagh - have I made it clear yet I'm a fan of this guy?!). I'd say it was in May when a websleuther (I believe a non-alternative theorist to boot!) posted that he/she thought there could be "badges" involved. At the time I remember nodding, shrugging, and hitting "thanks", since I have always been a a strong proponent of the OC plot theory and, well, lets face it, where there is OC there is often at least one crooked cop.

So I can see one bad cop, in a wider and more dangerous scenario, but not all of LE and not the whole Homicide Squad for heavens sake. I am not sure I've ever read more than that one badge comment in here. I have certainly never posted anything about LE involvement myself. When I've mentioned trusting K's verbal info more than the others, its not because I think they're crooked, it's because I'm never sure they aren't throwing information out there for a different purpose to aid their case against the accused, not to assist the real killers.

Jubes, I like your scenario. I wasn't even going to try. You have a much better way of organizing your ideas!

 

[bessie]

Well Bessie, with due respect, the WS rules bar us from stating anything that would be that plausible. Within the rules our scenarios would be as reliable as "unnamed sources" in MSM.

The rules bar you from making allegations against specific individuals. Hypothetical scenarios are allowed. In fact, that is supposed to be the purpose of this thread.

Since LE has not given us the logistics of their allegations, it is hard enough to connect the dots there, IMO, so how does one present logistics of an alternate view?

We can present a theory to which the common reply will be "where's the evidence!"
We can refute the widely accepted theory as to the guilt of the accused, citing no solid evidence, only to be told "they were arrested, so the police must have evidence".
So, what gives?? :dunno:

And is that a not true statement? Further, I've not seen such a simplistic argument offered on its own. On the contrary, we have an entire forum filled with discussion and analyses of the facts leading to plausible theories.

Based on what evidence we have, they cannot be found guilty. Maybe based on the evidence being withheld they can be found guilty, but in my opinion the evidence we have does not prove guilt, notwithstanding the evidence lays awfully close to DM. So if that cannot be proven with certainty at the moment, how is one to propose an alternative, which would also require additional evidence that could only be made up at this point?

Times, dates, locations -- the facts are there to work with. And what's not there, you can seek out, the same as members do in almost every case on this board, thus the name. The results can be quite impressive.

And thanks Bessie to you and all the mods, for putting up with us through thick and thin. I think we are all here for the sake of justice. People think very differently is all. I think it is interesting to observe our human minds, how one tidbit can be thrown out there from the media and its as though the two "sides" here are truly looking at it from opposite ends of a room. Interesting indeed!

eace: sleuth on dudes! :rockon:

Well, there ya go.

You're welcome, btw.

 

[Carli]

Agreed. It never once crossed my mind either (especially Kavanagh - have I made it clear yet I'm a fan of this guy?!). I'd say it was in May when a websleuther (I believe a non-alternative theorist to boot!) posted that he/she thought there could be "badges" involved. At the time I remember nodding, shrugging, and hitting "thanks", since I have always been a a strong proponent of the OC plot theory and, well, lets face it, where there is OC there is often at least one crooked cop.

So I can see one bad cop, in a wider and more dangerous scenario, but not all of LE and not the whole Homicide Squad for heavens sake. I am not sure I've ever read more than that one badge comment in here. I have certainly never posted anything about LE involvement myself. When I've mentioned trusting K's verbal info more than the others, its not because I think they're crooked, it's because I'm never sure they aren't throwing information out there for a different purpose to aid their case against the accused, not to assist the real killers.

Jubes, I like your scenario. I wasn't even going to try. You have a much better way of organizing your ideas!

Like several others, I too have tried to put forward various possibilities that could provide alternative explanations to the simplistic "trail of crumbs" that has been presented so far. I certainly don't see LE has a pack of Dudley Do-Rights, as current and recent history amply confirms, but there seems no particular reason for them to be fixing this case and I'm baffled by how that notion took root. When I read the comment about "badges" being involved, I thought the hinted reference was to members of one or other of the motorcycle gangs that have helped put Hamilton on the national OC map. That's still something which has potential relevance IMO but this avenue is outside the rules and so be it. MOO IMHO It never dawned on me for a moment that the reference could be LE. However, now that a member of LE itself has put forward the idea, my interest is sparked. Could fast flights and an otherwise empty airline hangar for secure storage play any role in something like this, for instance? http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/ontario-cop-and-ex-cop-charged-with-cheese-smuggling-1.974718 Just askin'. IMO MOO IMHO

 

[bessie]

Setting aside for a moment the motive to frame DM, and focusing just on the logistics of it, here is a theory on how DM could have been framed:

Framer owns a computer and has searched for and found the addresses of DM's properties, his family history, his mother's name and her address. Framer then follows DM around for a while, learning his routine. Framer follows DM to TB's house for a test drive from a distance so as not to be seen. DM, MS and TB leave for a test drive, framer waits within a mile if TB's house for TB to return about 30-40 minutes later. Framer flags down TB with a story of needing help, then quickly kills TB and turns off TB's phone. Framer hops in TB's truck and drives it to DM's farm, stopping on the way to dispose of TB's phone in a not very well hidden spot in Brantford (where it is suggested that only TB's truck is seen on surveillance footage near the phone dump site, from what I recall). Once at the farm, with or without an incinerator, he proceeds to possibly dismember the body and burn it beyond recognition to obliterate the framer's DNA evidence, and leaves the body at the farm. Framer then drives TB's truck to the hanger, which DM and MS surely would have left by then, where he uses the tools available, while wearing gloves, to remove the seats, which he then destroys before loading the truck into one of DM's available trailers. It is possible that the framer then sat back and waited for DM to discover a body on his farm or a hot truck in his hanger which he would then have to either call the cops about and unwittingly incriminate himself, or take it upon himself to hide it better, in which case the framer could then get photos of DM destroying incriminating evidence to use to blackmail or frame him further. It is also possible that the framer got tired of waiting for DM to accidentally incriminate himself and so decided to force the play by moving the truck to the mother's house, hoping that either DM would notice a trailer missing or that MB would notice a trailer appearing. It is also possible that the framer brought the stolen Harley in it's own trailer to the hanger to give DM a motive for stealing a vehicle or to replace the trailer taken to his mothers house.

This scenario explains TB's phone not being turned off for 40 minutes, and the fact that it was turned off so close to his home, it explains why DM would be silent, stunned and still feel remorseful over the death of an innocent man. It explains why LE have not found evidence that it was not DM, and why all the evidence so far is only circumstantial. It explains why DM and MS would not disguise themselves and would smile at a witness without worry of being identified later, and why they wouldn't cover their tattoos. It explains why they wouldn't hide such damning evidence better when they had so much time and resources to, and it would explain why they won't say who the third person with them was. To me it honestly explains all the mysterious parts of this case that don't seem to make sense. I am sure that there are some holes in this general theory, and again, I would love to hear them pointed out, but I think that any holes here are not as big as the holes in the theory that a guy with everything going for him would throw it all away for something he already has plenty of, and not bother to hide any of the evidence.

Thanks. From a logistical standpoint, it's a pretty convincing theory. Its weakness, IMO, is the perpetrator's presumed motivation to execute such an elaborate plan -- which includes the murder of an innocent human being -- simply to frame DM. Wouldn't it be easier to kill him and be done with it? On the other hand, from a DM-did-it POV, motive is also a problem, as you've pointed out. So I'd call it a wash.

 

[Carli]

I'm so torn! I have my first "fan" from the other side arguing with someone I'm a fan of! There's gotta be a smiley for that?!

I might be wrong but I would think my fellow alternative theorists are well aware that it is just possible, though very unlikely, these guys are guilty as charged for Murder 1. It is a little more possible and a little more likely they had something to do with Tim Bosma leaving his house that night and maybe that something even involved a special truck engine. Maybe I say, because it is not proven, but we weren't born yesterday so as to proclaim that without a SHADOW of a doubt there was absolutely no such plan to get that truck for free, just for fun.

Of course it is possible, but since it feels like 95% of the sleuths seem to believe these guys are guilty as charged or guilty of manslaughter at the very least, it is with an open mind others know it does not serve TB well to close the case right there. And if one or both of the accused are innocent, they shouldn't be convicted just because they were dumb enough to have somehow put themselves anywhere near this predicament.

Again, we do not know the exact setup because we do not know the exact people in their lives (p.ban) and we cannot post more plausible scenarios that name names or make strong references without names (WS rules).

About this tattoo business. It is not just the tattoo. I still believe the term "innocent dupe" describing DM and I don't trust Smich as much and this is why: MS supposedly wore that hood-up hoodie to both test drives. He was disguised. Forget the illegible tattoos, DM didn't even wear a baseball hat. He didnt know who had a surveillance camera and who didn't! Why would he put his whole face and head out there to be recognized when he is about to commit a crime. He could have had a whole group of friends conspire against him.

I just think a successful framing, either by friends or a larger force would involve at least one person he liked and trusted who was in his circle and could make that frame happen.

Best possibilities? MOO:
Hangar access/O.C. Plot, probably re drugs (punishment for not cooperating)

chop shop/O.C. Plot - some friends may totally be in on it. (Punishment, jealousy). They think they are being asked to find a specific truck for the chopping by O.C. And are threatened to go along. O.C. Intercepts test drive very close to TB's and they either take over, or just leave the two accused at the scene with a dead body. Motive? This O.C. cell owes DM a lot of money for cars. DM doesn't go straight to police and tries to cover up hastily in his shock, knowing a) nobody will ever believe the truth if he came out with it and b) his chop shop is exposed. OR DM really is gullible, trusting, treats these friends as brothers and he didn't know his friends were operating a chop shop on his property, because he is clueless that way. They needed a specific truck and set him up to test drive it, thinking he's doing it legally and was called upon because he has one. MS takes over.

Jealous psycho - this could also be a woman (unrequited love/competition/punishment for being DM)

lease termination plot (major O.C.) (prove illegal activity, terminate low-rent lease, make way more money)

Gotta go!

Well said, imo. Then, of course, there's that other very large elephant in the room. Statistically, the vast majority of murderers are known to their victims either through direct or indirect association. Over one third of those murders committed by strangers have a drug or gang link. Early in the piece it was confirmed by LE that TB was not known to DM. However both individuals had a large number of employees, acquaintances, friends and/or family within their circles of influence, any one or more of whom could well have harboured murderous intentions involving DM and TB - without, in fact, their being known to each other. IMO MOO IMHO

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2012001/article/11738-eng.htm#a4