Discussion between the verdict and sentencing

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I'm sure I remember reading an article not long after Pistorius was arrested which said that Frank said he didn't hear anything because of the noise of a water feature near his quarters.

The only water feature I can find is a plunge pool type thing which I think is towards the rear of house, visible from Pistorius's balcony. Does that mean Frank's room is also towards the back?

036499-9290bdd6-2e57-11e4-8816-75edfb844e64.jpg

http://www.news.com.au/world/oscar-...nkamp-was-killed/story-fndir2ev-1227040036666
 
Not pointing fingers at anyone…

Here is an example of how evidence gets muddled up…

I take exception to this AJ. Totally unnecessary & bordering on rude. "I am not pointing any fingers" - and then highlighting a post by me in red!

I am not making my whole life about the OP trial, so I am not au fait with exact timings. Sorry about that.

I made it quite, quite clear that I was estimating...even said at the end that I may well be a few seconds out.

My post was to show how I thought things panned out rather than to give a scientific analysis.

This is a chat forum, not a jury room.
 
I must admit I have a hard time believing Chiziweni didn't hear anything...given that neighbors that lived quite a distance were woken up by the screams..the shots...etc..etc..

yep, he was awake, and dressed, and in the street when carice arrived. that's only ten minutes after the second bangs.

frank, henke, and the telephone receptionist at netcare would have made interesting additional witnesses.
 
In what universe is that reasonably possibly true…??… It sound so made up and nonsensical to me.

Plus that tale only takes into account OP's version of events… no other testimony, evidence, expert evidence… and none of the flagrant contradictions during OP's cross-examination and none of the changes and omissions in OP's previous statements such as in the bail affidavit and the plea explanation.

It's obviously a joke, for goodness sake.

Can you calm down a bit?
 
I'm sure I remember reading an article not long after Pistorius was arrested which said that Frank said he didn't hear anything because of the noise of a water feature near his quarters.

The only water feature I can find is a plunge pool type thing which I think is towards the rear of house, visible from Pistorius's balcony. Does that mean Frank's room is also towards the back?

View attachment 59905

http://www.news.com.au/world/oscar-...nkamp-was-killed/story-fndir2ev-1227040036666

I thought that was the Stipps servant? I'll dig around and see if I can find it.

Edit, you're right, it was OP's servant who couldn't hear because of the water feature. Where is the water feature? Or does he mean the pool pump?

Murder Servant posted a pic of where Frank's quarters would be, round the front, off from the kitchen, so he's far away from the pool. Nothing is adding up. lol
 
Haahaa :lol: .. brilliant, delilah :great: (there's a wee bit in there about the position he was in when he whispered to Reeva, which was as he was getting his gun, I think, and not when he was going down the corridor .. but apart from that, it just about sums it up, really!)

Argh, I'm guilty as charged, jay jay! I hope one small mistake in my evidence does not result in my being Masipa'd..
 
@ AJ, I wonder if it was windy that night for the jeans to have fallen from the railing, if they were hanging out there. If they were dragged by the dogs to under the toilet window, there would probably be evidence of teeth marks and/or saliva. lol
But as you say, they're probably not important but then again, they could be, it's a little bit of a lot of what OP knows and we will never know. :gaah:

The bottom line is that we have 2 possibilities :

A- OP's version of events is roughly the truth of what happened, or

B- OP's version of events is a fabrication constructed to fit around the evidence.

If one opts for option B… then so many things go out the window (sorry for the pun) :

1- The toilet door was perhaps never locked, the key not even there
2- Reeva did not have her phone with her in the toilet cubicle
3- The fans had absolutely no part to play that night, nor did the LED light, etc…
4- OP's cellphones were not both in the bedroom unplugged on the bedside table
5- Reeva perhaps never went to bed
6- etc…
7- etc…

so yes, Reeva's jeans outside under the bathroom window could be evidence in option B… but the fact remains that the jeans cannot help you disprove option A and prove option B.

Like you said we will never know what really happened.
 
About Reeva's jeans…

Let us say Nel had asked OP how the jeans ended up outside the house under the bathroom window.

Does everyone agree that OP had indeed prepared for such a question ?… I myself do.

What would have been OP's answer ?

Most certainly : "I do not know"

If pressed further by Nel or reexamined by Roux to speculate on said jeans

"Reeva had told me she had went back to the house to do some laundry"… common cause evidence, in Whatsapp messages

"I know she always air-dries her jeans because they shrink to much in the dryer"… makes sense, all my girlfriends do that

"It was a beautiful sunny hot day"… common cause evidence

"Perhaps she hung her jeans on the balcony railing"… the rest of Reeva's clothing was in her bag in the bedroom on the sofa

"She forgot about them and they fell with a gust of wind"… not uncommon occurrence when clothing goes from wet and heavy to dry and light

"My dogs love playing with new and novel things they find"… true of about every dog

"My dogs probably played with jeans which ended up under the bathroom window"… a dog is seen next to the jeans when photograph is taken

… now what is Nel to do with this answer ? how does it further the State's case ?

What is Masipa to do with that information ?

… the answer is nothing… it does not prove nor disprove OP's version of events… it does not contradict any other evidence or testimony.

The jeans are legally useless and totally non-probative with respect to the case… as for personal curiosity and speculation on how they could fit in an alternate premeditated murder version of events, I agree the jeans are fascinating.

I'm pretty sure that the jeans had a belt on them, which would suggest that they were not newly laundered.

The point is that we've formed a firm impression of OP's guilt from all the little things that go together to make up the mosaic.

I feel that Masipa should have been party to the full mosaic, as we are. She might well have decided that the presence of a belted pair of jeans outside the bathroom window was of no probative value, but, if you add them to the damaged bedroom door, bashed tiles and bath plate, it would be not be unreasonable to infer that domestic violence had taken place.
 
It's obviously a joke, for goodness sake.

Can you calm down a bit?

LOL… :hilarious:

I know it's a joke… and I'm perfectly calm.

I think you must not like me very much for some reason and read negative emotions into my posts…. I assure you they are not meant that way :)
 
None of these things are particularly relevant.

It makes no overall difference whether Mrs Stipp awoke at 3.02 or 3.12. The important parts of her testimony remain unchanged....a woman screaming, a man shouting and the bathroom light on. She may well have been mistaken about her time, but that has no bearing on what she saw and heard. It is a huge mistake to throw out someone's entire testimony because of one possible error....particularly when material aspects of their testimony are corroborated by three other people.

A lie is intentional. That's what it means. The only liar in this case was Pistorius. It is when people lie that you should dismiss most of what they say not when they make a mistake. Lie vs mistake speaks to honesty, integrity and overall reliability. His whole testimony should have been disregarded.

Mrs VDM was never able to be specific about the time she heard the bangs, so you cannot really conclude anything from that.

Yes, Michelle Burger described "blood curdling screams". So? The Stipp's described them as "terrified, terrified screams" and "half out of her mind in fear". This was not media hype - the overwhelming sense from all these ear witnesses was that a woman was in fear of her life. This is not compatible with a man who says he was creeping down a corridor to confront an intruder.

You should also bear in mind - as Masipa didn't manage to - that all four witnesses distinctly and clearly heard two voices, a male and a female. It was the very reason that they took the actions they did regarding the events.

It stretches credibility too far to suggest that not only did they ALL mistake a male voice for a female one, but they also mistook one voice for two. All of them made that mistake.

Highly, highly improbable.

Brilliant post, thank you, LemonM!
 
i would pay to read frank's version of events. don't think it would be 200 pages of him dreaming of sheep.

:floorlaugh: I don't think it would be either, but then again I have my own theory. I think Frank might have been partying at his place that night and the mystery jeans in the yard were removed from a lady friend before she could even get inside... you know, at about 1:56am ?? moo
 
I'm pretty sure that the jeans had a belt on them, which would suggest that they were not newly laundered.

The point is that we've formed a firm impression of OP's guilt from all the little things that go together to make up the mosaic.

I feel that Masipa should have been party to the full mosaic, as we are. She might well have decided that the presence of a belted pair of jeans outside the bathroom window was of no probative value, but, if you add them to the damaged bedroom door, bashed tiles and bath plate, it would be not be unreasonable to infer that domestic violence had taken place.

Nope… sorry… no belt… just your imagination playing tricks on your memory !!… no worries it happens to all of us… think Baba who was beyond sure that he had called OP first

And the jeans look freshly laundered as they are very flat as if they had dried hanging up

View attachment 59912

… totally agree with the mosaic bit
 
http://www.theguardian.com/world/vi...al-witness-heard-blood-curdling-screams-audio

Michelle Berger says just after 3, she woke up from a woman's terrible screams. Just revisiting her testimony, tape is 4 m and 52 sec long.

And the translator here was absolutely pathetic! Michelle had to correct her on several occasions, and the translater changed Michelle's words up on several occasions. She said in Afrikaans "My husband jumped up and ran to the balcony", but the translator says "My husband jumped up and went to the balcony". I know it is not significant, but I am absolutely gobsmacked that this is the best translator South Africa has to offer!! They should have gotten the sign language dude from Nelson mandela's funeral!!
 
The bottom line is that we have 2 possibilities :

A- OP's version of events is roughly the truth of what happened, or

B- OP's version of events is a fabrication constructed to fit around the evidence.

If one opts for option B… then so many things go out the window (sorry for the pun) :

1- The toilet door was perhaps never locked, the key not even there
2- Reeva did not have her phone with her in the toilet cubicle
3- The fans had absolutely no part to play that night, nor did the LED light, etc…
4- OP's cellphones were not both in the bedroom unplugged on the bedside table
5- Reeva perhaps never went to bed
6- etc…
7- etc…

so yes, Reeva's jeans outside under the bathroom window could be evidence in option B… but the fact remains that the jeans cannot help you disprove option A and prove option B.

Like you said we will never know what really happened.

Here's another one for Option B -

The toilet light not working.

so was it -

no bulb in socket

bulb in socket, but blown

the switch and/or socket not working


Was this satisfactorily answered? It would be a major oversight if it wasn't 100% verified, because I've said before OP's version would be blown out of the water if that toilet light was working. jmo
 
And the translator here was absolutely pathetic! Michelle had to correct her on several occasions, and the translater changed Michelle's words up on several occasions. She said in Afrikaans "My husband jumped up and ran to the balcony", but the translator says "My husband jumped up and went to the balcony". I know it is not significant, but I am absolutely gobsmacked that this is the best translator South Africa has to offer!! They should have gotten the sign language dude from Nelson mandela's funeral!!

Definitely right Apples, in such a serious matter as a murder trial, the translation should be word for word. lol the sign language guy, how on earth that happened in the first place, the security must be crap.
 
Nope… sorry… no belt… just your imagination playing tricks on your memory !!… no worries it happens to all of us… think Baba who was beyond sure that he had called OP first

And the jeans look freshly laundered as they are very flat as if they had dried hanging up

View attachment 59912

… totally agree with the mosaic bit

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I take exception to this AJ. Totally unnecessary & bordering on rude. "I am not pointing any fingers" - and then highlighting a post by me in red!

I am not making my whole life about the OP trial, so I am not au fait with exact timings. Sorry about that.

I made it quite, quite clear that I was estimating...even said at the end that I may well be a few seconds out.

My post was to show how I thought things panned out rather than to give a scientific analysis.

This is a chat forum, not a jury room.

Apologies… I was pointing to AW2B how information taken on this site is not always exact and can lead to confusion

I had just read your post a few minutes back and we were discussing the timeline and Mike's phone call to security… It just jumped at me that this was the perfect example.

I meant no disrespected to you… God knows I have made many such mistakes.

The bold/red was to point out a very tiny and very specific part of your lengthy post… which was very good and did not hinge at all on that time for Mike's call to security… so I wanted to be sure that the whole post was not interpreted as being incorrect.

The "not pointing any fingers" was specifically written so as not to single you out and avoid such perception of rudeness…

Again apologies… I truly believe if you look at my posts before that one you will see that it was meant to be mean or disrespectful.
 
Argh, I'm guilty as charged, jay jay! I hope one small mistake in my evidence does not result in my being Masipa'd..

satirical yes, but what i found interesting reading your piece was the number of times op passed back through the bedroom - with the chance to raise the security alarm, panic button or grab a phone and call netcare - but chose not to.

if he believed it was reeva behind the door [or whoever] and he really had serious intentions on helping/saving her [listen carefully masipa] why did he delay these possible life-saving opportunities...
 
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