Discussion between the verdict and sentencing

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The fact that he tried to resuscitate Reeva, IMO should have been chalked up as a lie by Masipa, since she ruled that Reeva couldn't have breathed for a few seconds after the last shot, and therefore she couldn't have screamed, but yet she claims that because he tried to resuscitate her, it proves that he was remorseful, thus innocent.

I find the fact that he was trying to 'resuscitate' Reeva with his fingers down her throat after he claims to have sat sobbing over her for an indeterminate period of time when he sobbingly said "she wasn't breathing" highly suspect.

You can't resuscitate anyone that way, but even the best CPR in the world will not resuscitate a dead person. So whatever he was doing was all for show in my view, along with the sobbing and praying to God when Dr Stipp arrived. A cynical loathsome act to cover up what he had done.
 
thanks for the reply, and compelling. i very much agree with all that.
i had narrowed down between 3:15:51-03:16:13 for the shots.
[after stipps call, and before the neighbour's first failed call]

Dr Stipp heard the second '3 loud bangs' just before his call to Security at 03:15:51. So I have the shots at 03:15 - -03:15:51 (less a few seconds to allow for dialling and getting through)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFZA03eu9NM @ 30:00 onwards
 
After the gun-bat sequence is not sufficiently contradicted by State so then she moves on to Burger Johnson etc must be wrong. And the fact that they are "adamant" and "refuse to concede" actually works against them as it doesn't fit the gun-bat sequence and her interpretation of the phone data chronology. ( Theses to all us WSers were the strong witnesses - to her too strong?!)

Masipa:
"Significantly Ms Burger refused to concede that she could have missed hearing the first sounds – that is the shots – as she might have been asleep at the time and that what she heard was a cricket bat striking against the toilet door. The evidence of this witness as well as that of her husband, Mr Johnson, is sought to corroborate her evidence, was correctly criticised in my view as unreliable…..They simply related what they thought they heard. They were, however, genuinely mistaken in what they heard as the chronology of events will show…..
…Both of them and the Stipps were adamant that they, in addition to the shots, heard screams of a woman in distress……"

Regardless of the weirdness, cherry-picking, recurring "admonishments" to State that they haven't done enough, omissions or convenient exclusions and some doses of clear logic sprinkled in various parts he still CLEARLY demonstrated he knew the consequences of firing at that toilet door so part of me wonders why she bothered even summing them up.

Don't think all the ear witnesses now want a whole lot of thanks and simpering understanding! Especially EVDM - whose main point was the row went on intermittently 2am-3am so who cares if security briefly drove by at 2.20

Like the extension lead and police tampering that she rightfully cast aside as diversions she should have focused more on reading up on eventualis, error in objecto, animus etc.

Wonder how Cpt Mangena feels about it all? Bet he's wondering why he bothered too.
 
RSBM
.

So whatever he was doing was all for show in my view, along with the sobbing and praying to God when Dr Stipp arrived. A cynical loathsome act to cover up what he had done.

Quite! And if Masipa and her assessors didn't want to go with that reading they might have inferred, alternatively, it to be blind panic from a perpetrator who was realising the consequences, for himself, of his actions.
 
I find the fact that he was trying to 'resuscitate' Reeva with his fingers down her throat after he claims to have sat sobbing over her for an indeterminate period of time when he sobbingly said "she wasn't breathing" highly suspect.

You can't resuscitate anyone that way, but even the best CPR in the world will not resuscitate a dead person. So whatever he was doing was all for show in my view, along with the sobbing and praying to God when Dr Stipp arrived. A cynical loathsome act to cover up what he had done.
BIB - a show which he continued on the stand. It's unbelievable that Masipa accepted his post-killing conduct as 'evidence' he couldn't have murdered Reeva. I've lost count of the times (here in the UK) where partners have been murdered, and their loved ones appear on TV, sobbing and distraught and appealing for witnesses - and then later it turns out they were the murderer! How could Masipa have been so dangerously naive?
 
BIB - a show which he continued on the stand. It's unbelievable that Masipa accepted his post-killing conduct as 'evidence' he couldn't have murdered Reeva. I've lost count of the times (here in the UK) where partners have been murdered, and their loved one appears on TV, sobbing and distraught and appealing for witnesses - and then later it turns out they were the murderer! How could Masipa have been so dangerously naive?

BIB - absolutely! It just beggars belief doesn't it?
 
It would be good to hear the opinion of the principal earwitnesses and what they feel about Masipa's judgement. They didn't have to come forward, they didn't know each other and yet they reported very similar experiences. I am stunned at how she dismissed them totally. Are they allowed to comment before the case is totally dead? Though, as professional people, they probably would not indulge the press. It may be that they will never get involved again if they hear somebody screaming. Very sad.

If I was one of the principal witnesses, my opinion would not be printable.
 
I'm wondering if possibly Masipa always knew she couldn't convict him of a murder charge and the reason she seemed to be reading the verdicts for the first time was because she had her assessors write them up and is possibly blaming them for her looking like such a contradictory (if not corrupt) fool worldwide now.

What, a month to produce the verdict and she didn't have time to read it all through? Or didn't think it necessary? Surely not.
 
On page 12 there is a typo: "cricket bat" is written as "cricket back". I wonder how many other mistakes are contained in this doc...:gaah:

I expect there'll be many more to come. (:

It would have been really funny if transcript had read "cricket sounds" ... I'm pretty sure nobody here has forgotten the sound of crickets in the background of DT's sound test of cricket bat. :floorlaugh:
 
Mr Fossil, thanks for your continued work on the timeline and phone data. I wonder if the timeline thread will spring back into life?

I'm so angry with the verdict. Am on holiday but can't seem to put this injustice down. I would be all over analysing the timeline again if I thought the PT use it somehow.

Valentines Day, intimate homicide, argument heard, forensics confirm stomach contents, preposterous chain of misfortune from killer...Masipa should have worked from that starting point and viewed the circumstantial evidence as the core facts it represents.
 
I emailed the NPA spokesperson to express my outrage at Masipa's verdict, saying she had basically given anyone an excuse to kill with impunity, and got a nice reply stating that my "sentiments are shared by many in this country" and not to lose hope, but to allow the process to run its course, after which they will consider their options.

Crikey , that was nice of them to reply at all - and you're right, and they're right. What it means now is ...woe betide anyone with a really serious grudge living in the same property as you in SA........you could be shot just getting up during the night , through a door and claim Putative Private Defence, that you thought the person the other side was coming out to get you, strangle you, shoot you...............ridiculous and dangerous precedent.

What angers me is that Nel made it very clear by getting Oscar to say that he could see the door handle of that toilet door and it did not move, - it was also demonstrated in Court that that handle would make a noise if someone unlocked it, and turned the latch to come out--------and as Oscar did not say he say the handle move............then he didn't see that anyone was coming out of that toilet to get him, or the handle would have moved,--- he therefore was impulsive and further blows his ridiculous version that he thought Reeva was an Intruder out the window - Of course that story was his only option, that's why it's not rocket science that he made it up from the very outset- just because he was consistent with the Intruder version , doesn't make it true-

I can't believe the Judge believed Oscar's version must be true because he thought of it so early on that morning after he'd shot Reeva, he's a good liar ............even his ex has said he's a good liar ! Guilty Defendant's lie to get off on serious charges like murder to avoid lengthly sentences, it's not difficult to work out, the Judge must have come across lying Defendant's in Court before !!! fgs.
 
Mr Fossil, thanks for your continued work on the timeline and phone data. I wonder if the timeline thread will spring back into life?

I'm so angry with the verdict. Am on holiday but can't seem to put this injustice down. I would be all over analysing the timeline again if I thought the PT use it somehow.

Valentines Day, intimate homicide, argument heard, forensics confirm stomach contents, preposterous chain of misfortune from killer...Masipa should have worked from that starting point and viewed the circumstantial evidence as the core facts it represents.

Thank you.

The SAPS / NPA have many of my findings (but unfortunately post-trial) and I'm sure if there's anything in there that can be used it will be. There would be so much more I could do with a little more data! That said, I'm sure they can figure the bits I'm missing if it looks to be important to achieving justice.

I shall continue to work on it, regardless of whether it can be used or not. I firmly believe there is more evidence in the data coupled with the testimony.
 
This document makes for very interesting reading but is rather long. I have no background in law of any sort but I am living in hopes I have interpreted the last two subsections as giving hope that the prosecution may still be able to appeal (Section 17). The earlier points were of general interest.

http://www.justice.gov.za/salrc/reports/r_prj73_appeal_2000dec.pdf

Appeals by the prosecution Page 31


Prosecutors right of appeal Page 32


The common law has however been modified by statute in varying degrees, both in the
UK and the Commonwealth generally, and there are now five possible basic sets of
situations in relation to trial on indictment –

(a) no right of appeal by the prosecutor;
(b) a right of appeal or "reference" on a point of law, but with no affect on the
outcome of the trial giving rise to it;
(c) a right of appeal against leniency of sentence;
(d) a substantive right of appeal on a point of law against acquittal;
(e) a substantive right of appeal on law, mixed law and fact, and fact alone, against
acquittal.

These categories are not of course all mutually exclusive and there are in some
jurisdictions combinations of the rights under (b) and (c), or under (c) and (d) or (e).
Moreover, appeals may be brought sometimes only with leave of the trial court or the
appeal court (or either), sometimes without the need to obtain leave, or sometimes under a combination of restricted and unrestricted rights depending on the nature of the appeal.

The basic common law situation under (a) needs no further elaboration but each of the
other categories merits further examination.

Page 50

4.24 He points out that an accused's right to appeal against his conviction/sentence or any adverse decision is an internationally accepted (human) right. Fairness dictates that the State should be afforded a similar right. The granting of this right to the State should primarily be rooted in (a) fairness and (b) the interests of society. In the present criminal justice system the odds are heavily stacked against the State. The increase of sophisticated criminals, the lack of experienced prosecutors and judicial officers are some of the elements which have affected the efficient administration of justice. Further, a current perception is that the rights of an accused are treated preferentially to those of society in general. This has resulted in the perception that the system protects criminals and neglects the victims. There can be little, if any, doubt that affording the State a right to appeal on facts would go a very long way to restore credibility and
respect in the justice system.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 78

5.27 For the reasons set out in paragraph 5.21 the Commission is unable to support the
proposition of Mr Mennun that the right of the state to appeal against sentences, bail or on questions of law cannot be used to support an extension of the state’s right to appeal to include questions of fact. The Commission concedes that the right to appeal on questions of fact should be limited to those cases where a miscarriage of justice occurred on the evidence before the court. The intention is not to give the state a second bite of the cherry. The state cannot rectify its own errors on appeal.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 105

17. Section 322 of the Principal Act is hereby amended by-

(a) allow the appeal [if it thinks that the judgment of the trial court should be set aside on the ground of a wrong decision of any question of law or that on any ground there was a failure of justice];

(b) the substitution for subsection (2) of the following subsection:

(2) Upon any [an] appeal [under section 316 or 316B] against any sentence, the court of appeal may confirm the sentence or may delete or amend the sentence and impose such punishment as ought to have been imposed at the trial.
 
Dr Stipp heard the second '3 loud bangs' just before his call to Security at 03:15:51. So I have the shots at 03:15 - -03:15:51 (less a few seconds to allow for dialling and getting through)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFZA03eu9NM @ 30:00 onwards

thank you, so:

he made one call to silverwoods security [no answer]
one call to 10111 [out of order?]

shots

second call to security [got through] - i assume then that this is the 3:15:51 call. not the first one.

you have dr stipp's phone records too?... knowing the time of the 10111 call [or the first call to security] would really pin down the shots time. or would there be no record of these calls?
 
Mr Fossil & Lithgow - agreed - what a coincidence....

In a similar vein, watching uncle Arnie give his highly inapt press conf in front of judges bench I also thought : bet he's been told to try and appear more humble, tone it down by his PR Burgess. That was the first time I have not seen the steely glint in the eye, fighting talk,smirks, hard stares from him and Madame Lois.

Bet they had been thinking ,-on the 12th 13th- that they were already onto the image rehab phase now the CH was in the bag. Hence the mis-timed book stories, PR statements etc.

After this backlash , they may need to think gain about their PR strategy.
 
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