Discussion between the verdict and sentencing

[pandax81]

"There's no such thing as a bad coincidence" - Lost Highway, a film by David Lynch.

• OP had an argument with Reeva about meals before - so she apologised in one of her whatsapps, saying she would cook healthy meals for him from now on, and she said she was scared of him sometimes and how he will react to her.
• OP's manager said in court that he wanted to take her to London not for reasons of "the special one", but to show her how strict his diet and regime was.
• Reeva cooked dinner that night, but ended up missing normal meal time and eating exceptionally late, with an argument on the estate heard in the early hours.

The meals aren't just food - they represent power, control, respect, superiority and dominance for OP. The psychologist report says his style of conflict resolution is to talk things through and if this doesn't work he removes himself from the situation. In other words, he gets into so many conflicts that he has developed his own style to deal with them. If he thinks the other person is wrong and is not listening to reason, or not talking properly and calmly, or won't stop, or causing a scene, then he sees them as wrong-doers and cannot control his reaction, so has to remove himself. What happens if he can't remove himself, because he is in his own home in the middle of the night, or if the other person stops him? He removes the other person.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Did anyone see this in Australia? I don't think it is a repeat.

http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/about/id/602012/n/Justice-for-Reeva

Thank you William, I found it a very revealing interview.

It says: "The selected item is currently not available."
I tried to get it with the add on "Hola" that one of the posters recently suggested.

Unfortunately, it might only be available in Australia. This is part of the transcript.

Barry and June Steenkamp believe the full story has yet to emerge about what happened on the night their daughter was shot dead by Oscar Pistorius, despite his trial ending with a verdict of culpable homicide.

“It’s not, for us, the right verdict… I don’t feel it was justice,” June Steenkamp says in an extended interview to be screened as an Australian exclusive on tonight’s Dateline at 9.30pm on SBS ONE.

“I feel that there’s still a missing link somewhere, I think there’s quite a bit more to the whole thing than has been produced so far,” Barry tells Rohit Kachroo.

He doesn’t fully believe Oscar Pistorius’ account that he thought there was an intruder in the bathroom before he shot four times through the closed door, killing his girlfriend.

“He could have gone to the balcony and shouted for help knowing that somebody was there, he could have pressed the alarm system, all this would have been prevented,” Barry says.

“I think there was more to the whole story coming up to the actual shooting, the killing… if he’s watching, he’ll know what I’m talking about.”

“They’ve missed something, what really happened, only Oscar knows what really happened,” June adds.

The couple say they were shocked when Pistorius was cleared of murder and instead found guilty of culpable homicide in a Pretoria courtroom earlier this month.

“We were shocked, shocked, disappointed. You know, your heart drops. You just want the truth and it’s going in the wrong direction, that’s how you feel,” June says.

“We’re both exhausted, because we never really have a minute without something else comes up… we haven’t really had time to grieve… it is a horrible, horrible thing that we’ve been through, and it’s still going on,” she says.

But despite everything, the couple still want to sit down and talk to Pistorius.

“We don’t know what we would talk about, but I’d like to just sit down with him and let us have a chat,” Barry tells Rohit.

“There’s no hate towards him and that… you actually feel a bit sorry for him. In seconds his whole life changed, and you don’t wish that on anybody, but things did happen, and things happened there that haven’t been brought up, I know that,” he says.

There is no mandatory sentencing for culpable homicide, so Pistorius’ punishment could range from a fine to more than a decade in jail. He’s due to return to court on 13th October.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/...eeva-steenkamps-parents-still-seeking-justice

I really admire their strength, they publicly are not admonishing OP, or criticizing J Masipa's judgement, they feel she may have had little to go on. But I hasten to add, that June said they have their private thoughts and they don't want to share them (we obviously can speculate what they both say in private). Imo, they still have to live in Pretoria, so they are being very wise.

Barry says "the two witnesses who say they heard screaming, I believe them and this is where the whole thing broke down. That is what she would do, we know our daughter. That is what she would have done." ( Barry looks quite intense while talking about the screams, imo, he is really holding his true feelings in.)

After the verdict, June says she couldn't even look at OP. She adds that OP's family are suffering and it was probably a relief for them, they have to believe in him, don't they? June asks.

Barry wants the truth, he says he knows Reeva, she would have run to the toilet, there was an argument and she would have screamed. He says the witnesses heard screaming and they are pushed aside, they were disregarded and they shouldn't have been disregarded. The reporter asks that OP knew Reeva was in the toilet, June and Barry, agree, yes he did.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

@ Homegirl - great post, when I read it I wonder why the state didn't give it their all. Maybe they relied too much on OP's story being so preposterous, he would receive a murder charge. I would love to have been a fly on the wall when the state counsel regrouped after hearing the verdict.

@ pandax, i agree with the analysis of OP's temperament and conflict resolution, yep, so much about control, and like Nel said to OP, he hears just, me, me, me.
Can you imagine the fury OP would have been in with Reeva shutting that door, he must have felt emasculated and Reeva had to be punished. jmo

 

[Lux et Veritas]

But hey, the good news is that OP nipped Reeva’s gum chewing in the bud - it could have totally ruined the Oscar brand.



/ bitter sarcasm off

 

[PrimeSuspect]

But hey, the good news is that OP nipped Reeva’s gum chewing in the bud - it could have totally ruined the Oscar brand.



/ bitter sarcasm off

OP is just so damn perfect.

 

[44ALLAN]

I'm surprised no one at the trial queried OP's 'fingers in the mouth' method of airway clearing / resuscitation

Especially when she was already dead....................beggars belief !!!

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Originally Posted by cottonweaver

Judge actually said :common cause
- Op was seen trying to resuscitate the deceased
- OP accused called for help
Seemed very odd to me that anyone could conclude that those events should be read at face value. Apparent vs intention!!
shouting " help" is not = calling for help in my book
Fingers down someone's mouth in front of witnesses, after an admitted crying over body delay is not= to someone trying to resus someone using a credible technique

Toss in that OP told Carice to stick HER fingers into the mouth of (DEAD) Reeva while he went hunting for tape and black plastic bags.

He not only manipulated Carice as part of his tragic theatrics to “save” Reeva, he used the dead woman herself as part of his carefully choreographed “remorse”.

Vile and monstrous.

This is exactly why he called Stander* FIRST. He could not have police and paramedics on the scene first (he knew she was already dead before he carried her downstairs) - he needed friendly allies to arrive first to witness his cold, calculated, heroic “life-or-death” drama played out for the record.

Isn’t it amazing that he was descending the stairs at exactly the same moment Stander and Carice opened the front door? Seriously, think about the logistics. Three minutes (or more?) passed from the time OP called Stander till they arrived. How long was OP standing on the landing with a bloody dead woman in his arms, waiting to make his tragic descent at just the right second? Macabre beyond words. Only a psychopath would be able to carry it off.

Indeed, OP’s plan worked like a charm.

Stander: “I saw the truth that morning. I saw it, and I feel it.”

We all know the real truth.

Till paramedics got there and declared her officially dead, OP was not safe; he could not take any chance that Reeva was not yet dead and could still name her murderer ... he had to help her “breathe”.

* Don’t forget - Stander was on OP’s Speed-Dial immediately after his 2009 Cassidy Taylor-Memmory incident, too.

 

[Scand]

Lux: What is this about Stander helping OP with the Taylor-Memmory situation? Where do you know that from? I am genuinely interested to know more about that "case". I also want to know when that case was settled (before or after he killed Reeva?).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[44ALLAN]

It's wide reaching, and I don't think it just applies to South Africa. I think we will see a new trend of people using the "Oscar Pistorius defence".

Karen i agree with your thoughts but please think 'outside' the box for a moment.

If you or i had perpetrated this crime in the UK and been arrested we would have been in jail from Day 1 .............without doubt.
If you or I had concocted such a story................"I put my face in my hands" etc etc..............I heard a noise/ I heard a window slam/ i heard wood moving/ changing testimony with the different witnesses statements whenever we felt like it.......................we would be found guilty of no doubt.

As much as I dislike saying it.............this trial is not in the UK.
OP has been given special privileges because of who he is and because of his families influences.
IT STINKS and the repercussions will be enormous IMO

 

[soozieqtips]

Lux: What is this about Stander helping OP with the Taylor-Memmory situation? Where do you know that from? I am genuinely interested to know more about that "case". I also want to know when that case was settled (before or after he killed Reeva?).

BIB - after he killed Reeva. I think it was settled just before the trial began.

 

[44ALLAN]

.. yet the judge believed all that nonsense .. she actually believes that OP believed an intruder had:

1) made the ridiculous decision to enter his house on the first floor with a noisy ladder, risking the window being locked when he got to the top of the ladder, instead of making his entry somewhere else on the ground floor or even via the open balcony doors which would've been their obvious point of entry if they really existed and if they really were going to use the ladders (and not only that but this intruder would've had to have scaled the outer wall of the housing complex without first being detected by security/cameras).

2) managed to use prop up the ladder against the wall without making any noise whatsoever

3) and then having climbed in through the window, gone straight into the toilet cubicle and locked themselves in .. in what weird world would anyone think that an intruder is going to do that? If it was an intruder, they would've gained entry and come straight in (and OP knows that) .. they would not have locked themselves in the bathroom, and the sound of a person doing that would NOT have indicated to someone that it was an intruder .. what it WOULD'VE indicated is that it was the person you were, just seconds before, sharing your bed with.



.. it never happened ..

All this has got me thinking it is 'fixed' from the outset it really must be fgs.

WHY.............did Nel not prove to the court that a Burglar could not possibly have entered the 'gated community' without setting an 'outer' wall alarm off !
How did they get in?
WHY..............did Nel not prove to the court that even if someone had breached the security outer wall then his/her/their very presence would have activated not only OP's 'outer' alarm system but everyone else's on the street!
WHY........did Nel not show the court the alarm 'outer' systems of every house in the vacinity .................my summation is that they were all switched OFF because they all had dogs..............including OP whose alarm was never on IMO.......................WHY did NEL not mention or address this?
WHY.............did Nel not hammer home to the court that OP slept with his balcony windows open...............and I mean HAMMER home to the court.
And if OP and the rest of the street didn't have them activated then they were not in fear of their security..................standers slept with open windows as did OP.
OP was comfortable with this it should have been massive in XE.
This is so basic and I cringe at the ineptitude of it all I really do.

Complete and utter farce the whole thing from start to finish.

 

[44ALLAN]

tbh i am beginning to think lots of things mean nothing in sa.
a woman's screams
one shot or four shots
black talon ammunition
holding unlicensed ammunition in your safe.
independent witness testimony
perjury
pleading innocent and then admitting guilt at the last minute...

And don't forget Mangena with the 4 bullets and the pause after the first shot which was corroborated by an ear witness................... and photo 55........................the crime scene that morning as taken by the official police photographer which totally contradicted OP's version of events.

Masipa and the 2 assessors dismissed all of this out of hand..................incredible.

Did she even mention the defence witnesses Dixon and Wolfie?
Nope.....................incredible and incredulous all at the same time.
They should be sacked/dis-barred and have their pensions taken off them and put to work at the local community centre they really should.

 

[sleuth-d-]

In the leaked video reenactment, there is a voice over of Oscar shouting and man screaming. This was quite possibly the evidence that they intended to introduce. There are many problems with this video recreation. It was obviously done before OP changed so many details during his testimony. It contradicted his story in many ways, and showed that things didn't happen in the way OP said they did. There are many details that are wrong, but there were two fatal flaws.

OP testified that , while he was firing, he backed up a few steps. I didn't understand what he meant by that until I saw the video. It depicted OP backing up in the entry, toward the passage as he was firing. He could probably have made the first shot (A) from his stated starting position, possibly the second one(B) with some contortions, but it would have been impossible for OP to hit the door at the angle of the trajectories for bullets C and D from the last two positions. Nel stated as much to Wollie. The video shows the trajectories going through the wall. I was very disappointed that the State did not show photos, or a graphic of the trajectories in court. The video shows the shots being fired from right to left ( D,C,B,A) Nel got Wollie to agree that they went from left to right. (A,B,C,D). This makes OP's stated firing positions even more impossible.

The magazine rack was depicted as being more or less where it was found, but was shown flat against the wall rather than at an angle. They had to slim it down and skew the toilet towards the door. Making it more obvious, they skewed the blood pool along with it. Even then, there was not enough space for Reeva to have been lying on the floor between the rack and toilet bowl. Her body mannequin is going through the magazine rack. I don't know how they thought that they could get away with that. The magazine rack couldn't have been where OP said it was either. The recreation shows just how small the toilet room is.

I think Roux didn't dare to show the video or to give Nel the chance to cross examine Roder. The video team could have fixed some things, the flaws remain. There went the voice test.

another thing that they would have had to fix - and it would have been virtually impossible - would have been to have reeva cause the wooden mag rack to move [at the back of the toilet]. then show op startled and instantly shooting bullet one. and have reeva hit in the hip close to the door by bullet one.

reeva did fall into the magazine rack, so it did make a sound, but it was after bullet one, not before.

 

[44ALLAN]

When in OP's story did he go and get the trash bags and rope (or whatever he was going to tie it with)? And who in the history of ever has run to grab 30 gallon trash bags to stop a person from bleeding? They aren't even in a location near her body for using on her wounds, they're laid out a ways away from her.

Better question is IMO.................

WHY................did Nel not ask all this.....................WHY ?

 

[cynic]

Six-time Paralympic champion David Weir has called for the International Paralympic Committee (IPC) to ban Oscar Pistorius from competing.
[SNIP]
In the immediate aftermath of the verdict from Judge Thokozile Masipa, Craig Spence, the IPC's director of media and communications, stated that the organisation will not prevent Pistorius from competing, if the athlete chose to do so once any potential sentence has been served.
[SNIP]
"The IPC should take a stand and rule him out of competing. The Paralympic Movement should not be about one person, and that's the danger here."
IPC president Philip Craven, meanwhile, moved to clarify the governing body's position.
"Is there a possibility that legally Oscar Pistorius could come back and compete at the Paralympic Games? Yes, of course, there is a legal possibility of that," he said.
"Whether it will happen or not, is highly hypothetical. We don't even know the sentence yet.

http://sports.opera.com/?sport=soccer&page=news&view=article&news_id=437843&localization_id=uk

 

[foxbluff]

I have this. It marks the number of the relevant houses, except Dr Stipps lived where I inserted a yellow dot. I don't have some of the neighbours' names in front of me but Oscar's House is marked, Mrs Van der Meer is opposite and to the left, the Burgess's are marked at the top (I think it is the big grey house or the one behind). Not sure who 191 is but if it was meant to be Stipps it is in the wrong place (hence the yellow dot). The neighbours either side of OP did testify but I don't have their names to hand. I thought I would post this quickly. I will find the neighbours' names and post them if someone doesn't come up with them before I do.

View attachment 59605

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=59605

BBM - I agree that the Stipps are located where you put the yellow circle (house w/the red roof), and I believe the #191 was meant to designate them.

#180 - Estelle and Jacques van der Merwe
#191 - Johan S. and Anette Stipp
#284 - * (I don't know who this designates.)
#285 - Bareng Kenneth and Ria Motshuane
#286 - (former home of Oscar and Frank)
#287 - Michael R. and Eontle H. Nhlengethwa

*I don't know who #284 designates, but am wondering if it happens to be OP's contractor friend, Christo M. Menelaou, who said his house overlooks OP's and that when a loud noise woke him up that morning he at first thought it was thunder?

@Jimmy this is the best I can do except to tell you that the Stander home is indicated on one of the maps on Juror13 site.

 

[G.bng]

OK, a question for those in the 'it was all a horrible accident' camp .. could you explain why Reeva was standing up, facing the toilet door when Pistorius shot her?

.. imo, she couldn't have just finished having a pee, and was just about to exit the door, because:

1) he would've heard the toilet flush
2) she would've wondered what all the shouting was about, and would've been in a more protected body position, probably to one corner of the toilet as well as taking more of a curled up position (i.e. that's an automatic thing, in order to protect 'ones' major organs) as opposed to standing up completely straight and facing the door directly
3) she would've put a call in to the police from behind the toilet door when OP had shouted at her to, either that or she would've called out and asked what was going on before phoning them .. it would've been one or the other, but she did neither.

There is only one reason, and one reason only, that she was stood bolt upright behind that toilet door and that is because they were both arguing. No other reason.

BIB.

But that was the prosecution's version, i.e., at the time OP fired the shots Reeva and OP were facing each in front of the toilet door arguing. However, it places the prosecution at serious odds with its own witnesses since neither Burger, Johnson or the Stipp's heard a male and female arguing just before or at the time of the shots but a woman's "petrified" and "terrified" screams rising in crescendo and/or gaining in intensity "as if in fear of her life".

So unless I'm missing something, afaics ear-witness and State versions are irreconcilable. For the State, an argument facing each other across the toilet door just before OP shoots her, while for its 4 star ear-witnesses we have Reeva, (presumably aware OP was about to shoot otherwise why would she scream "in fear of her life" or be "out of her mind with fear"), standing slap bang in front of the door (Mangena's testimony) screaming like a banshee predicting her own death just before and while OP shoots her without her taking even the most elementary self preservation measures, such as, using her telephone or opening the window to call for help or crouching down in the left corner where the wall could have afforded protection or in the right corner where the toilet could have served as a shield.

Sorry. but I can't buy either State or witnesses' versions since I consider Reeva was much more intelligent than either version would give her credit for.

 

[homegirl]

@ Homegirl - great post, when I read it I wonder why the state didn't give it their all. Maybe they relied too much on OP's story being so preposterous, he would receive a murder charge. I would love to have been a fly on the wall when the state counsel regrouped after hearing the verdict.

@ pandax, i agree with the analysis of OP's temperament and conflict resolution, yep, so much about control, and like Nel said to OP, he hears just, me, me, me.
Can you imagine the fury OP would have been in with Reeva shutting that door, he must have felt emasculated and Reeva had to be punished. jmo

BBM
Prime S, I would have liked to be a second fly right beside you. I kept telling myself that Nel was keeping his case focused and tight, and that surely the Judge would see how impossible and unreasonable OP's various versions were. He had a Prima Facia case according to many SA lawyers. He did a good job of discrediting OP, and in my assessment, that should have been enough. IMO, OP's testimony should have been rejected. He took apart most of the defense witnesses to the point of comedy. The judge could just as well have rejected OP's story and the defense arguments, then based her verdict on whatever parts of the State's case that she arbitrarily chose to believe. I do wish that Nel had questioned OP on the many things that have been discussed here.

We never know the whole story when the victim is dead, but in this case, I can't even guess, except in broad strokes, what really happened. I just know that OP killed Reeva and lied about almost everything.

 

[homegirl]

another thing that they would have had to fix - and it would have been virtually impossible - would have been to have reeva cause the wooden mag rack to move [at the back of the toilet]. then show op startled and instantly shooting bullet one. and have reeva hit in the hip close to the door by bullet one.

reeva did fall into the magazine rack, so it did make a sound, but it was after bullet one, not before.

So true! Reeva would have to have been standing on her right leg with her left leg extended nearly the width of the room to kick the magazine rack. He shot immediately, so she would have dropped to the floor, right there by the door, when she was shot in the hip. Then she would have to levitate backwards into the magazine rack to receive the bruises on her back. The magazine rack would have had to move into the corner after that, and Reeva would have had to levitate, again, to the left side of the toilet. Shots C and D would have had to occur while she was levitating in mid air. And she would have had to regain the use of her right arm, so that she could come to rest lying with on her right shoulder, with her arm stretched across the toilet. They kind of left that part out of the video. Wonder why, Jeez!

BIB- Exactly. She fell backwards into the magazine rack after the hip shot, letting OP know where to aim his next three shots. Of course, her screams helped him there too. I remember OP saying that he hit the door on the far right side so that he wouldn't hit Reeva when he bashed it in. It must have seemed like a considerate thing to say sat the time, but how did he know where she was? He said that he didn't hear a thing.

 

[Jake18]

Karen i agree with your thoughts but please think 'outside' the box for a moment.

If you or i had perpetrated this crime in the UK and been arrested we would have been in jail from Day 1 .............without doubt.
If you or I had concocted such a story................"I put my face in my hands" etc etc..............I heard a noise/ I heard a window slam/ i heard wood moving/ changing testimony with the different witnesses statements whenever we felt like it.......................we would be found guilty of no doubt.

As much as I dislike saying it.............this trial is not in the UK.
OP has been given special privileges because of who he is and because of his families influences.
IT STINKS and the repercussions will be enormous IMO

BIB It does. Something's happened. The ammunition charge verdict in particular reeks.
I am hopeful that the NPA working on this behind the scenes, I think they have to wait until after sentencing until they can appeal?

And I sincerely hope that those screams of Reeva's that OP has claimed ownership of haunt him every single night.