Discussion Thread #60 - 14.9.12 ~ the appeal~

[AJ_DS]

Just one thing, the level of water at the bottom of the bowl always stays the same except when there is siphonage in the going away pipe but that is minimal and self regulating, having said that, in extreme cases of siphonage odours can get through. If you pour a glass of water into the toilet then an equal amount will go down the pipe, allthough you may not be able to hear it.

That's precisely my point…

- Siphonage is triggered when water level rises sufficiently to flow over the S-bend into the sewage pipe

- Blood (and maybe also urine) raised the level in the bowl which activated the siphonage… a low volume weak siphonage, not the normal one with a traditional flush when the entire tank rapidly empties into the bowl

- Siphonage occurred which led to level in bowl to be lower than normal (with some audible gurgling sounds which do not occur during a normal flush)

- Bowl water level self-regulating mechanisms activated

- Fresh water slowly trickled from the tank to the bowl to raise level to normal by means of the small nozzles located under the toilet rim

- Fresh water trickling into the bowl partly rinsing the bowl surface leaving the telltale blood streaks

… this explains everything :

- The blood streaks which can only occur when self-regulating water level mechanisms trickles water into the bowl to compensate the low level post-siphonage

- The small wood splitter which did not flush

- The small bullet fragment which also did not flush

I suppose not all toilets work the same but I have tested this on my own toilet and it works just as I have described it…

The alternative is so improbable that it borders the impossible :

- OP flushed the toilet as per the proposed scenario by Judgejudi which is statistically improbable

- OP found a bullet fragment and a small wood splinter, planted them both in the bowl to camouflage the fact that he had flushed the toilet

 

[44ALLAN]

Here is a close-up of the toilet bowl. It is from the Eye Witness News article on "Behind the Door" under the Crime Scene tab. We finally got some high resolution photos, but they present only more questions for me. There are a couple of small wood fragments on the side of the bowl, just above the water line, on the left as you look at it standing in front. There appear to be some small particles in the bloody water, along with the larger wood fragment. It is hard to say what the particles are, maybe some wood, tile grout, residue from the bullet core, body tissue, or whatever.

This would seem to suggest that, if the toilet was flushed, it was done before the door was bashed in. I too have wondered about the streaks and the low water level, lack of blood and footprints etc. as others have mentioned.

http://ewn.co.za/Features/behindthedoor#panel3

View attachment 66830

Well it would have been so easy to prove................flushed or not?
Flushed = blood in the soil pipes outside.
Not flushed = no blood anywhere except in the bowl and the s-bend.
Simple IMO.
Also,if you look very carefully at your photograph it appears there is still water trickling down the toilet bowl in between the streaks of blood.
Looks to me like it's possible there is water running continuously down the toilet bowl from a faulty cistern ?
Is that an original crime scene photo of the toilet or taken days later?

 

[AJ_DS]

"Five minutes before he smashed the door down", there's not much blood for that amount of time considering what she had done to her ?

Indeed… but those 5 minutes is only on OP's (fabricated) version of events

I believe the toilet door was never locked… primarily because the key was never there in the first place…

Which means that immediately after the shooting :

- OP dropped the gun to the floor where it was found

- OP opened the toilet door and witnessed what he had done to Reeva

OP could never explain the damage to the toilet door caused by the kicking and the cricket bat… UNLESS he claimed that the door was locked from the inside…then he would have to break it down to save Reeva… and nobody could ever prove that the damage was done prior to the shooting

OP pried out the toilet door panel which was already severely damaged, cracked and even shot through… this camouflaged the telltale domestic violence signs

OP fetched the key in his bedroom or downstairs and placed in the keyhole… Voila !!

This would explain why Mike and his wife never heard the cricket bat strikes on the toilet door from a mere 9 meters away through an open window : they occurred before the shooting when they were sleeping and they were woken up by the gunshots.

It also explains why wall tiles and bathtub panel were damaged : the bashing and kicking had nothing to do with trying to break open a locked door… it was pure venting of frustration and furious anger which escalated into a shooting.

 

[Colin de France]

Well it would have been so easy to prove................flushed or not?
Flushed = blood in the soil pipes outside.
Not flushed = no blood anywhere except in the bowl and the s-bend.
Simple IMO.
Also,if you look very carefully at your photograph it appears there is still water trickling down the toilet bowl in between the streaks of blood.
Looks to me like it's possible there is water running continuously down the toilet bowl from a faulty cistern ?
Is that an original crime scene photo of the toilet or taken days later?

If the toilet hadn't been flushed there would still be blood in the down pipe.......due to the self regulating process.

 

[Colin de France]

Indeed… but those 5 minutes is only on OP's (fabricated) version of events

I believe the toilet door was never locked… primarily because the key was never there in the first place…

Which means that immediately after the shooting :

- OP dropped the gun to the floor where it was found

- OP opened the toilet door and witnessed what he had done to Reeva

OP could never explain the damage to the toilet door caused by the kicking and the cricket bat… UNLESS he claimed that the door was locked from the inside…then he would have to break it down to save Reeva… and nobody could ever prove that the damage was done prior to the shooting

OP pried out the toilet door panel which was already severely damaged, cracked and even shot through… this camouflaged the telltale domestic violence signs

OP fetched the key in his bedroom or downstairs and placed in the keyhole… Voila !!

This would explain why Mike and his wife never heard the cricket bat strikes on the toilet door from a mere 9 meters away through an open window : they occurred before the shooting when they were sleeping and they were woken up by the gunshots.

It also explains why wall tiles and bathtub panel were damaged : the bashing and kicking had nothing to do with trying to break open a locked door… it was pure venting of frustration and furious anger which escalated into a shooting.

Yep....the damage to the door could well have been done before shooting but then again why would he do that if the door wasn't locked ?

 

[AJ_DS]

Well it would have been so easy to prove................flushed or not?
Flushed = blood in the soil pipes outside.
Not flushed = no blood anywhere except in the bowl and the s-bend.
Simple IMO.
Also,if you look very carefully at your photograph it appears there is still water trickling down the toilet bowl in between the streaks of blood.
Looks to me like it's possible there is water running continuously down the toilet bowl from a faulty cistern ?
Is that an original crime scene photo of the toilet or taken days later?

INDEED… Allan… great catch !!

There are only 3 ways to produce the blood streaks :

1- JudgeJudi's scenario with a normal flush

2- Automatic siphonage without a normal flush but with self-regulating level mechanism trickling some water

3- Faulty cistern (worn out sealing gaskets) which trickle water into the bowl continuously

OPTION 1 is highly improbable and cannot explain the unflushed content of the bowl (bullet and splinter)

OPTION 2 and 3 can explain it all…

OPTION 3 is the simplest of explanations

I vote for option 3… especially considering OP's attitude towards home repair/improvement… he would not have cared or bothered with a leaking cistern...

 

[AJ_DS]

Yep....the damage to the door could well have been done before shooting but then again why would he do that if the door wasn't locked ?

Same reason some men punch a hole in the wall during an argument… to vent frustration… not to access something inside the wall

Reeva was screaming her head off at 3AM in his house, in his quiet neighborhood, surrounded by his neighbors… she would not shut up… if someone was to call security or Police it would be in the news the next morning : Police at Pistorius house for domestic violence incident !… not good for his career !!

The more Reeva was scared of OP, the more she screamed, the more OP got frustrated and angry with her, the more he became aggressive and violent, the more Reeva got scared, the more she screamed…

Vicious circle that escalated from a single (probably stupid) argument… but OP always wins !!

 

[Colin de France]

INDEED… Allan… great catch !!

There are only 3 ways to produce the blood streaks :

1- JudgeJudi's scenario with a normal flush

2- Automatic siphonage without a normal flush but with self-regulating level mechanism trickling some water

3- Faulty cistern (worn out sealing gaskets) which trickle water into the bowl continuously

OPTION 1 is highly improbable and cannot explain the unflushed content of the bowl (bullet and splinter)

OPTION 2 and 3 can explain it all…

OPTION 3 is the simplest of explanations

I vote for option 3… especially considering OP's attitude towards home repair/improvement… he would not have cared or bothered with a leaking cistern...

.....if the cistern had been knocked or if there was partial pressure on the button....etc etc.

 

[AJ_DS]

.....if the cistern had been knocked or if there was partial pressure on the button....

Knocked… possible even probable considering the violent nature of events that occurred in there

Partial pressure on the button… I don't see how or when

I still believe that old rubber gaskets which loose their flexibility and crack is the best explanation… I have personally changed that gasket in my toilet because noise of trickling water drove me mad

 

[homegirl]

Well it would have been so easy to prove................flushed or not?
Flushed = blood in the soil pipes outside.
Not flushed = no blood anywhere except in the bowl and the s-bend.
Simple IMO.
Also,if you look very carefully at your photograph it appears there is still water trickling down the toilet bowl in between the streaks of blood.
Looks to me like it's possible there is water running continuously down the toilet bowl from a faulty cistern ?
Is that an original crime scene photo of the toilet or taken days later?

I am assuming that the photo was one of the first series taken on Feb 14. The other photos shown under the Crime Scene tab show the scene as it was found, before anything was moved for further investigation.

Oh yes, if only the forensics had been more thorough. I do see some reflections in the bowl, but can't see if there is water trickling. I kind of doubt it because the left side of the bowl has small particles of wood which were not washed down, and blood flecks which don't appear to have streak marks through them.

I did an experiment a while ago using a blue gelatinous type toilet bowl cleaner. I applied a heavy coating beneath the rim,left it for several minutes and watched what happened. The cleaner adhered to the bowl in the spots where the trickling water leaves mineral deposits on the sides of the bowl, but not between them. The result was streaks, much like we see in these photos. Just one more thing to throw into the pot, so to speak.

 

[44ALLAN]

If the toilet hadn't been flushed there would still be blood in the down pipe.......due to the self regulating process.

Self regulating?
Can you explain because it may be different in other countries.
Here in the UK the water in the toilet bowl and s-bend goes nowhere until someone flushes or adds water to the bowl.............simple as that.
It's the old physics lesson................water finds it's own level and all that.
So..............if you add water to the bowl it will force the same amount of water out the s-bend until they level out..............gravity etc.
If I put red dye in my toilet it will stay there forever until I flush the toilet.

I will gladly be proved wrong though with this 'self regulating' phenomenon......................I'm all ears

 

[Colin de France]

Self regulating?
Can you explain because it may be different in other countries.
Here in the UK the water in the toilet bowl and s-bend goes nowhere until someone flushes or adds water to the bowl.............simple as that.
It's the old physics lesson................water finds it's own level and all that.
So..............if you add water to the bowl it will force the same amount of water out the s-bend until they level out..............gravity etc.
If I put red dye in my toilet it will stay there forever until I flush the toilet.

I will gladly be proved wrong though with this 'self regulating' phenomenon......................I'm all ears

I think you've explained it very well, just change the dye for blood, if the bowl keeps filling up with blood it will be forced out the S-bend without the flush being activated !

 

[44ALLAN]

I am assuming that the photo was one of the first series taken on Feb 14. The other photos shown under the Crime Scene tab show the scene as it was found, before anything was moved for further investigation.

Oh yes, if only the forensics had been more thorough. I do see some reflections in the bowl, but can't see if there is water trickling. I kind of doubt it because the left side of the bowl has small particles of wood which were not washed down, and blood flecks which don't appear to have streak marks through them.

I did an experiment a while ago using a blue gelatinous type toilet bowl cleaner. I applied a heavy coating beneath the rim,left it for several minutes and watched what happened. The cleaner adhered to the bowl in the spots where the trickling water leaves mineral deposits on the sides of the bowl, but not between them. The result was streaks, much like we see in these photos. Just one more thing to throw into the pot, so to speak.

BiB.

Hi homegirl,
Check the photo again and you'll notice that above most 'clean white' bits of the bowl there is a white'ish mark from ,I presume the camera flash !.
The main give away to me though is at the very back of the bowl just under the rim.
You can see a clear constant run of water approx 3/4mm wide.
Broken seals in cistern.............dodgy flush mechanism or both IMO.

Also the small holes around the bowl rim can get blocked with scale which might explain why some sides were 'cleaner' than others after a 'flush' of the toilet or after the constant trickle of water into the bowl due to faults elsewhere as explained
AIMHO lol from a humble electrical engineer

 

[AJ_DS]

Self regulating?
Can you explain because it may be different in other countries.
Here in the UK the water in the toilet bowl and s-bend goes nowhere until someone flushes or adds water to the bowl.............simple as that.
It's the old physics lesson................water finds it's own level and all that.
So..............if you add water to the bowl it will force the same amount of water out the s-bend until they level out..............gravity etc.
If I put red dye in my toilet it will stay there forever until I flush the toilet.

I will gladly be proved wrong though with this 'self regulating' phenomenon......................I'm all ears

Some toilets are equipped with a widget which allows water to flow from the tank to the bowl so as to make sure the water level in the bowl is always right… this widget can be adjusted to increase or decrease the water level in the bowl.

That being said, you are quite correct : if you add a few drops of red dye in the bowl, the red water will stay there indefinitely BUT :

1- If you scoop out a glass a red water and decrease the bowl's water level, ...

OR

2. If you add a glass of water and increase the water level sufficiently for the siphonage to occur, the water level post-siphonage will be lower than normal, …

… THEN the widget will let water flow slowly from the tank to the bowl and readjust the water level

BiB… correct ONLY if the normal water level is as high as the top of the S-bend AND siphonage does not activate

 

[sleuth-d-]

Still curious about the bad news Oscar received at that meeting on February 13 and wanted to provide a copy of the 'What's App' messages back and forth between Reeva and Oscar from that date.

This excerpt in bold italics below is from: www.juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/04/07/oscar-trial-day17-oscar/

We are now up to the text messages for FEBRUARY 13

Reeva had spent the night before.

10:08am RS to OP – Good luck today baba let me know how things go
OP to RS – Thanks angel

(Oscar had a meeting in Johannesburg that day with a financial advisor)

RS to OP – Baba I hope you don’t mind but I came back to the house to work a bit and do some washing. It will help me a lot to get stuff done and relieve some stress. I’ll go through to Joburg at like 3pm.

RS to OP – It’s a difficult thing to try to console you baba because it’s a ****** thing and you’re a nice guy. I guess these things happen and we can just hope they work out for the best. You are an amazing person with so many blessings and you are more than cared for. Your health and future monetary blessings far outweigh this hurdle I can promise u that.

(Oscar says this message had to do with the financial meeting he had that morning)

OP to RS – Thank you my angel, you don’t have to my angel. Stay tonight if you’d like.

(Oscar says this means he was telling her she didn’t need to go to Johannesburg, she could stay at his place)

OP to RS – I’m just finishing off at Ryan

(this was another meeting that he had that day)

RS to OP – Thank you baba. Let me know if you’d like to spend time with M or Carl. I’m sure you maybe feel like some family tonight.

RS to OP – Angel I’m going to go home at like 6pm. Please stay and do what it is you were going to do.

Estelle reports in her post above that this very well could have involved unpaid taxes on some other real estate Oscar owned. This makes sense given he was about to buy the new house in Johannesburg and would need to clean up any outstanding real estate taxes-- particularly if the other property might have been used as collateral.

I guess having to pay a penalty on past due taxes can be considered a "****** thing" but you have to wonder if this would rise to the level of Reeva thinking he might need additional consolation from other family members. Seems like a lot of coddling coming from Reeva just over an unpaid tax bill and fine-- but then again, this is Oscar, and he is without doubt high maintenance emotionally.

People have also speculated that the "hurdle" Reeva mentioned could be related to the assault charges and claim for damages filed by Cassidy Taylor-Memmory (a four-year long legal battle that was ultimately settled out of court sometime in February of 2014 right before his trial began in March 2014.)

Many have wondered what could be the motive for shooting Reeva, and I suspect if Oscar was already having difficulty controlling his anger and disappointment at the outcome of this meeting, then it would not take much to set him off in an uncontrolled rage.

Like so many women in his life, Taylor-Memmory looks an awful lot like Reeva (in type, at least). Not hard to imagine how someone like Oscar could possibly transfer his anger at Cassidy Taylor-Memmory to any perceived slight from Reeva that night. I find it so significant too that he was engaged in an unusually long phone conversation with his ongoing ex, Jenna aka 'Babyshoes' Edkins, when he arrived home that evening. Sounds like he had a long standing habit of turning to her when things got difficult for him.

This was no normal evening of yoga and hot tea for Reeva and Oscar.

re: the cassidy taylor-memmory case.

this was due in court on feb 20th 2013. highly likely that op was having meetings with his lawyers regarding this in the week leading up to reeva's killing, maybe even on the 13th - the so-called '****** thing'.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/03/oscar-pistorius-facing-yet-another-court-case/

 

[sleuth-d-]

Same reason some men punch a hole in the wall during an argument… to vent frustration… not to access something inside the wall

Reeva was screaming her head off at 3AM in his house, in his quiet neighborhood, surrounded by his neighbors… she would not shut up… if someone was to call security or Police it would be in the news the next morning : Police at Pistorius house for domestic violence incident !… not good for his career !!

The more Reeva was scared of OP, the more she screamed, the more OP got frustrated and angry with her, the more he became aggressive and violent, the more Reeva got scared, the more she screamed…

Vicious circle that escalated from a single (probably stupid) argument… but OP always wins !!

bbm
and not good if you have a court case in the next week concerning assault at the very same house.

 

[homegirl]

BiB.

Hi homegirl,
Check the photo again and you'll notice that above most 'clean white' bits of the bowl there is a white'ish mark from ,I presume the camera flash !.
The main give away to me though is at the very back of the bowl just under the rim.
You can see a clear constant run of water approx 3/4mm wide.
Broken seals in cistern.............dodgy flush mechanism or both IMO.

Also the small holes around the bowl rim can get blocked with scale which might explain why some sides were 'cleaner' than others after a 'flush' of the toilet or after the constant trickle of water into the bowl due to faults elsewhere as explained
AIMHO lol from a humble electrical engineer

BIB
Hi Allan see what you mean there. It looks like there is a rather deep rut worn into the porcelain.

 

[44ALLAN]

I think you've explained it very well, just change the dye for blood, if the bowl keeps filling up with blood it will be forced out the S-bend without the flush being activated !

I totally agree if your on about a few pints of blood !
I somehow doubt Reeva 'poured' several pints of blood into the toilet bowl though !

As explained earlier.................water finds it's own level so.....................
The level of the water in the toilet bowl is exactly the same as the level of the water in the s-bend when at rest.
Filling the bowl up gently will make the water leave the s-bend 'gently', so to speak, when it reaches the upper rim of the s-bend.
Throwing a bucket of water in full hog could cause,by gravity and force,to dispel more water from the s-bend thus leaving less water in the pipe and bowl when it all settles again......lower level of water.
I hope that's clear without patronising lol.

My point is.....................blood from Reevas body would, nigh on, impossibly raise the level of the water in the toilet to allow it to be above the s-bend level which would then allow blood to enter the soil pipe by reaching the pipes outer rim................it would take several pints IMO or the equivalent of a normal 'full flush'.

I look forward to the resident plumber putting me to rights

edit AJ-DS has just thrown a widget into the works......................neva heard of one but old dogs and new tricks etc

 

[44ALLAN]

Some toilets are equipped with a widget which allows water to flow from the tank to the bowl so as to make sure the water level in the bowl is always right… this widget can be adjusted to increase or decrease the water level in the bowl.

That being said, you are quite correct : if you add a few drops of red dye in the bowl, the red water will stay there indefinitely BUT :

1- If you scoop out a glass a red water and decrease the bowl's water level, ...

OR

2. If you add a glass of water and increase the water level sufficiently for the siphonage to occur, the water level post-siphonage will be lower than normal, …

… THEN the widget will let water flow slowly from the tank to the bowl and readjust the water level

BiB… correct ONLY if the normal water level is as high as the top of the S-bend AND siphonage does not activate

BiB....................which could explain why there are apparent 'flush' streaks in the blood and why I can see constant water streams down the toilet bowl interior.
It may be that this widget fella ( if there is one in OP's toilet) is to blame.

Good debate whichever it is

 

[Fuskier]

Still curious about the bad news Oscar received at that meeting on February 13 and wanted to provide a copy of the 'What's App' messages back and forth between Reeva and Oscar from that date.

This excerpt in bold italics below is from: www.juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/04/07/oscar-trial-day17-oscar/

We are now up to the text messages for FEBRUARY 13

Reeva had spent the night before.

10:08am RS to OP – Good luck today baba let me know how things go
OP to RS – Thanks angel

(Oscar had a meeting in Johannesburg that day with a financial advisor)

RS to OP – Baba I hope you don’t mind but I came back to the house to work a bit and do some washing. It will help me a lot to get stuff done and relieve some stress. I’ll go through to Joburg at like 3pm.

RS to OP – It’s a difficult thing to try to console you baba because it’s a ****** thing and you’re a nice guy. I guess these things happen and we can just hope they work out for the best. You are an amazing person with so many blessings and you are more than cared for. Your health and future monetary blessings far outweigh this hurdle I can promise u that.

(Oscar says this message had to do with the financial meeting he had that morning)

OP to RS – Thank you my angel, you don’t have to my angel. Stay tonight if you’d like.

(Oscar says this means he was telling her she didn’t need to go to Johannesburg, she could stay at his place)

OP to RS – I’m just finishing off at Ryan

(this was another meeting that he had that day)

RS to OP – Thank you baba. Let me know if you’d like to spend time with M or Carl. I’m sure you maybe feel like some family tonight.

RS to OP – Angel I’m going to go home at like 6pm. Please stay and do what it is you were going to do.

Estelle reports in her post above that this very well could have involved unpaid taxes on some other real estate Oscar owned. This makes sense given he was about to buy the new house in Johannesburg and would need to clean up any outstanding real estate taxes-- particularly if the other property might have been used as collateral.

I guess having to pay a penalty on past due taxes can be considered a "****** thing" but you have to wonder if this would rise to the level of Reeva thinking he might need additional consolation from other family members. Seems like a lot of coddling coming from Reeva just over an unpaid tax bill and fine-- but then again, this is Oscar, and he is without doubt high maintenance emotionally.

People have also speculated that the "hurdle" Reeva mentioned could be related to the assault charges and claim for damages filed by Cassidy Taylor-Memmory (a four-year long legal battle that was ultimately settled out of court sometime in February of 2014 right before his trial began in March 2014.)

Many have wondered what could be the motive for shooting Reeva, and I suspect if Oscar was already having difficulty controlling his anger and disappointment at the outcome of this meeting, then it would not take much to set him off in an uncontrolled rage.

Like so many women in his life, Taylor-Memmory looks an awful lot like Reeva (in type, at least). Not hard to imagine how someone like Oscar could possibly transfer his anger at Cassidy Taylor-Memmory to any perceived slight from Reeva that night. I find it so significant too that he was engaged in an unusually long phone conversation with his ongoing ex, Jenna aka 'Babyshoes' Edkins, when he arrived home that evening. Sounds like he had a long standing habit of turning to her when things got difficult for him.

This was no normal evening of yoga and hot tea for Reeva and Oscar.

BIB Marfa Lights, I had not seen this post, until now. Have thanked you for it. Good post IMO. We seem to consider similar opinions.