DNA links Denver burglary, child assault

Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Who, pray tell, is this country's "leading DNA expert" and who considers him to be such?

This case is very much about DNA--the male DNA from under JonBenét's nails and mixed with blood drops in her panties--male DNA that has yet to be identified to it's owner.
 
In all of the actual as well as fictional cases, dna under a rape victim's fingernails is highly probative evidence. If the victim is an adult female the defendant can always allege some consentual conduct and say that she scratched his back, not his face; however, the evidence itself is still relevant and highly valuable.

With a victim who is six years old, once the dna is identified, its all over for him.
 
Toth oh oh oh! how I agree.

Unidentified male DNA under a 6-year-old murder/sexual assault victim's fingernails and in her panties, yet some people want to just dismiss it as unrelated to her murder/sexual assault.

Makes no sense to me!
 
Even if the DNA in the Ramsey case belonged to an actual non-Ramsey person and was connected to the crime, we can't dismiss all of the other evidence.

What that means, and what third-party DNA would mean if it existed, is that the Ramseys were involved in something with a third party that got JonBenet killed.

Why do Ramsey apologists assume third-party DNA wipes out all the other evidence? Why do they assume IF there were a stun gun, that it wasn't used on JB by a RAMSEY? These red herrings, even if they were real, don't equal Ramsey innocence.
 
There is no evidence the Ramseys ever had a stun gun in their possession.

The other evidence in the case--pubic hair on the blanket, cord & black duct tape not originating with the Ramseys, lack of history or pathology to implicate the Ramseys, the ability for an intruder to enter the house without forcing entry, the handwriting on the ransom note, etc--point toward someone other than a Ramsey as the killer.

Combined to male DNA that does not match a Ramsey, it's a strong case for an intruder.
 
More about "weak sample" in another case:


Only 10 of 13 alleles are still present, said Dr. Russell Gettig, a forensic expert at the New York State Police crime lab. Alleles are sets of genes that occupy a particular position on a chromosome; humans have 46 chromosomes.


An expert witness for the defense testified that such incomplete genetic material should not be allowed as evidence.

But Gettig disagreed, saying that he believes the chance of someone else being a match for the two samples in evidence are less than one in 100 million.


complete article at:
http://www.oneidadispatch.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11189796&BRD=1709&PAG=461&dept_id=68844&rfi=6
 
LovelyPigeon said:
This case is very much about DNA--the male DNA from under JonBenét's nails and mixed with blood drops in her panties--male DNA that has yet to be identified to it's owner.
You still love to twist the facts, don't you LP! I think every once in a while you have a memory lapse and forget your not back posting on the swamp, where propaganda reigns over the truth at all costs...LOL

I know you you have done enough research on the DNA process that you know darn well that any DNA samples would be "mixed" not only during the sample collection process, but also during the amplication process.

So your statement that the DNA was "mixed with blood drops IN her panties" is nowhere near truthful. At which point in the DNA process the "mixing" took place is totally meaningless and has no bearing either way on this case.
 
When it comes to RST-spun evidence, there is no difference whatsoever between an invited "intruder" and an uninvited "intruder."

An invited perp could've made off with any leftover evidence as easily as Patsy could've hidden it in her purse.

Since there is no stun gun, the fact that the Ramseys allegedly never owned one is irrelevant. (But if there were, it could've belonged to the invited-intruder. Ditto the "DNA.")

Also irrelevant is alleged lack of known pathology. OTOH, many jurors would consider the prior chronic sexual abuse to be a "pathology."

All the jurors would need to connect the handwriting to Patsy is to view the exemplars themselves. Experts would be superfluous.

Patsy's fibers, John's (alleged) fibers, the pineapple, the handwriting, the prior abuse, the lies, and common sense are not compatible with a stranger-intruder theory. If there was an intruder, he was invited.
 
There is no evidence the Ramseys ever had a stun gun in their possession.
There is no evidence that proves a stun gun was even used in this crime. The same evidence which a few misguided people point to as proving a stun gun was involved, also proves a meat-fork was involved. All we need is a different delusion old man with meat-forks on the brain, and a different publicity seeking coroner, and we now have the "Meat Fork Theory" as being proven fact!

The other evidence in the case--pubic hair on the blanket, cord & black duct tape not originating with the Ramseys,
More evidence which proves nothing. The Ramseys themselves told LE that dozens of people had been in their bedrooms, providing unlimited sources for the hair (which you knowingly spun into being "pubic" when you know it wasn't.)
The cord and tape was sold at the Ramseys favorite hardware store, with Ramsey receipts found that contained the same sale amounts as those items. That provides a direct link between the Ramseys and those items.

Lack of history or pathology to implicate the Ramseys.
Dozens of cases exist where people with no prior pathology committed murders. That arguement is null and void. In fact, the Ramsey behaviour AFTER the crime is enough to convince the average person that these people are not normal by any defination of the word.

The ability for an intruder to enter the house without forcing entry.
The Ramseys had, by most estimates, around 6 hours to stage the crime scene. Unlocking a few doors and windows wouldn't have been very much of an effort for them. In fact, providing an entry point for their soon-to-be intruder would have been the easiest thing they did that night.

The handwriting on the ransom note, etc--point toward someone other than a Ramsey as the killer.
Completely wrong. The handwriting proves Patsy wrote the note. Anyone can see that for themselves just by viewing the PDF file in my signiture. The chances that any stranger would have so many exemplars that match the mother in a house he broke into to murder a child are impossible. A person would have a greater chance of being hit by lightening in 12 consecutive thunderstorms then that ever happening.

Combined to male DNA that does not match a Ramsey
DNA which not only didn't match a Ramsey, it will never match ANYONE. The DNA in this case not only doesn't have an identifiable source, it might not even exist and just may be an illusion created by the testing process.


As you can see LP, when you take a REAL look at the facts in this case, the intruder theory amounts to nothing but fantasy and a few creative pipe dreams.
 
Great post, Shylock.

There is NO compelling (aka real, unspun, tangible) evidence of an intruder.

And what the RST attempts to spin into an intruder can just as easily be used as evidence that the Ramseys invited some perv over, let him play with their daughter and he killed her.

After all, these are parents who dressed up their baby like a hooker, taught her sexually suggestive behavior and paraded her for the whole perverted world to drool over. Maybe they went further than that... or maybe JohnBoy himself went further than that... "no pathology" my a$$.

In a trial the medical experts will show the jury the proof of the pathology behind JB's death.
 
The DNA is sufficient to include in CODIS databank. The male DNA came from the spots of blood in JonBenét's panties but the spots of blood are JonBenét's. The male DNA is mixed with those blood spots.

As we learn everyday, DNA is being matched to suspects in cases that are months, years, even decades old. Many times those suspects did not have their DNA in a state or federal data base until very recently. We also learn that 10 markers is sufficient to take to trial against a suspect.

There is a forensic pathologist with experience in stun gun injuries who believes the pairs of marks made on JonBenét were made by a stun gun.

The BPD attempted to match the human hairs, the beaver hair, the fibers, the cord, the duct tape, etc to items in the Ramsey home and could not. They remain unmatched.

There are no cases where parents with no previous history or pathology killed their biological children. There is no case where a parent used a garotte to kill their biological child.

There was no need for a "forced entry" into the Ramsey home because there were unlocked windows and at least one broken window in the basement. There may have been unlocked doors, too.

The material used to write the note was in the house, in plain view, and accessible to anyone who came into the house. The Ramseys were gone from their house for hours that evening and therefore there was plenty of time for the killer to use the pen and pad and write the note.

None of the Ramseys handwriting has been demonstrated to "match" the note.
 
Children's beauty and modeling pageants are not "pathology" or history for parents to sexually assault or murder their children.

You should note that there is an enormous lack of pageant participants or their parents involved in the sexual assaults and murders.
 
LovelyPigeon said:
Children's beauty and modeling pageants are not "pathology" or history for parents to sexually assault or murder their children.
I never said they were.

It's my opinion that what the Ramseys did went way beyond the normal child beauty/modeling and did indeed suggest a pathology.

JB's own dance teacher was appalled at the moves "someone" taught JB.

And those mother-daughter get-ups, and inappropriate sexualization of a child (see the photos for proof), make it obvious that Patsy was living vicariously through JonBenet. Again, pathology. IMO.

And, oh yeah, there's that medical evidence of sexual abuse. If that's not "pathology," what is? (Rhetorical.) I don't understand why the RST works so hard to ignore this. JB's body told the truth about what happened to her. Why doesn't the RST listen to her? Why do they buy the bullspin of proven and documented liars over what the victim herself is saying?
 
The DNA is sufficient to include in CODIS databank.
And what does that really mean? Does it mean the DNA is viable?--NOT AT ALL. Could DNA that is nothing but a mish-mash of contamination be entered into the CODIS database?--ABSOLUTELY!
All CODIS requires is that the profile submitted contains 10 markers. If all 10 markers came from one single person, or if one marker came from 10 different people, it makes no difference to CODIS.

The male DNA is mixed with those blood spots.
See Post# 67 for why this statement is nothing but myth.

There is a forensic pathologist with experience in stun gun injuries who believes the pairs of marks made on JonBenét were made by a stun gun.
The forensic pathologist you refer to is a publicity hound who is on record as saying the use of a stun gun can never be determined by photographs. Now he's changed his tune because that's where the real publicity is. It's too late, he's already impeached himself and lost all credibility on the issue. Doberson now resides on the same scrap heap as Donald Foster.
Besides, give me a couple weeks and I'll find a forensic pathologist with experience as a chef who believes a meat fork made the pair of marks on JonBenet. Someone can always be found to say anything you want.

The BPD attempted to match the human hairs, the beaver hair, the fibers, the cord, the duct tape, etc to items in the Ramsey home and could not. They remain unmatched.
"Unmatched" does not mean "un-owned" by the Ramseys. This is a typical argument from a negative which is the basis for all Ramsey supporters ideas. There is an island where skeletons exist from the Dodo bird. Those skeletons can't be "matched" to any known bird flying around today. According to the Ramsey supporters logic, this proves that the Dodo bird never existed.

There are no cases where parents with no previous history or pathology killed their biological children.
Remember the case of the British nanny Louise Woodward who was found guilty of shaking the baby to death? She had NO pathology. Pathology is irrelevant to rage and therefore meaningless to this case or any case like it.

None of the Ramseys handwriting has been demonstrated to "match" the note.
Check out the PDF file below for a demonstration that properly presented would convince any jury that Patsy wrote the ransom note.
 
Thousands of children participate in pageants and model year after year after year. JonBenét's participation based on her age was far less than many of those. She belonged to a family where the girls had been in pageants and enjoyed their participation immensely. JonBenét wanted to be in pageants too, and so she was.
 
Failure to match the duct tape to anything in the home together with the fact that the duct tape is known to have been recently manufactured is suggestive of an intruder. Absolute proof? No. But highly suggestive. You talk about 'pathology' and killing their daughter, but did they plan to buy the tape in advance? Where is the tape? Smart enough to ditch a roll of duct tape but too stupid to ditch the corpse?

Oh, and Louise Woodward was innocent and should not even have been charged.
Its just that is what happens when you have four burly cops grilling a terrified au pair and none of those cops ever grills the two doctor-parents about how on earth two totally separate electronic beepers could have simultaneously failed and each of the two doctors could have gone all day long without having noticed it.
 
LovelyPigeon said:
JonBenét's participation based on her age was far less than many of those. She belonged to a family where the girls had been in pageants and enjoyed their participation immensely. JonBenét wanted to be in pageants too, and so she was.
Yeah, I know.... just a few Sunday afternoons blah blah blah... and yeah, I'm sure it was all JonBenet's idea... uh huh.

She was a living doll, literally, for Patsy's amusement.

More important, ANY child - pageant participant or not - with physical evidence of sexual abuse is being subjected to someone's pathology.

Oh, and Toth - the duct tape came from JB's American Girl Molly doll. So did the unID'd fibers. IMO.
 
The male DNA under JonBenét's nails and male DNA mixed with the blood drops in her panties (the ones she was wearing when found sexually assaulted and murdered) has been submitted to the FBI CODIS databank for comparison to DNA profiles kept on file. And profiles that are added continously (or at least as continuously as personnel and funding provides for).

How do you go about demonstrating for us that the FBI database admits "mish-mashes of contamination"? If you have some confirmation of that from the FBI, please share.

It's not myth that the male DNA from the panties is mixed with the spots of JonBenét's blood. The bloodspots were tested for DNA and in addition to JonBenét's DNA was found male DNA that does not match any Ramsey.

Dr Doberson is not a publicity hound by any standard. He was consulted for his expertise by the BPD and also by Lou Smit. He says his experiments with a Taser stun gun, as well as previous experience with stun gun injuries on a murder victim, have convinced him that JonBenét has marks on her body from a stun gun.

If you think you can find a forensic pathologist who thinks a meat fork made the marks, go for it. Maybe you can even find one who's seen the autopsy photos of the marks and has seen marks left by stun guns on victims who died shortly thereafter.

Dr Doberson has certainly not impeached himself on the subject of stun gun injuries.

The BPD searched the house (and the cars and the yard for 7 days and found nothing to match the human hairs, the beaver hair, the fibers, the cord, the duct tape, etc on JonBenét's body. They tried hard to connect the Ramseys to any of those items and could not.

Louise Woodward is not mother to the child she was convicted of killing. She has no connection to the Ramsey case.

Amateur attempts to "match" the handwriting on the note are just that: amateur. Experts for the BPD and for the Ramseys who have seen the original note and had opportunity to compare it with handwriting samples have not been able to match a Ramsey's handwriting to the note. John Ramsey was a definite no match and Patsy Ramsey had only minimal similar comparisons.

Like it or not, the BPD investigation of the Ramseys that took place over several years resulted in convincing the most experienced detective on the case that the Ramseys were not involved with the death of their daughter. John Douglas, a renowned FBI agent who invented profiling, agrees. The current DA has stated publically that she agrees with a federal judge who wrote a looong formal assessment of evidence in the case, concluding the evidence in the case points to an intruder.

I believe the male DNA will eventually result in a "hit" on a databank, resulting in an investigation and arrest of the "match" to that DNA.
 
Britt, why on earth do you think that the piece of duct tape (which had just been manufactored in a very short and exclusive "run" at the factory a month before) was on a doll before it was put on JonBenét?

And where do you think the rest of that roll of tape was/is?
 
As I've said before, I discovered the doll theory on another forum (Purgatory). The theorizer there has previously posted photos of the doll showing the duct tape, and pointed out that the Ramseys bought a new doll after JB's death (replacing evidence). I think that's in PMPT, but not sure. Sorry to be vague, but I'm sure interested theorizers can pursue it. I've discussed it already on another thread (or maybe this thread... I don't know... lol).

There IS no rest of the roll. The tape on the doll is one piece that looks just like the piece found on JB. And the tan fibers may match the doll's body fibers, and the dark fibers may match the doll's clothes. Unfortunately, no one will ever know because Pam took the dolls during her raid and the cops never pursued it (as far as we know).

Also, Dr. Henry Lee said the tape was USED (i.e. not fresh off the roll). Source posted previously.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
84
Guests online
1,624
Total visitors
1,708

Forum statistics

Threads
606,719
Messages
18,209,417
Members
233,943
Latest member
FindIreneFlemingWAState
Back
Top