Do you think a Stungun was used?

[webweaved]

BBM: The fact that PR was complaining about people saying JBR visited the doctor more than twice a year is, quite frankly, ridiculous. JBR visited the pediatrician more than 25 times between March 1993 and November 1996. More than twice a year? More than eight times a year would be way more accurate. Harshly underestimating the times her daughter went to the doctor has not helped her case at all, has it?

If a child was being seen that much for vaginitis or anything aggravating the vaginal area THAT MUCH, eventually a competent dr would order test to get a better look in there to see whats going on...wouldn't they? If the child was THAT annoyed down there...wouldnt a real dr investigate further? A pap smear, a look..something! Especially with all of the female issues PR had in her history. Children can and do get examined. They just twilight sedate them. I wonder if the dr ever asked P to do this. If he didnt, something is odd about him. That dr was odd anyway IMO...super overprotective in a hinky meter way. Total Opinion.

I dont know how to view this in regards to JB being possibly molested. So either P had no idea and wasn't worried about any kind of discovery by a physician or she was creating reasonable doubt up front to cover for someone...like "oh she had infections all the time and i took her to the dr, we are good parents" something along those lines of thinking...just in case JB reported it to a school nurse of something...JMO. If she was douching her, that would have aggravated that young childs insides so bad. That's cruel. I hope that wasn't happening either. It always bothered me that not only was JB bed wetting and having toilet issues but so was BR. The feces found in multiple places in the house constantly. In a candy box? What is that about?! On the walls...left in pants in random rooms. It reminds me of those kids in war torn countries where they are raped so much that sorry to be graphic but....their feces just can't stay in...esp the boys..it just falls out. It hurts them to go potty. Angelina Jolie did a documentary on what happened to children that were raped. Darfur was the country I believe..don't quote me on that...somewhere in Sudan for those that want to look it up. I hope nothing like that was happening to these sweet children. Its just everything she said kinda reminds me of these kids behavior. BR at 9 almost 10 should have been well in control of bowel movements and toilet trained. JMO.

 

[Annapurna]

JB's pediatrician was a family friend of the R's, went to church with them and was present the evening of the 26th administering sedatives to PR. He sent LE away from the Fernie's house saying she was too out of it to answer questions.

I don't know that he necessarily ignored evidence of molestation so much as he was more willing to believe whatever PR said due to his relationship with the R's. I mean, people on this forum who have seen all the evidence and don't know the R's still don't believe that she was previously molested or that the parents were capable. Not surprising that a family friend would deny this as well.

FYI, she could not have been electrocuted by the rail-road track. It would only be electrified if the circuit was complete. Otherwise it would be a dangerous toy and not one I see any parent allowing to be laying around the basement.

Thats a good point about the R's not being security/self defense oriented. They never set the burglar alarm they had. I cannot believe they would have had a stun gun for any other reason. Young children do not need to have the threat of electrocution to behave, nor do adults need that to punish.

 

[Madeleine74]

She wasn't electrocuted nor were those burn marks or stun gun marks. Lou Smit had it wrong and this is detailed (along with pictures) in a book I read: "Foreign Faction-Who really kidnapped Jonbenet?" by A. James Kolar. Kolar took over the case at some point and he goes through the evidence and refutes claims that Smit made, one by one, showing photographs.

The marks perfectly match the end segment of one of the train tracks. It wasn't an intruder who killed JB, it was done by someone in that nuclear family.

 

[THE BUNK]

She wasn't electrocuted nor were those burn marks or stun gun marks. Lou Smit had it wrong and this is detailed (along with pictures) in a book I read: "Foreign Faction-Who really kidnapped Jonbenet?" by A. James Kolar. Kolar took over the case at some point and he goes through the evidence and refutes claims that Smit made, one by one, showing photographs.

The marks perfectly match the end segment of one of the train tracks. It wasn't an intruder who killed JB, it was done by someone in that nuclear family.

Besides. Why do you need to tie her up and bludgeon her if you have a stun gun? One or two zaps and she's out. Just carry her body to your car drive home and do what you will with her.


Not to mention he can do more damage in that he can incapacitate John from his bed. That would leave him the opportunity to kill Patsy, tie up John and then murder their children in front of them.

Such lack of ambition from a supposed cold blooded intruder.

 

[Madeleine74]

Tying her up and all that happened after the hit on the head and was, IMO and the opinion of LE including the FBI, all staging. She wasn't tied up tightly -- her hands were fairly loosely bound and the rope length was pretty long (over 12 inches).

Probably started as something unintended, an act of sudden rage (hit on the head), and then cover-up mode began to make that look like something else entirely. The sexual assault, the tying up, the garrote... all part of the staging to try and make it look like some crazed killer/intruder did this, certainly no one in the family whatsoever. Problem was it was over-the-top, along with the "War and Peace" of ransom notes.

 

[BBB167893]

First, I have absolutely no opinion as to whether or not a stun gun was used. None. maybe yes, maybe no. unconvinced either way. Skeptical. Anyway…

I can’t help but want to comment on this: to introduce the stun-gun theory overcomplicates everything.

If the evidence suggests or is indicative of stun gun use, then that’s the evidence. stun gun use only overcomplicates some theories. RDI theories. But, if the evidence says stun gun use, then that’s the evidence. To reject it would mean reasoning by theory (belief) instead of by evidence.

Ah, but that's just it, Anti-K. The evidence did not suggest stun gun use; quite the opposite. Smit came up with it anyway.

 

[BBB167893]

As rebut to Kane quote:
P. 271 (Nook version) of PMPT Meyer wouldn’t commit himself to a definite answer.
P. 332 (Nook version) of PMPT After reviewing the photos and this new information Meyer concluded that the injuries on JonBenet's face and back were, in fact, consistent with those produced by a stun gun.

Except that Kane said this is 2003, after the GJ. Moreover, Tom Wickman addressed the issue in 2006, and he said the same thing.

It's dead and buried, Anti-K. I'm content to leave it lie.

 

[SunnieRN]

I can't imagine the pain of losing your child. It is something I hope I never have to experience. I do however wonder about the statement John made when he refused to have Jon Benetton exhumed.

Christians believe that upon death, you are not in your body, but with the heavenly father. The shell of the person is what is left to be buried or cremated.

There were so many errors from the time Jon Benet was found, all the way through the autopsy. As a parent, I know if my child were to have been murdered in my home, with my immediate family present, I would want any and everything done to find out who could possibly have committed the crime.

Anything!!!

 

[andreww]

I can't imagine the pain of losing your child. It is something I hope I never have to experience. I do however wonder about the statement John made when he refused to have Jon Benetton exhumed.

Christians believe that upon death, you are not in your body, but with the heavenly father. The shell of the person is what is left to be buried or cremated.

There were so many errors from the time Jon Benet was found, all the way through the autopsy. As a parent, I know if my child were to have been murdered in my home, with my immediate family present, I would want any and everything done to find out who could possibly have committed the crime.

Anything!!!

That's just it, the Ramsey's didn't want answers. They were very content with unanswered questions thank you very much.


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[THE BUNK]

Christians believe that upon death, you are not in your body, but with the heavenly father. The shell of the person is what is left to be buried or cremated.

Someone with a very high Christian belief system would have a problem with Jon Benet's body being lost. The idea of not having a "proper burial" would be something a very religious Christian would point out.

 

[andreww]

Someone with a very high Christian belief system would have a problem with Jon Benet's body being lost. The idea of not having a "proper burial" would be something a very religious Christian would point out.

I'm not sure the Ramseys were even that religious to tell you the truth. I'd heard something at one point that the whole church thing was more an exercise in climbing the Colorado social ladder. They joined the church to meet people for business and country club access.

 

[Ellie9]

I'm not sure the Ramseys were even that religious to tell you the truth. I'd heard something at one point that the whole church thing was more an exercise in climbing the Colorado social ladder. They joined the church to meet people for business and country club access.

I also think later they played up their Christianity in order to appear more innocent, and to win the favour of a mostly Christian public (in the US).

I'm not sure what they were before, but I can see sickening signs of them really playing 'the christian card' or whatever you'd call it. They sound very fake when they start doing this.

 

[Annapurna]

PR was a little nuts with the religion in word anyway. She is said to have become more religious after her brush with cancer. I think she was part of the so-called "charismatic" christian movement, related to Pentecostal . Charismatics tend to accept a range of supernatural experiences (such as prophecy, miracles, healing, "physical manifestations of an altered state of consciousness" or speaking in tongues) as evidence of having been baptized or filled with the Holy Spirit (wiki). Did they go to an Episcopalian or a baptist church in CO? I think it was the former. IDK what that would mean though.

So whether or not she truly believed as much as she said, she did act like it. There was that bit about Lazarus when JB's body was found. She was clutching a gold cross the whole morning. She's heard saying "Help me, Jesus!" in a way that sounds, to me, more like prayerful words than just exclamation (i.e. not just like saying "oh my god", but in a more reverent way.

 

[AndHence]

An intruder with a stungun (since only an intruder would need to use one) implies preparation. We know that if an intruder did this he/she/they weren't very prepared. They wrote the note in the house using materials from the house instead of just typing a note. They didn't have a proper plan for absconding with the body. They spent an inordinate amount of time in the house after committing the crime(s). They used materials in the house to fashion a garrote. JonBenet was also heard to scream, so it seems unlikely that she was incapacitated by a stungun. The lack of preparation the intruder displayed makes it unlikely they brought a stungun, not to mention the fact that Kolar's book has all but shown that Smit's theory was sloppy, hasty, and incorrect.

 

[webweaved]

PR was a little nuts with the religion in word anyway. She is said to have become more religious after her brush with cancer. I think she was part of the so-called "charismatic" christian movement, related to Pentecostal . Charismatics tend to accept a range of supernatural experiences (such as prophecy, miracles, healing, "physical manifestations of an altered state of consciousness" or speaking in tongues) as evidence of having been baptized or filled with the Holy Spirit (wiki). Did they go to an Episcopalian or a baptist church in CO? I think it was the former. IDK what that would mean though.

So whether or not she truly believed as much as she said, she did act like it. There was that bit about Lazarus when JB's body was found. She was clutching a gold cross the whole morning. She's heard saying "Help me, Jesus!" in a way that sounds, to me, more like prayerful words than just exclamation (i.e. not just like saying "oh my god", but in a more reverent way.

Flashy even with religion...and no matter what happened in that house, to HER all is forgiven because she is SAVED BY THE CROSS. Jesus died on the cross to save her from her sins (Whatever her sins might have been..we dont know the extent of what each person did--if anything) This makes it all better! The R/N should have been signed HIDE BEHIND THE CHURCH H.B.T.C LOL - JMO.

 

[Juniorsleuther]

Hey everyone I am new here!! Posting that is but have been a behind the scenes reader for many years! So needless to say I am excited to post! Anyways I recently just become interested in jonbenet again this whole thing makes my heart hurt! Anyways I don't think a stun gun was used IMO I think those train tracks were used quite possibly while she laid in unconcious while PR staged the whole scene. What lead PR to stab jonbenet with train track peices is beyond me! More effect ? Less blood ? Easier to do? Who knows! But in all honestly I have not been convinced of a stun gun in all my reading on this case! IMO highly unlikely !

 

[andreww]

Hey everyone I am new here!! Posting that is but have been a behind the scenes reader for many years! So needless to say I am excited to post! Anyways I recently just become interested in jonbenet again this whole thing makes my heart hurt! Anyways I don't think a stun gun was used IMO I think those train tracks were used quite possibly while she laid in unconcious while PR staged the whole scene. What lead PR to stab jonbenet with train track peices is beyond me! More effect ? Less blood ? Easier to do? Who knows! But in all honestly I have not been convinced of a stun gun in all my reading on this case! IMO highly unlikely !

I feel that the tracks would have been used before she was unconscious. I feel there was a gradual escalation of violence that ended with the head blow.


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[Juniorsleuther]

Good call !! Someone in that home ( I believe Patsy) was a mean mean sick person ! Escalation is definite

 

[BoldBear]

Those two spots on her back have been driving me crazy. I've been looking at plug adapters, children's bicycle pedals and the possibility that the marks are individual items that somehow made a pattern. I keep going back to the train tracks.

I've been working on a theory for months. I've done some googling tonight and wham! There it is. I think I know what caused those two bruises on her back. I was so excited that I didn't think this one through. Once I did think about it, I realized that this item belongs in the room I've been writing about. Bonus.

Sorry not to share more of this. I've been looking at this case from a completely different angle. I'm putting it into a theory and then I'll share the whole thing. Unfortunately, what I have is rather long but it should be a good read.

 

[CorallaroC]

Good morning BoldBear, I look forward to hearing your theory and ideas about what caused the marks on her back! Sounds like you've been doing a lot of good brainstorming!