do you think maddie is alive or dead

[Gem2626]

Please link that allegation.

:waitasec:

My mistake I read it on the McCannfiles website. I don't know why they have to link every single media article there is.

If you google "training, unexpected death, uk" you will find a million different sources, but every health care professional in the uk from bum wipers up is taught some version of the following. this - admittedly the one I've copied is about a deceased child, but it's the same guidelines for suspicious death which all doctors MUST have. They are trained to preserve the scene.

This is simply not true. Having worked in residential homes, hospitals and the community and during 3 years of social work training I was not taught anything about crime scene contamination. After training It depends on what area you go. As a cardiologist, working in a hospital it is unlikely Gerry was ever coming across crime scenes, nor would Matthew Oldfield who who specialised in hormone related disorders nor David Payne who was a surgeon specialising in strokes. Don't know about Kate but i'm seeing my GP Friday so i'll have this conversation with him.

Doctors are trained on suspicious death in relation to the area they are specialising in and in relation to the body


As health care professionals are concerned with well being, this training should have kicked in for at least one of them for a disappeared one.

Why would a cardiologist, hormone specialist and a surgeon need training on crime scene prevention? They were hospital based. They would not be entering a crime scene.

Also Madeleine was missing not dead. Had she of been in the apartment dead then things would probably have been different.


Even if the McCann had been stressed beyond rational thought, their friends were doctors and other "professionals" so what's their excuse?

If one of my friends kids was missing I have no doubt i'd be hugely upset to the point of being unable to think rationally. Unless we've been in that situation we can't really judge.

ullhair:

5.5 The first professional on the scene should note the position of the child, the clothing worn and the circumstances of how the child was found. Those remaining at the scene should be asked not to disturb or move items around where the child was found until he/she has been seen by the police. This can be extremely important in helping the family to understand why their child has died.



<modsnip>

:cow:

Despite what you think the counter evidence we are providing is exactly what would be brought up in court.

The responsibility to seal a crime scene is not placed on the McCanns it is placed on the police.

 

[brit1981]

Gem,
I agree doctors are not trained in crime scene contamination etc as a matter of routine. Police doctors will have training, but not ordinary doctors.

When my friends child went missing and the police were called, we had already been all over her room, looking. It was the police who sealed it off. The child was found safe and well.

I also do not get why people are being told they are wrong if they point out the gaping big hole sin the mccanns did it theory. It is not much of a case if it relies on people taking falsehoods (such as 15 out of 19 alleles being dound is a kin to a 15 out of 19 chance it was hers) as fact and not being able to point out the mistakes.

 

[Donjeta]

I take it none of the Tapas 9 and the resort staff ever watches any television either. You only have to see a couple of episodes of CSI to know not to touch things that the police is going to want to take fingerprints from.

Gerry and Kate may have been in shock but one'd have thought that some of the others could have kept their head on their shoulders.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Despite what you think the counter evidence we are providing is exactly what would be brought up in court.

The responsibility to seal a crime scene is not placed on the McCanns it is placed on the police.

I'm sorry but I haven't read one word of "counter evidence"? Just counter opinion and counter attacks.

:waitasec:

The responsiblity to seal the scene of an unexplained death falls on a Professional Person in attendance. Every health care worker is educated on this repsonsibility. We didn't just have the McCanns, we had the Tapas 7, several of who were also doctors/medically trained.

There is actually no excuse, really. It's not like they were Joe Bloggs who drove a truck for a living and has never even heard of unexplained death procedures. But here they are being excused.

ullhair:

Apparently the McCann had no responsibility in the care and safety of their children either.

I don't know why they are exempt for the normal standards of behaviour for intelligent, responsible (trained) human beings, but apparently they are?

:dunno:

:cow:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Despite what you think the counter evidence we are providing is exactly what would be brought up in court.

The responsibility to seal a crime scene is not placed on the McCanns it is placed on the police.

Gem2626
Registered User Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by SapphireSteel
Please link that allegation.
My mistake I read it on the McCannfiles website. I don't know why they have to link every single media article there is.

It's amazing what you find out if you fact check.

:cow:

 

[fabgod]

Whats with the "counter evidence WE are providing"?

quote gem2626

Despite what you think the counter evidence we are providing is exactly what would be brought up in court.

Are you working together with others on Websleuths?
Are we all in gangs now?

 

[SapphireSteel]

Whats with the "counter evidence WE are providing"?

quote gem2626


Are you working together with others on Websleuths?
Are we all in gangs now?

Good catch.

Have we been invaded by trolls?

:what:

 

[Gem2626]

I'm sorry but I haven't read one word of "counter evidence"? Just counter opinion and counter attacks.

:waitasec:

The responsiblity to seal the scene of an unexplained death falls on a Professional Person in attendance. Every health care worker is educated on this repsonsibility. We didn't just have the McCanns, we had the Tapas 7, several of who were also doctors/medically trained.

There is actually no excuse, really. It's not like they were Joe Bloggs who drove a truck for a living and has never even heard of unexplained death procedures. But here they are being excused.

ullhair:

Apparently the McCann had no responsibility in the care and safety of their children either.

I don't know why they are exempt for the normal standards of behaviour for intelligent, responsible (trained) human beings, but apparently they are?

:dunno:

:cow:

Again, Health care workers are not trained on crime scene contamination. In an earlier post you claimed that people that were carrying out personal care would be trained on this. People doing this don't need any training whatsoever except manual handling training in case they have someone in a wheelchair etc. You can keep claiming that health care workers are but they are not. Nurses are not. Paramedics probably, emergency on call doctors probably as additional training but to state that this is something a cardiologst, hormone specialist and a surgeon would be trained on is simply not true. They are hospital based there is no need for such training.

Yes evidence. Statements etc in the files that are linked by us (as in me and the other people that are on the same page) to prove claims such as the Smith family saying it was Gerry and the calpol claims which are not true.


Again lets completely ignore that the police who DID have training n crime scene contamination didn't do their jobs properly.

 

[Gem2626]

Whats with the "counter evidence WE are providing"?

quote gem2626


Are you working together with others on Websleuths?
Are we all in gangs now?

I'm talking about others who are on the same page as myself in regards to this whole case. It is evident that there are people who believe that the McCanns disposed of Madeleine and those that believe it was abductor. No ones in 'gangs' but their are different sides to this.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I'm talking about others who are on the same page as myself in regards to this whole case. It is evident that there are people who believe that the McCanns disposed of Madeleine and those that believe it was abductor. No ones in 'gangs' but their are different sides to this.

Please post evidence of an abductor.

tia.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Again, Health care workers are not trained on crime scene contamination.

This is getting repetitive.

From the website of the General Medical Council of the UK

They are trained how to deal with "unexplained death" as part of being a doctor. They will have to face it in their careers and their education covers their responsibilities including cooperation with other authorities. It isn't just one class or specialty, it is touched on again and again in their training.

This is the protocol outlined by the GMC in case of unexpected/suspicious deaths, referring in this case to a child death -

Ability to communicate clearly and authoritatively in stressfull situations and to develop clear and sensible demarcation of responsibility within the multidisciplinary team involved in suspicious death investigation...understand issues related to dual forensic and pediatric investigations of suspicious deaths.
http://www.gmc-uk.org/Curriculum_Histopathology_7_Jun_07_v.Curr_0069.pdf_30556485.pdf

All doctors in the UK receive this training as they all have to work in emergency departments as part of their training, therefore are all somewhat likely to come across a dead child (SIDS) or an unexpected death. This protocol is common knowledge and is spread widely across the "multidisciplinary agencies" which include firemen, paramedics, ambulance staff, emergency staff, GPs who are likely to be the first on the scene at an unexplained death at home.

All are expected to take basic steps to preserve the scene and call law enforcement, then remain at the scene until it arrives to instruct further.

In an earlier post you claimed that people that were carrying out personal care would be trained on this. People doing this don't need any training whatsoever except manual handling training in case they have someone in a wheelchair etc. You can keep claiming that health care workers are but they are not. Nurses are not. Paramedics probably, emergency on call doctors probably

Probably?

:banghead:

This could be why you are always having to apologise for your posts, because you don't fact check, and continue to declare opinion as fact!

:waitasec:

as additional training but to state that this is something a cardiologst, hormone specialist and a surgeon would be trained on is simply not true. They are hospital based there is no need for such training.

You do know that medical training is tiered, right? All nurses and paramedics learn up to level 3, GP's and their ilk up to levels 4 and 5, Specialists levels 6 and beyond...but they all do exactly the same sort of basic training at the beginning? It's not like one lot gets taught how to set a inject a needle into a screaming child and the other lot only learns how to take it's temperature?

Yes evidence. Statements etc in the files that are linked by us (as in me and the other people that are on the same page) to prove claims such as the Smith family saying it was Gerry and the calpol claims which are not true.

You know that is an outright untruth. The Smith family positively identified Gerry and Brian Healy confirmed the Calpol. This has been thrashed out and linked a thousand times.ullhair:

Again lets completely ignore that the police who DID have training n crime scene contamination didn't do their jobs properly.

Please link to that claim.

TIA

 

[Clutchbag]

all this talk about sealing off a crime scene, there was nothing to seal off once the mccanns and co trashed it, yawn

what business did the mccanns have with tampering with evidence gem626? Why did they put their paws all over the shutters? The point of alledged entry? Of alledged scarlet pimpernel abductor?And all this before police got there, what the hell did they think they were doing? Should have been out looking instead but no, lets see if it was possible that the shutters were raised from the outside, er, why? what difference would it make in any way shape or form if the alledged pimpernel entered from outside or inside, answers on a postcard pls

 

[SapphireSteel]

I'm not convinced the "crime scene" was that screwed up anyway.

They did forensics, and the only fingerprints found were on the window shutter, and they were Kates and the GNR officers. The most recent people to touch them.

Considering the place had recently been cleaned, it's not surprising there weren't any other identifiable fingerprints really, is it?

 

[Gem2626]

I'm not convinced the "crime scene" was that screwed up anyway.

They did forensics, and the only fingerprints found were on the window shutter, and they were Kates and the GNR officers. The most recent people to touch them.

Considering the place had recently been cleaned, it's not surprising there weren't any other identifiable fingerprints really, is it?

Link please?

 

[Gem2626]

This is getting repetitive.

From the website of the General Medical Council of the UK

They are trained how to deal with "unexplained death" as part of being a doctor. They will have to face it in their careers and their education covers their responsibilities including cooperation with other authorities. It isn't just one class or specialty, it is touched on again and again in their training.

This is the protocol outlined by the GMC in case of unexpected/suspicious deaths, referring in this case to a child death -

Ability to communicate clearly and authoritatively in stressfull situations and to develop clear and sensible demarcation of responsibility within the multidisciplinary team involved in suspicious death investigation...understand issues related to dual forensic and pediatric investigations of suspicious deaths.
http://www.gmc-uk.org/Curriculum_Histopathology_7_Jun_07_v.Curr_0069.pdf_30556485.pdf

All doctors in the UK receive this training as they all have to work in emergency departments as part of their training, therefore are all somewhat likely to come across a dead child (SIDS) or an unexpected death. This protocol is common knowledge and is spread widely across the "multidisciplinary agencies" which include firemen, paramedics, ambulance staff, emergency staff, GPs who are likely to be the first on the scene at an unexplained death at home.

All are expected to take basic steps to preserve the scene and call law enforcement, then remain at the scene until it arrives to instruct further.



Probably?

:banghead:

This could be why you are always having to apologise for your posts, because you don't fact check, and continue to declare opinion as fact!

:waitasec:



You do know that medical training is tiered, right? All nurses and paramedics learn up to level 3, GP's and their ilk up to levels 4 and 5, Specialists levels 6 and beyond...but they all do exactly the same sort of basic training at the beginning? It's not like one lot gets taught how to set a inject a needle into a screaming child and the other lot only learns how to take it's temperature?



You know that is an outright untruth. The Smith family positively identified Gerry and Brian Healy confirmed the Calpol. This has been thrashed out and linked a thousand times.ullhair:



Please link to that claim.

TIA

What a mess.

Why are you linking information to specialised pathology and then saying that all doctors etc will receive this training? What? The quote you provided comes from forensic pathology which is a sub-specialty of the pathology training. Do you have any idea how long is takes to become a forensic pathologist? Years. These are the people who are going to be involved in visiting a crime scene not a basic trained doctor.

All med students receive pathology training in relation to the body. Some may undertake clinical training in pathology depending on the placements they get. Please provide evidence that doctors receive training in relation to crime scene contamination in the case of a missing child.

Also, please provide a link that says all doctors have to work in and accident and emergency department as part of their training. I have looked to see if this is true and can find nothing to back it up. It is stated on UK university med school websites as 'you may' get an accident and emergency
placement as part of clinical training.

Of course doctors are trained in multi-agency work. It is part of the law in relation to children (children act 2004) As far as all the agencies involved receiving this pathology training you have linked to that's just not true.

Also, GP's are not likely to be first on the scene at an unexplained death at the home. Who calls their GP? Errr 999!

Yes probably as in IMO probably.

I'm well aware that medical training is tiered. Basic training consists of first aid etc not contamination of a crime scene. Paramedics who IMO probably would receive some training in this as they are entering homes all the time. Certainly not health care staff who 'wipe bums' as you claimed in an earlier posts.

Yet again the smith family did not positively ID Gerry. Why do you keep claiming this?

And I can't even remember what the calpol argument was but I do know that i've rebutted that using primary sources before.

 

[Gem2626]

all this talk about sealing off a crime scene, there was nothing to seal off once the mccanns and co trashed it, yawn

what business did the mccanns have with tampering with evidence gem626? Why did they put their paws all over the shutters? The point of alledged entry? Of alledged scarlet pimpernel abductor?And all this before police got there, what the hell did they think they were doing? Should have been out looking instead but no, lets see if it was possible that the shutters were raised from the outside, er, why? what difference would it make in any way shape or form if the alledged pimpernel entered from outside or inside, answers on a postcard pls

Panic, shock, not thinking straight, trying to make sense of what happened and how Madeleine was taken. It is not their responsibility to seal a crime scene. That is down to the police no matter how many people have been in it the crime scene should still be sealed.

 

[gord]

If I had arrived back at the flat and found my child missing I wouldnt suddenly think - this is a crime scene and adopt some sort of CSI /police manual on crime scene

I would be tearing the place looking - checking - which seemed exactly what was happening - there was understandable panic and confusion .

Thats why police are trained to do what they do - they take control when parents are in shock and unable to think clearly

 

[Gem2626]

If I had arrived back at the flat and found my child missing I wouldnt suddenly think - this is a crime scene and adopt some sort of CSI /police manual on crime scene

I would be tearing the place looking - checking - which seemed exactly what was happening - there was understandable panic and confusion .

Thats why police are trained to do what they do - they take control when parents are in shock and unable to think clearly

Exactly!

For the same reason surgeons are not allowed to operate on relatives.

 

[Donjeta]

Looking is one thing. Putting your own fingerprints in the window where you think the abductor broke in is just stupid.

 

[gord]

Looking is one thing. Putting your own fingerprints in the window where you think the abductor broke in is just stupid.

hindsight always gives you 20 20 vision

sure it would have been better had they just seakled everything from the moment they realised this was serious - but again stress panic , all do things to peopel and the fact that Gerry was a cardioligist means diddly squat imo - he was a human being and a father first