Does Skyline school bear any responsibility?

[AvalonBlue]

Respectfully snipped and BBM

Clever perps can always find ways to avoid the cameras or avoid being recognizable in them but I'm all for making it as hard for them as possible. The call system for absences would be nice too but my children's school doesn't have it either.

If it was Terri I'm not sure that the school having stricter sign out procedures would mean that Kyron would be accounted for today. If she was really determined to let him go missing she would have figured out some other plan. If it was a random stranger who just wandered in to stare at kids and nobody asked anything then the school has a security problem for sure.

Yes, I, too, believe if it was TH, that she would have figured out another plan eventually. If involved, even though she clearly is not the CSI wanna' be she might have thought she was -- she sure did do some fairly snazzy thinking (read: "stinkin' thinking") in certain ways.

I know I've posted previously some of what I'm about to list below, so I know it's a list that's definitely not all inclusive -- however...

*It was a busy, out of the ordinary morning, a Friday, and even though there was still another week or so of school before the summer recess, the scent of summer freedom was in the air, along with the benign "laxity" that can occur right before that summer freedom reigns.

*The fact that it was a Friday -- and almost the end of the school year -- meant extra time to pad any "responsibilities" or "expectations" regarding picking up projects, homework assignments, etc.

*The timing just seemed SO PERFECT in so many ways -- and had the advantage of totally blaming the school, bringing possible big $$$. (KH could be dealt with later; big deal that the alleged MFH plot did not go as hoped. After thinking more through about the MFH, it perhaps became clear that offing KH would not bring as many $$$ -- and as much immediate freedom as disappearing Ky and then handling KH.)

*There was the confusion (planned, IMO) about the exact date of the MD appointment and knowledge about Ky's teacher having some hearing loss which would make available blatant blaming after the fact, that perhaps "the teacher just didn't get the information right." (I feel so bad for this teacher and really angry that her hearing loss, IMO, was used to set her up.)

*TH had planned to have the truck (regardless of how much she did or didn't use the truck on any regular basis.) Having the truck allowed many more options as to where she could travel and what that could make possible. Also, interviews with KH have him saying that TH used the truck on 6/3, Thursday, to take the science project to the school. That access to the truck could have (once again, MOO) given her time for a "trial run" to iron out
tricky details and to stash tools/other equipment in advance.

*The fact that there was a weekend visit planned for Ky to go to DY's could have been an extra "turn of the sword" in terms of heightened anticipation about the weekend and the summer plans for fun being cruelly transformed in seconds -- literally.

*Baby K was conveniently teething -- and possibly having other issues that could hypothetically "cover" what has come to be known as "the long ride."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm getting really sleepy and am going to stop my list for now because it's almost 4 a.m.!

I'll be glad to post more of my speculation/hypothesis after some dreamtime and some coffee.

So, just to summarize for now -- I totally believe (MOO) that "where there's a will there's a way" -- and that *IF* involved in Ky's disappearance, TH would have found another time and another way.

I still believe (my speculation only) that TH's plan involved blaming the school and suing for a huge chunk of money and that never in her wildest dreams did she fathom that she would have to come up with a detailed and really believable alibi.

As many others have posted, people who plan and commit heinous crimes think they're so brilliant that they will not be caught -- AND -- they pretty much also inevitably screw something/or many things up.

There is also the matter of temporary "dumb luck." Most of the time, MOO, the clock on that "dumb luck" is ticking and does run out.

And, I hear that clock tick, tick, ticking...

 

[debs]

Respectfully snipped and BBM




Yes, I, too, believe if it was TH, that she would have figured out another plan eventually. If involved, even though she clearly is not the CSI wanna' be she might have thought she was -- she sure did do some fairly snazzy thinking (read: "stinkin' thinking") in certain ways.

I am a fan of CSI, love reading and posting here at WS, and have a fascination for unsolved mysteries. None of these things would put me into a category of CSI wannabe, and I believe we don't know anything about Terri's level of enjoyment of the show, other than she's a fan. Watching baseball doesn't make one a baseball player. Yanno?

I know I've posted previously some of what I'm about to list below, so I know it's a list that's definitely not all inclusive -- however...

*It was a busy, out of the ordinary morning, a Friday, and even though there was still another week or so of school before the summer recess, the scent of summer freedom was in the air, along with the benign "laxity" that can occur right before that summer freedom reigns.

*The fact that it was a Friday -- and almost the end of the school year -- meant extra time to pad any "responsibilities" or "expectations" regarding picking up projects, homework assignments, etc.

*The timing just seemed SO PERFECT in so many ways -- and had the advantage of totally blaming the school, bringing possible big $$$. (KH could be dealt with later; big deal that the alleged MFH plot did not go as hoped. After thinking more through about the MFH, it perhaps became clear that offing KH would not bring as many $$$ -- and as much immediate freedom as disappearing Ky and then handling KH.)

Terri would never have been able to collect on any monies made from the school. Kaine and Desiree as parents with joint custody, would. It is speculation on the MFH, or there would have been an arrest immediately.

*There was the confusion (planned, IMO) about the exact date of the MD appointment and knowledge about Ky's teacher having some hearing loss which would make available blatant blaming after the fact, that perhaps "the teacher just didn't get the information right." (I feel so bad for this teacher and really angry that her hearing loss, IMO, was used to set her up.)

I thought her hearing issue was a rumor which had been debunked. But with regard to confusion over an appointment, has it been proven impossible that in order to exonerate herself from any culpability, the teacher could have padded her lack of attention to a child not being in her care, she threw out there that she thought Terri had taken him to a Dr's appt, and that the reason no one else seems to know about it is because the teacher made it up on the spot to cover her ...self.

*TH had planned to have the truck (regardless of how much she did or didn't use the truck on any regular basis.) Having the truck allowed many more options as to where she could travel and what that could make possible. Also, interviews with KH have him saying that TH used the truck on 6/3, Thursday, to take the science project to the school. That access to the truck could have (once again, MOO) given her time for a "trial run" to iron out tricky details and to stash tools/other equipment in advance.

We have only heard Kaine state she planned to have the truck and it's o so suspicious why does she need the truck. I can easily see where he'd say "Hey, I'm gonna take the car today." We don't know it and must take on faith what Kaine says. I mean no disrespect to him, of course, but I simply can't do that in the case of a missing child. I don't see how the school could be responsible for this, however.

*The fact that there was a weekend visit planned for Ky to go to DY's could have been an extra "turn of the sword" in terms of heightened anticipation about the weekend and the summer plans for fun being cruelly transformed in seconds -- literally.

I don't know that the school could be held responsible for this.

*Baby K was conveniently teething -- and possibly having other issues that could hypothetically "cover" what has come to be known as "the long ride."

I don't know how the school could be held accountable for this. Also, we don't know whether K was teething or not. There are a lot of stories, which means all but one is not true. Those are too many to be able to make a wise decision on the truth.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm getting really sleepy and am going to stop my list for now because it's almost 4 a.m.!

I'll be glad to post more of my speculation/hypothesis after some dreamtime and some coffee.

So, just to summarize for now -- I totally believe (MOO) that "where there's a will there's a way" -- and that *IF* involved in Ky's disappearance, TH would have found another time and another way.

I still believe (my speculation only) that TH's plan involved blaming the school and suing for a huge chunk of money and that never in her wildest dreams did she fathom that she would have to come up with a detailed and really believable alibi.

As many others have posted, people who plan and commit heinous crimes think they're so brilliant that they will not be caught -- AND -- they pretty much also inevitably screw something/or many things up.

There is also the matter of temporary "dumb luck." Most of the time, MOO, the clock on that "dumb luck" is ticking and does run out.

And, I hear that clock tick, tick, ticking...

 

[mayagrl]

I agree that noting and alerting the parents about his absence earlier could have been crucial and it should have been done.

Just wondering if he really was under the custody and care of Skyline school if the classes hadn't started yet and he had a parent herd him around the school premises who hadn't handed over the responsibility for him to his teacher or the bus driver that morning?

The school would have called TH which would have been a waste of time. She would have just picked a different location to do the deed. That she knew the school so well, in my mind is why she chose this location. Also don't forget the $$$ big bucks in play if the school district was sued later for negligence, and for ruining TH's reputation. Just as a so-called nuisance suit, the payoff would be huge just to be rid of it and not go to trial. She would get half the $$ KH received if divorced later. Cameras in the school would have saved them at least for possible blame later, but IMO not prevented Kyron going missing.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I try to just look at it as if "what if it was my child or grandchild."

I do think the school holds some responsibility. I wouldn't even want myself to be able to just walkout with my child or grandchild without even having to sign them out. The school cannot assume they have gone with me or their mom and dad. They must have signed documentation showing who took the child.

If no one saw Terri leaving with Kyron then Kyron could have just left with anyone and it seems no one noticed either way. That is chilling to me.

Kyron was there on school property that morning and once he steps foot inside the school then imo it is the responsibility of the school to keep up with his whereabouts.

And imo they know they dropped the ball and that is why they made immediate changes on security measures concerning their students. Too late for Kyron though. They should have been proactive instead of being reactive, imo.

IMO

 

[jadejazzkayla]

The school would have called TH which would have been a waste of time. [/B]She would have just picked a different location to do the deed. That she knew the school so well, in my mind is why she chose this location. Also don't forget the $$$ big bucks in play if the school district was sued later for negligence, and for ruining TH's reputation. Just as a so-called nuisance suit, the payoff would be huge just to be rid of it and not go to trial. She would get half the $$ KH received if divorced later. Cameras in the school would have saved them at least for possible blame later, but IMO not prevented Kyron going missing.

i failed but i was trying to bold the sentence re: call being a waste of time.

bbm..a waste of a minute or two because no one was at home that morning. but they could have called the next phone number in line - parents cell phones or kaine at the office. Many hours would have been saved and quite possibly made a life or death difference. I'm glad the school now has some sort of call procedure in place.

 

[akashana]

I'm not so sure it would have been a waste of time had they called Terri. Obviously she was counting on them not calling, so she (if indeed she did this) had factored this in to her plan. It could have caused her to abort the plan for awhile, buying Kyron more time. But I'm sadly aware that when there is murder in someone's heart, it can be hard to dispel it. But it could have definitely affected her abilty to elude arrest after the fact. Not too comforting for Kaine and Desiree, and certainly not at all for darling Kyron. But it might have factored in at getting justice served for whatever was done to him.

 

[angelainwi]

BBM
I can't help but mention that those who have taken the passion from a personal tragedy and turned it into into a gift to help others have my utmost respect - it is a wonderful turn of events for that victim.

Mark Klass comes to mind - his daughter Polly was kidnapped from her bedroom while having a sleep over - she was found murdered. Mark took his devastation and used it to help others. The amber alert, new laws, and changes in present laws have come about from the productive use of victim passion.

:highfive: to all those who have turned their pain into a productive endeavor. :blowkiss: to each and every person who has managed to help others. moo mho

People who have suffered personal trauma look for meaning in it and many become champions for causes as part of their healing. This is a good thing.

 

[Calliope]

IF Kyron never made it to class at all that morning and his teacher was not aware of his presence, then my answer is no, the school is not liable because they did not have a policy of notifying parents of absences.

IF TP's account is true, or even if the teacher knew Kyron had been present in the school at 8:45, then I think they certainly do bear some responsibility. I posted to this on an earlier thread.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5273012&postcount=663"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - OR - Kyron Horman, 7 yo Second grader, Portland, 4 June 2010 - Part #7[/ame]

 

[teacher 3]

I wondered if the teacher took attendance. Usually the teacher does and sends the list of absent students names to the office. That's a good question and I wonder if that was done...(At our school the home room teacher was responsible for making sure that was done)

 

[Calliope]

I wondered if the teacher took attendance. Usually the teacher does and sends the list of absent students names to the office. That's a good question and I wonder if that was done...(At our school the home room teacher was responsible for making sure that was done)

Early on, it was reported he was marked absent at 10 (that would have been the time the groups came back from their tours). But IIRC, that's never really been confirmed. I would HOPE she took attendance at the start of the day (8:45) prior to the kids dividing into groups for the tour... and checked again when they returned.

 

[sixnsolid]

I believe the school had less than adequate security measures. For that, they are responsible.

I was a PTA president for 10 years in an average size, suburban school district. The district has three K-2 sites, 2 3-5 sites, one 6-8 site and one 9-12 high school. Because of my children being in special dual languge programs I eneded up with kids in alll but one of the lower schools. Buzzed in, sign in, sign out, id stickers were the norm in all of them. Security cameras probably first appeared in the HS and Middle school in 2000, coming to elementary and primary schools later. Attendance policies give HS parents a live person phone call of a cut or absence the evening of the day after it occurs. Middle school parents generally receive a live person call mid morning on the day of the absence. I have only received the occasional call the day of an absence from an elementary or primary school, and it varies by school, despite there being a policy in place. I think staffing played into not receiving calls, as well as the school feeling like they "knew" me. However, when I ran PTA sponsored programs after school (six week sessions of ballet, karate, cooking..) I had to pick up my charges at their classrooms, take attendance, deliver them to their instructor and then scurry down to the office to call a parent if the child was absent. If my student list contained two parent's names - indicating separate living arrangements - I had to call them both - even if the first one reached said "Johnny is home sick". It was the notification practice the district followed.

I can't help but wonder what would have happened if Skyline school had called DY that day

 

[Donjeta]

I thought her hearing issue was a rumor which had been debunked. But with regard to confusion over an appointment, has it been proven impossible that in order to exonerate herself from any culpability, the teacher could have padded her lack of attention to a child not being in her care, she threw out there that she thought Terri had taken him to a Dr's appt, and that the reason no one else seems to know about it is because the teacher made it up on the spot to cover her ...self.

I think the hearing issue came from a statement by Terri's friend Jamie Finster saying that this is what Terri had told her. I would put it in the hearsay category more than a rumor. I haven't seen it debunked or confirmed.

 

[nursebeeme]

I believe the school had less than adequate security measures. For that, they are responsible.

I was a PTA president for 10 years in an average size, suburban school district. The district has three K-2 sites, 2 3-5 sites, one 6-8 site and one 9-12 high school. Because of my children being in special dual languge programs I eneded up with kids in alll but one of the lower schools. Buzzed in, sign in, sign out, id stickers were the norm in all of them. Security cameras probably first appeared in the HS and Middle school in 2000, coming to elementary and primary schools later. Attendance policies give HS parents a live person phone call of a cut or absence the evening of the day after it occurs. Middle school parents generally receive a live person call mid morning on the day of the absence. I have only received the occasional call the day of an absence from an elementary or primary school, and it varies by school, despite there being a policy in place. I think staffing played into not receiving calls, as well as the school feeling like they "knew" me. However, when I ran PTA sponsored programs after school (six week sessions of ballet, karate, cooking..) I had to pick up my charges at their classrooms, take attendance, deliver them to their instructor and then scurry down to the office to call a parent if the child was absent. If my student list contained two parent's names - indicating separate living arrangements - I had to call them both - even if the first one reached said "Johnny is home sick". It was the notification practice the district followed.

I can't help but wonder what would have happened if Skyline school had called DY that day

ITA with this!!!!

 

[lukne]

Yes, they bear responsibility, regardless of whether or not Terri was involved. They should have had a sign out procedure in place, as well as a parent call-in procedure for children who are not coming to school at all.

There should have been a process in place whereby when the teacher's roll hit the office, somebody compared the ones marked 'absent' against the sign out sheet, and list of students whose parents had called them in sick.

Any student not accounted for should have immediately had a call home, and if the parents can't be reached, then a call to 911 to report the child missing unless/until they're accounted for.

It seems to me that's just common sense to protect the children for whom you are legally (I'll leave out morally) responsible.

As a parent of two Skyline students, it pains me to see these kinds of accusations, especially from those who have no knowledge of the school and its procedures. Skyline does have sign in and sign out procedures and they are very safety conscious. Terri took advantage of what was to be a very hectic day and did her evil deed. She took advantage of a situation and manipulated the situation to make it seem like the school's fault.

I have no problem with sending my kids back to Skyline this fall as this was a family tragedy, and certainly not a school tragedy.:banghead:

 

[Aedrys]

As a parent of two Skyline students, it pains me to see these kinds of accusations, especially from those who have no knowledge of the school and its procedures. Skyline does have sign in and sign out procedures and they are very safety conscious. Terri took advantage of what was to be a very hectic day and did her evil deed. She took advantage of a situation and manipulated the situation to make it seem like the school's fault.

I have no problem with sending my kids back to Skyline this fall as this was a family tragedy, and certainly not a school tragedy.:banghead:

Thank you for saying this. I was wondering if anyone on here had kids that went to that school and could verify what procedures were in place. I think you're absolutely right that TH manipulated this school, and now the school is getting blamed for something that they have no control over. There's no one thing that could have happened to prevent this entire event, especially because it was planned and carried out in such a conniving and deceitful way.

Bless you for posting, and I am keeping all Skyline families in my prayers.

 

[samsmom]

Yes, they bear responsibility, regardless of whether or not Terri was involved. They should have had a sign out procedure in place, as well as a parent call-in procedure for children who are not coming to school at all.

There should have been a process in place whereby when the teacher's roll hit the office, somebody compared the ones marked 'absent' against the sign out sheet, and list of students whose parents had called them in sick.

Any student not accounted for should have immediately had a call home, and if the parents can't be reached, then a call to 911 to report the child missing unless/until they're accounted for.

It seems to me that's just common sense to protect the children for whom you are legally (I'll leave out morally) responsible.

ITA - I bet the school will have a new process this coming school year
Edit - sorry, responded too quickly - they do have a new process). Our sleepy Mississippi town has had tight security for years).

 

[human]

I graduated from high school in 1981. My school had kids coming and going all day long, as some worked half a day and got OWE credit (Occupational Work Experience). I can remember at least 6 sets of doors, not including the adjacent vocational building. We could leave for lunch and return (or not) to class. There were no guards, cameras, locked doors. I can only imagine the logistical nightmare of trying to monitor the comings and goings of so many teens, and fortunately, there were never any incidents.

My parochial grade school was much the same, altho much smaller, and absences would be much more noticeable. When I was in second grade, I missed the bus once because I was lost in a book and not paying attention. I was a shy kid and afraid to tell the teacher, so I just set out on my own to walk home. It was a mile away, and it took me awhile. It was my small hometown, I was quite familiar with the route and there were sidewalks the entire way so it was pretty safe. But when I finally arrived late, my Grandma was in a panic because I hadn't come home. My mom was a schoolteacher herself in a neighboring district, so she wasn't home. When I told my Grandma what had happened, she got on the phone with the school and gave them what-for for not noticing I missed the bus, and I got more of the same for not paying attention. This had to be about 1970. After that, they tightened up their procedures, and thankfully nothing happened to me enroute.

But my point is that regardless of school design, multiple entrances, etc., we need effective procedures and checks and balances to ensure that each child is safe and accounted for all day at school. Every school. Every child. We owe our kids that much.

The school is a building provided by the taxpayers.

It's up to the taxpayers to pay for what they want.

I suppose they can have cake walks for security, but really, is that what people want? How about really funding security?

I like our new school designs where the public areas such as the gym/auditorium are not available to the rest of the school during events and going through the office to sign in.

It takes MONEY.

 

[human]

I was always under the impression that once a child got on school grounds they were the responsiblity of the school ? What happened to bringing a note when you are going to be absent, a phone call from the parent when one is sick, and the school calling home when one doesn't arrive ? Seems that never cost anyone anything, it was the job of the secretary when I went to school. I wonder in the Tori Stafford case, if there was not a camera across the street, would the perps have been caught ? Or would everyone believe her Mother or her Mother's boyfriend were responsible. Seems to me it would save the school's rear end too, if a legitamate member of the family was seen taking the child off school property. Time really was of the essense in Kyron's case. Even in Tori's case, yet it took so long to identify the perp.

Hindsight is 20/20. Hm. I guess I didn't invent that phrase.

Coulda woulda shoulda. Now Skyline knows in it's 100 year history that something like this can happen.

They have taken steps to correct what happened.

It's ugly and horrifying. But the parents at the school apparently didn't see anything wrong with the system they had or they would have complained.

So what are schools supposed to do about a parent who takes the child out of the school, if is Terri who did this?

A lie detector test to determine if the parent is telling the truth about an absence?

 

[human]

ITA - I bet the school will have a new process this coming school year
Edit - sorry, responded too quickly - they do have a new process). Our sleepy Mississippi town has had tight security for years).

Call 911 if the parent can't be reached? I often can't be reached because I turn my school cell phone off during meetings like I am required to do. My hubby works out of town often and cannot be reached on the job site. Not allowed to have cell phones.

Emergency contacts doing what? Taking a shower?

Some parents that I had in school had phones, but they were poor and the phones did not take incoming calls or were disconnected and emergency contacts were the same.

Seriously, in a school with 600 hundred students . many of whom lived at homes of poverty , what could be done?

 

[YellowSubmarine]

I say no. This is a school in an area where something like this, I assume, either hasn't happened in a long time or has never happened at that school. Yes, it stinks that the staff was easily tricked by a confusing appointment, but I would never blame them for what happened to Kyron. TH took advantage of that school and it's lax security practices to do what she did. I am not going to blame the school when it was played by a cunning and manipulative woman, or even if by a predator. There is no way they could have known that he was kidnapped. I am sure every staff member feels terrible about what happened, and I am sure the kids are traumatized. It would add insult to injury to then blame them for what happened.

So no, I don't put any responsibility on them. I am sure they have learned their lesson and something like this won't happen again. I am sure they have tightened security and no teacher is just going to rely on a parent ever again for an appointment. I am sure they have to sign and verify the day and time a kid won't be there and even sign the kid out on the day of on top of that.

The responsibility should be shouldered by the person who did this, whether it's TH or a predator, and not the school. I see the school as a victim in all of this. How does it do any good to blame them for what happened to Kyron? It doesn't, and they shouldn't be blamed for it.

I have to respectfully disagree. IF the school would have called TH IMMEDIATELY upon noticing Kyron gone, he may still be here. Whether it was TH who took him or not, it could have changed this outcome.

The only way I would agree with you is IF TH did for sure tell the teacher Kyron had an appt and would definitely be leaving with her. IF this is the case, TH should most certainly be in custody right now as she claims she left him at school.

I think, at most, TH may have confused the teacher about the day. But, there is absolutely NO reason for one teacher to tell another that Kyron is getting a drink or in the bathroom. This leads me to believe she wasn't too sure about the appt. In this case, it's completely unacceptable that KNOWING Kyron had been at school they would ignore the fact he is suddenly gone. I would be furious if this happened at my childs school and really hope a lawsuit comes out of this, as well as Skyline losing many students.

Last year, I went to my daughters elementary school to pick her up at lunch time. I picked her up off the playground and signed her out in the office. The regular office lady wasn't in there when I did this. About half an hour later, I got a call from the school. Her teacher noticed her absence after coming back from lunch and called the office. The office lady told her I had signed her out, but then since she wasn't in the office when I did so, she called me just to double check. THAT is what should be happening in our schools. NOT "oh, he's probably getting a drink" and then forgetting about him. We should be able to trust that our childrens schools are keeping them safe.