Does the flu shot really work?

[Kavya01]

I had a flu shot once and was sick (flu-like symptoms for about 48 hours) from the injection, so I never got another.

This.
Never had flu until right after getting the flu shot one year, never since. Hope to continue to be lucky.

 

[LookingHoping]

I swear I posted here today. Was at the pharmacy and since about nobody goes in there and they didn't need appts I had a flu shot while there. I don't normally, but with my asthma and H1N1 out there strong I decided the benefits outweighed the risks this year. at least the parent in the house should be able to avoid the nasty weeks long variety. I know there are many many other strains out there, I got it due to H1N1.

 

[animlzrule]

This.
Never had flu until right after getting the flu shot one year, never since. Hope to continue to be lucky.

Psst….these are normal symptoms after having had the flu shot. That's why the Vaccine Information sheets talk about "flu like symptoms" for the 72 hours after the shot. That's your immune system building up antibodies, it's a good sign. It's not the full blown flu. When you have full blown flu you'll know it, because you'll want to die.

 

[animlzrule]

I had a flu shot once and was sick (flu-like symptoms for about 48 hours) from the injection, so I never got another.

These are normal symptoms after having had the flu vaccine. Typically last for up to 72 hours. It's the immune system firing up and building antibodies. It's actually a positive sign.

 

[elmomom]

Interesting fun fact, the flu doesn't kill, your reaction to it does. That pneumonia some get, and the aches and pains? It's your immune system going to war against the virus. Powerful chemicals are released yo your immune system, and your body, as the fighting grounds, is what suffers the toll.

There are two types of flu seasons. The first, the more common, is what everyone thinks of. Many people get the flu, and really only infants, the immune compromised, and the elderly are at risk of severe complications, like dying. Those are the years that the flu virus is similar on a molecular level to previous flu viruses, so normal, healthy people have a preprogrammed immune response from having "seen" a similar virus in the past.

The other type of flu season is the type that you want to make darn sure you do get the flu shot for. That is when the circulating virus that year has changed substantially on a molecular level from any previous flu virus. This type of flu, especially if it is a particularly robust strain, will most commonly kill the people posting here that say, I am fit, I eat well, I'm healthy and I never get sick, or when I do, my immune system takes care of it. Well, the type of flu that is new and novel, kills those people with alarming frequency. Because your body is so fit and your immune system is so strong, when it goes to war with this flu virus, your immune system itself causes your lungs considerable damage. You have such a violent response, that the chemokines (chemical messengers of the immune system) that cause fever and aches can cause you to actually kill brain cells and muscle tissue.

I generally keep my mouth shut, but I do get really pained when I read people's beliefs on forums and on internet comments. I am a virologist, I research vaccines and antiviral drugs for a living and I have heard it all. I don't try to convince anyone of anything. But I would like to just say that the flu kills, and it kills way more people in this country than any other virus, bar none. It is not hype and it is not a conspiracy for pharmacies to make money. It is a serious illness that is not taken seriously at all. I hope this helps someone.

 

[Tawny]

The other type of flu season is the type that you want to make darn sure you do get the flu shot for. That is when the circulating virus that year has changed substantially on a molecular level from any previous flu virus.

RSBM

I'm not a scientist or doctor, so maybe you can help educate me. If it has changed substantially on a molecular level from any previous flu virus, there won't be a vaccine for it, which is why it ends up being an epidemic. Doesn't it take a previous flu in order to develop a vaccine? A "new" flu won't have a vaccine, right?

 

[elmomom]

RSBM

I'm not a scientist or doctor, so maybe you can help educate me. If it has changed substantially on a molecular level from any previous flu virus, there won't be a vaccine for it, which is why it ends up being an epidemic. Doesn't it take a previous flu in order to develop a vaccine? A "new" flu won't have a vaccine, right?

By October, they will have had enough time to develop a vaccine for the flu. I'm not up on the progression, but generally, the flu mixes itself up and rearranges in the Far East, and by springtime, the CDC has a good lock on what the genetic sequence will be, even if it is substantially different than any previous virus. Once a research team has that genetic sequence (like a DNA sequence), they can make a vaccine. All it takes is a bit of lab work to create a vaccine strain that contains the new bits that are important, and then a huge manufacturing job to make vats of it.
The "new" virus has substantial changes in the sequence in both of the two genes that code for the two proteins on the outer part of the virus. All the rest if the virus stays virtually identical. Influenza has been very successful because is can mutate these two proteins so easily, and it is these two proteins that your immune system reacts to, so it has evolved a way of changing it's "clothes" every year so it is not recognized. But even wearing very different clothing, it is still just the same old virus.

Bird flu is pretty close to human influenza, but a little different. I am not one to hype the thing about bird flu. In my very humble opinion, if we ever have a bird flu outbreak that starts to be passed from human to human, we will have the capacity to immunize everyone within 6 months.

Most companies doing research on flu vaccines are still hopeful they can develop a "universal" vaccine against the flu that you will not have to get a new version of every year. So far, no luck. But we're working on it!
:seeya:

 

[Tawny]

That's fascinating. I'm always interested in how viruses mutate and how vaccines are made.

 

[Tawny]

I've always wondered and if I still have your ear maybe you can set me straight...

Do vaccines help attribute to the mutations? Like if we didn't have vaccines, the virus wouldn't mutate as substantially?

 

[elmomom]

I've always wondered and if I still have your ear maybe you can set me straight...

Do vaccines help attribute to the mutations? Like if we didn't have vaccines, the virus wouldn't mutate as substantially?

By the time you get vaccinated, and come into contact with the virus, it has already done its little mutation dance. So, the vaccine is after the virus has a real chance of mutating. It's been many, many years since I learned this stuff (we don't ever have to know this for what I do), but I'll give it a rough go -
From what I remember, the flu starts out in ducks, and pigs, and mixes. It then gets mixed again with circulating human viruses from the previous year. Each time two different strains of flu infect ducks or swine (honestly I can't remember which one it starts in and which one it mixes in) they cross and mutate. Eventually, a winner takes hold. At least that is how I remember it. So, that is where all the mutating and such goes on, and the exposure to the immune system comes much later in the game for the virus.
In order for flu to rapidly mutate, it needs to co-infect with another strain because of its unique genetic makeup, it has a segmented genome (like we do). Most viruses do not have this, and do not "rearrange" like flu does. Human immune systems generally prevent two strains from co-infection.

Also, mutations arise much more efficiently in a virus, or a bacteria when they are acted upon directly by a drug, rather than indirectly by a vaccine. Your immune system is much harder to evade, and it has to make many mutations to do this. Our immune system is like many hundreds of different drugs all at once, since we refine our immune reaction constantly while fighting an infection. A drug, on the other hand, works on only one small thing on the virus or bacteria, so it usually takes just one or two mutations to develop resistance, which is much easier for the bacteria or virus to have happen by happenstance.

I hope this makes sense, and thanks for the interest. I am not used to it- normally people get all glassy eyed and change the subject, it isn't fascinating to most people!

 

[LookingHoping]

I've always wondered and if I still have your ear maybe you can set me straight...

Do vaccines help attribute to the mutations? Like if we didn't have vaccines, the virus wouldn't mutate as substantially?

Yes, I believe so. Everything I know about bugs and bacterias tells me yes. I don't have a link, but there are many. The issues with basic antibiotics not working these days, amoxicillin on ear infections, are the most basic and true answers to this.

It is why vaccines can't keep up. It is even thought that whooping cough is a mutated form of it and people that are vaccinated are the ones that are getting it…though it is blamed on those not vaccinating. I suspect it is a mixture of this.

Survival is the goal of ANY organism on earth, viruses and bacterias are living. In fact, if you end up in an infectious disease issue in an ICU they literally call them 'bugs' not like flu bug but bugs that live, move, multiply (our best defense in survival is to multiply), eat and thereby destroy.

 

[LookingHoping]

Awesome post, Elmomom. I'm trying to reach back to schooling and also to my dad's death from viral encephalitis.


THIS is what made me begin looking into vaccination. I mentioned earlier if there was one vaccination I'd take back it would be the chicken pox vaccine. It is a nasty snowball to nothing good, imho. We have very young children coming out with shingles now. Had they had the real pox and had lots of exposure to the real pox over their lifetime they may have evaded shingles. The pox vaccine was one that was pushed out quickly… unfortunately the negative snowball hit quickly. Now we are onto shingles vaccinations…. so if we do this, then what? They do not know!

What I was told over and over when discussing with neurologists and infectious disease specialists was that encephalitis is like pox or shingles or herpes. In some, they get a cold sore, but others without that easy exposure, it hits the brain. Same families of viral disease. The pox are in you, apparently the more exposure the more they happily live in you, the less they begin to journey and become shingles.

This is not simple and easy, new virus, feed body with injection and build up immunity.

Immunity, as elmomom said, is a very natural process and nothing is comparable to the very slow and natural immunities we build as humans.

If I had it to do over again, I would do it much differently with my children. I do think there are some vaccines I'd still get. Good ole polio now that it is not the one of the past. BUT GOOD EXAMPLE THERE HUH! If we were doing more long term testing and had more fully detailed and honest reports to the public I'd be more inclined. Part of the problem is a virus like H1N1 comes out and begins to spread rapidly throughout the world and there is simply no time to test away.

For me, I will always lean on what I personally feel are the risks and benefits and will weigh them each and every time. I have a friend dealing with serious pain (and permanent brain damage) from GBS likely due to flu shot. This was 10 yrs ago now i think? She's getting cortisone shots to make insurance happy so she can go to Boston and have major surgery on her neck. It is awful. She is not the same person… scares the crap out of me.

SO I got the shot today and came home and had some good old fermented beets and such and some kefir and anything in the house I could find with good old probiotics to try to boost up my immune system! HAHA pathetic I know… but it is the only thing I knew to do.

 

[LinasK]

I swear I posted here today. Was at the pharmacy and since about nobody goes in there and they didn't need appts I had a flu shot while there. I don't normally, but with my asthma and H1N1 out there strong I decided the benefits outweighed the risks this year. at least the parent in the house should be able to avoid the nasty weeks long variety. I know there are many many other strains out there, I got it due to H1N1.

Good for you! I have asthma too. Even though I came down with a mild case of the flu, which I'm still not completely over, I still highly recommend getting the shot. 20 people around here have died due to H1N1, and some of them were perfectly healthy young people, one was only 23!!!

 

[LinasK]

Interesting fun fact, the flu doesn't kill, your reaction to it does. That pneumonia some get, and the aches and pains? It's your immune system going to war against the virus. Powerful chemicals are released yo your immune system, and your body, as the fighting grounds, is what suffers the toll.

There are two types of flu seasons. The first, the more common, is what everyone thinks of. Many people get the flu, and really only infants, the immune compromised, and the elderly are at risk of severe complications, like dying. Those are the years that the flu virus is similar on a molecular level to previous flu viruses, so normal, healthy people have a preprogrammed immune response from having "seen" a similar virus in the past.

The other type of flu season is the type that you want to make darn sure you do get the flu shot for. That is when the circulating virus that year has changed substantially on a molecular level from any previous flu virus. This type of flu, especially if it is a particularly robust strain, will most commonly kill the people posting here that say, I am fit, I eat well, I'm healthy and I never get sick, or when I do, my immune system takes care of it. Well, the type of flu that is new and novel, kills those people with alarming frequency. Because your body is so fit and your immune system is so strong, when it goes to war with this flu virus, your immune system itself causes your lungs considerable damage. You have such a violent response, that the chemokines (chemical messengers of the immune system) that cause fever and aches can cause you to actually kill brain cells and muscle tissue.

I generally keep my mouth shut, but I do get really pained when I read people's beliefs on forums and on internet comments. I am a virologist, I research vaccines and antiviral drugs for a living and I have heard it all. I don't try to convince anyone of anything. But I would like to just say that the flu kills, and it kills way more people in this country than any other virus, bar none. It is not hype and it is not a conspiracy for pharmacies to make money. It is a serious illness that is not taken seriously at all. I hope this helps someone.

Excellent post!!! This is the research. I don't buy half of what Dr. Mercola puts out- he's a conspiracy theorist.

 

[jadejazzkayla]

thank you for your very informative explanation, elmomom.

 

[animlzrule]

Thanks Elmomom!

It really can feel like a losing battle trying to educate people and battle myths about the flu vaccine can't it? With some people there is just nothing you can say to dispel the worn out, years old wives tales, myths and misinformation regarding the flu and the vaccine. I really want to bang my head every time I hear "The flu shot gave me the flu", or "I had the flu shot and I got the flu anyway!" It always baffles me that a scientifically based explanation can be trumped by an anecdote! :scared::seeya:

 

[Montjoy]

Thanks elmomom! I have been befuddled by this thread, on a few counts. First, the title of this thread and its poll question have nothing to do with each other. But aside from that, I wonder what people expect a vaccine to do. And I wonder how so many people who expect others to respect medical science might make exceptions for vaccines.

Myself, I always have to take every bloody vaccine that is available for my work, which requires that I travel to some very remote locales. To be fair to the conversation here, yes, there have been times (scant few) when I have thought that I became ill because of an inoculation. I think one time I might have had a rabies reaction when I was nipped by an arctic fox, but at the time I am sure that I thought my flu shot was responsible. A couple of years earlier, I was unsure if an illness was shot-related or owing to the people with whom I'd had contact, given differences in our flora and the number of ill folks I'd met.

I'm not sure how any one Websleuther's experience could be representative here, but given what something like a 'flu shot' can do, I would submit that, aside from it not being a cure-all for infection, and aside from its efficacy for a relatively well defined strain of virus, someone's history and activity could lend one to believe it was ineffective or hazardous, when neither may, in truth, be the case.

 

[Montjoy]

Double-post, please delete.

 

[LinasK]

Thanks Elmomom!

It really can feel like a losing battle trying to educate people and battle myths about the flu vaccine can't it? With some people there is just nothing you can say to dispel the worn out, years old wives tales, myths and misinformation regarding the flu and the vaccine. I really want to bang my head every time I hear "The flu shot gave me the flu", or "I had the flu shot and I got the flu anyway!" It always baffles me that a scientifically based explanation can be trumped by an anecdote! :scared::seeya:

Um, with all due respect, I emphasized that although this did happen to me, it was a mild case- not the full-blown flu, and I still highly recommend getting the shot! I've also had the mild reactions within 24-48 hours of getting the shot, and I know that's not the flu either...

 

[animlzrule]

Um, with all due respect, I emphasized that although this did happen to me, it was a mild case- not the full-blown flu, and I still highly recommend getting the shot! I've also had the mild reactions within 24-48 hours of getting the shot, and I know that's not the flu either...

Please allow me to clarify. I'm speaking of people who believe that the flu shot was ineffective because they happened to get the flu even though they had gotten the vaccine. People don't understand that the vaccine cannot provide immunity for ALL strains of the flu, and/or that it takes the body 2 weeks to build up immunity after having had the injection. Therefore, they believe the vaccine is not effective and their personal mantra to all who will listen is, "the shot doesn't work, I still got the flu". It's enormously frustrating to those of us in the health care field that we cannot seem to break through this wall of erroneous belief. It's akin to people believing that a fever is a symptom of illness, when in fact, it's actually the immune system kicking in and fevers are a good thing. But people will ignore other actual CONCERNING symptoms and focus on a fever, which are typical to run between 101 and 104 during a viral illness and are not an indicator of how sick someone is, although fevers in that range can make one feel so crappy because of how hard your body is working to fight the infection. I'll get off my soapbox now!:seeya: Flu season is just a particularly frustrating time of year to be a nurse!:tantrum: