Dogs

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

HRD dogs can absolutely smell things months and years later (like hundreds of years if specially trained). Trailing dogs following LIVE scent, no way, not 6 months later.

Do we have an autopsy report as to when she died?

 

[sarx]

Lipin, if a HRD/Cadaver dog was taken to an area where a "tip" lead them to one of these dogs would have no trouble finding remains decades later.

 

[sarx]

You're right Jjenny, we don't know if she was anywhere the dogs went. The fact of the matter is, even if the police had taken this info seriously (if they were given this info), then what? The dogs dead ended at the library in Pala (It's also surprising to me that they could trail jump all the way down the freeway for 15 miles but then get hung up and lose it out in the outer south 40). So, now we're at the Pala library, now what? Her body was found 3.5 miles from there. Without the help of dogs to pick up a trail and give them a direction LE/SAR wouldn't have a clue which way to go, where to search. She could have been anywhere and that is WAY too big of a search area for ground crews. Think about it. While the family and Nancy Grace are screaming "she was just 3 and a 1/2 miles from where the dogs ended), take a map of where you live, now draw a circle 3 1/2 miles out, pretty big area huh? Now how would you search that area thoroughly?

Edit to add- Even if dogs gave a direction of travel it still wouldn't help a lot in that big of an area realistically. We searched for Christina Williams (sadly, they didn't call us in right away), did pick up the scent, got the direction of travel, made it over the pass on the offramp and then lost it. She was found 2 miles inland off that exit a year later by a hiker. We sent them the right way, but there were miles and miles of open land, no possible way to search it all.

 

[Ghostwheel]

An air dog would most likely NOT be able to pick up a scent from a vehicle as described, unless there was a distinctive and already discernable scent coming from the vehicle. But a good tracking dog could pick up a scent in one place, maintain the scent while being transported to another, and on and on as long as the scent article keeps reminding them. An HRD dog can do this as well.

So a good tracking dog can pick up a scent of person inside a vehicle, who has not exited the vehicle nor opened a window, 15 miles down a freeway at a busy off ramp, when the vehicle is no longer there (and probably hasn't been for several hours)? (I'm not asking about 6 months later, just in a standard someone went missing case)

Has any tracking dog ever done this?

TIA

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

So a good tracking dog can pick up a scent of person inside a vehicle, who has not exited the vehicle nor opened a window, 15 miles down a freeway at a busy off ramp, when the vehicle is no longer there (and probably hasn't been for several hours)? (I'm not asking about 6 months later, just in a standard someone went missing case)

Has any tracking dog ever done this?

TIA

Ghostwheel, it would depend upon the situation. Did the vehicle stop at the off ramp? Did anyone exit the vehicle- not only the one person the dogs are searching for, but anyone that they might be accompanied by? Did someone throw out a cigarette butt or any other personal item along the way or at the exit ramp? Are the tires brand new? Did the vehicle hit something along those 15 miles? Is the person the dogs are trailing alive or dead? Are the dogs trailing more than one person that might be in the vehicle, not just the missing person?
There are many, many things to consider when using dogs for trailing and scent detection purposes.

 

[Ghostwheel]

Ghostwheel, it would depend upon the situation. Did the vehicle stop at the off ramp? Did anyone exit the vehicle- not only the one person the dogs are searching for, but anyone that they might be accompanied by? Did someone throw out a cigarette butt or any other personal item along the way or at the exit ramp? Are the tires brand new? Did the vehicle hit something along those 15 miles? Is the person the dogs are trailing alive or dead? Are the dogs trailing more than one person that might be in the vehicle, not just the missing person?
There are many, many things to consider when using dogs for trailing and scent detection purposes.

Thank you, I figured that was probably the case. My curiosity comes from a standard scenario in a day: Person A picks up person B, drives up the road on the freeway in an enclosed car, windows up, AC on, no one opens a window, no one exits the car, Nothing gets thrown out the car, etc, car gets off on ramp, runs through a mud puddle, continues 20 miles down the road in a different direction, where someone then gets out. It seems it would be difficult for a dog to track a person under those circumstances.

 

[sarx]

Ghostwheel, yes, it would be difficult to say the least. I have worked trails on the freeway where we have had police escorts and we have had some (not great) success, but these were fresh trails (hours old). The success goes down rapidly from my experience with time. Even when we're talking hours or a day or two, it is much harder as there is obviously a whole lot less scent to come out of the car.
In order for a dog to trail a specific car they are going to have a specific scent.

So, if Person A is who your scent article is for and that person gets out of the car at some point, then the dog will stay on that trail and not keep going with the car. Likewise if person B is the scent article used then A could get tossed out of the car and the dog would continue on the B trail (assuming they can smell it).

In Amber's case they would have been using a scent article of hers (something with her smell only on it).

Car trailing is difficult under perfect circumstances, the scent trail, which is much smaller to start with, is rapidly deteriorated by the sun, complete exposure to the elements and heat. We have had much higher success on the small highways in the mountains where the roads tend to stay damp and are tree covered and have mtns that help "pool" the scent. When we've worked the big open expansive freeways and highways no so much.

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

Thank you, I figured that was probably the case. My curiosity comes from a standard scenario in a day: Person A picks up person B, drives up the road on the freeway in an enclosed car, windows up, AC on, no one opens a window, no one exits the car, Nothing gets thrown out the car, etc, car gets off on ramp, runs through a mud puddle, continues 20 miles down the road in a different direction, where someone then gets out. It seems it would be difficult for a dog to track a person under those circumstances.

It would be extremely difficult for a dog to trail under those circumstances unless it was live run. Vehicles with passengers in them DO emit scent, even with windows closed and AC on. Vehicles themselves emit scent. If the mud puddle contained something in it that a dog was trained to hit on, it might hit on that.
Use this as a scenario- if someone is driving along a road and they hit a pedestrian with their right front tire, and continue on- then pull over and run through a mud puddle with their right front tire....then there are dogs that could pick up the scent of the person who was hit from the mud puddle. Do you understand?
ETA: The dog would have to be brought to the area of the mud puddle.

 

[sarx]

Course you'd have to know they'd run through the mud puddle! LOL, sorry, couldn't help it. I think we all (SAR handlers, trainers, and the GP) in here are just trying to figure out in what scenario this search back in August could have worked. True?

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

Course you'd have to know they'd run through the mud puddle! LOL, sorry, couldn't help it. I think we all (SAR handlers, trainers, and the GP) in here are just trying to figure out in what scenario this search back in August could have worked. True?

Yes, thus the ETA: the dog would have to be brought to the mud puddle.

And yes- I agree- we're just trying to figure this out..........

 

[sarx]

jjenny, I don't know of any documentation of a dog running a trail successfully six months later. I've called in to a number a fellow groups in our area and neither do they. I am still looking for some sort of case history on it though.

 

[Ghostwheel]

Thank you both, sarx and JTSYS (I think I got that right). While I could see a good trailing dog working a walked path or even an around town car trail, I could see things going rapidly downhill on a freeway or as time went on, and you confirmed my thought process. Not that it wouldn't be possible, the possibility just declines as circumstances add up (months passing, distance traveled, person goes to the library and takes a bath in the sink with perfumed soap and puts on someone else's clothes(that's a joke), etc).

HRD/Cadaver dogs are a different case of biscuits, I know. How they works makes complete sense to me.

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

jjenny, I don't know of any documentation of a dog running a trail successfully six months later. I've called in to a number a fellow groups in our area and neither do they. I am still looking for some sort of case history on it though.

sarx, I can make a few calls myself. It just seems like the clarification on this is nil. Are we mostly concerned about whether or not this company is making valid claims and/or the family was taken advantage of by this company?

 

[sarx]

I think that it would be good to try and figure out on several levels. One, the media blitz on it has been out of control and letting people know the truth of it would be good (even if only on here).
Secondly, and probably more critical for me is for future cases and future families that are going through this. Even if money is not involved, the false sense of hope that come from things like this can be devastating. (Anyone remember Sandra Anderson?).

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

I think that it would be good to try and figure out on several levels. One, the media blitz on it has been out of control and letting people know the truth of it would be good (even if only on here).
Secondly, and probably more critical for me is for future cases and future families that are going through this. Even if money is not involved, the false sense of hope that come from things like this can be devastating. (Anyone remember Sandra Anderson?).

I agree entirely. Sadly, we're not getting any televised or printed reporting here (opposite coast) on this, but then again we not getting reporting on a lot of MP cases that are active here either. I never know if it's better for the media to be blitzing or hushing, ya know?
And yes I totally agree about the false sense of hope. I do believe there is a purpose and use for proper search techniques, carried out in the proper fashion, with the appropriate people running them. That's just hope, not false hope IMO.

ETA- I do not know the Sandra Anderson Case. Will look it up.

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

I was thinking this was a MP's case but just looked it up quickly and seems like we should know SA...but I don't. (?)
I know handlers/trainers that essentially lie by 'planting' in practice runs, but man, in a work environment??

 

[sarx]

It wasn't even for money either, for glory? Validation? She worked the World Trade Center too IIRC. It's horrible, but not everyone is out there for the right reasons.

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

It wasn't even for money either, for glory? Validation? She worked the World Trade Center too IIRC. It's horrible, but not everyone is out there for the right reasons.

Jeez, mental illness is the only thing I can come up with??? Did you guys work 9/11? There were not that many dogs there (considering.) I am sort of sickened by that sort of thing...

 

[sarx]

Nope. They're talking about the dogs over in the tips thread again, Grace is the one that stirred this all up. When will there be a show on that actually only focuses on facts? Or if they want to speculate they clearly state that and then actually get a panel of experts in to help. I am so irritated with the media.

 

[HOOKEDNAN]

Thank you so much Sarx and JTSYS for all the helpful and patient explanations. I have been wondering (and please forgive me if I just dont get it), what if the killer kept an item of hers as a trophy of some kind. What if he travelled that area frequently following the same route? What if he was the one at the library after murdering her and still had her scent on him? Would it be plausible/possible for the dogs to pick up scent then?
Sorry, I know nothing of this topic, but your discussions intrigued me!