Ebola outbreak - general thread #9

[SeekingJana]

I'm SO sorry about Nina getting Ebola, but I support her decision to file suit against the hospital. Presby is an awful hospital and the infection control team was totally unprepared to handle an Ebola patient, as we can all see in hindsight.
Nina KNEW they were, she and a co-worker had to look up the precautions in a book. She and her co-workers toiled to provide lying Thomas Duncan ( hasn't been to Africa, you know, until his nephew told the hospital) with care and comfort.

Her life may be forever changed by the disease and the radical experimental treatment used to treat her and help eradicate the virus from her body.
She deserves every bit of compensation she can get, and I hope she has an excellent attorney.
I also hope that once her suit is over, that Amber VInson sues.
Presby, and by extension, the lying management of Texas Health System. deserves to be bankrupted by the compensation owed the 2 young, healthy nurses they almost allowed to be killed.

And to those who say " Nina CHOSE to take care of Duncan"-- NO. When you work ICU, you are assigned to patients by the nurse in charge, or it is posted on the assignment sheet in terms like " Adm.1", "Adm.2", etc. IF she had refused to take care of Duncan or any other patient, then she would have most likely been fired for cause, and her RN license would have also been in jeopardy.
IF they put a " voluntary care" roster up after he was so ill, she was already exposed to his body fluids. The hospital likely used the same nurses as often as possible because they knew who had already been exposed in paper gowns, shoe covers and plain surgical paper masks.

Also, after having been a patient in a highly rated Texas Health Systems facility, and received such poor care that I checked myself out and went elsewhere, I hope the nurses- every single one of them- will sue for the max. they can, and possibly effect positive change in the Texas Health Systems management or put the horrible company out of business.

 

[jjenny]

Do you truly equate the flu or a cold with Ebola?

People have died from the flu.
Actually, many more people died from the flu than from ebola.

 

[nrdsb4]

I'm SO sorry about Nina getting Ebola, but I support her decision to file suit against the hospital. Presby is an awful hospital and the infection control team was totally unprepared to handle an Ebola patient, as we can all see in hindsight.

Yes and no. Ebola had never shown up in the US before. I would wager that aside from the four designated Ebola units, most if not all US hospitals were unprepared to deal with ebola. Tragic though it was, it woke up our health care system, so at least there is some level of preparedness now, though I still am skeptical. This kind of care takes a lot of practice to do well, and current hospital staffs are pretty overwhelmed right now just trying to do business as usual.

And to those who say " Nina CHOSE to take care of Duncan"-- NO. When you work ICU, you are assigned to patients by the nurse in charge, or it is posted on the assignment sheet in terms like " Adm.1", "Adm.2", etc. IF she had refused to take care of Duncan or any other patient, then she would have most likely been fired for cause, and her RN license would have also been in jeopardy.

Yes, she could have been fired for cause, but her license would not be in danger unless she accepted the assignment, then walked off and abandoned her patient. She could have invoked Safe Harbor in writing, stating that she had not received the proper training to take on that patient and that she did not have access to the proper protective equipment.

Also, after having been a patient in a highly rated Texas Health Systems facility, and received such poor care that I checked myself out and went elsewhere, I hope the nurses- every single one of them- will sue for the max. they can, and possibly effect positive change in the Texas Health Systems management or put the horrible company out of business.

"Every one of the nurses" cannot sue successfully unless they show that they have been injured. Only two were injured. I know nurses who work at PHD and they are dedicated, amazingly competent and fantastic nurses. You realize that if your wish to "bankrupt" that hospital comes true, a lot of great people will be out of work? There is currently no nursing shortage.

I support Nina's right to sue. However, it would be a mistake to assume nurses are owed 100% protection from risk. I am a RN who has worked in critical care, and we know that every day we walk into that unit, we are putting ourselves at risk. Needle sticks, exposure to communicable disease are risks that cannot be reduced to zero. ER nurses are particularly vulnerable. They are the first line, and I see no evidence that ER nurses would like Hazmat gear to be part of their daily uniform. That's pretty much the only way you can guarantee that you won't be infected with any number of diseases which are not apparent at first interface.

The 60 minute interviews with some of the nurses who cared for Mr. Duncan were very interesting and gives a peek into the "inside" story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pp28QYJDMI

Presby nurses talk about how they were ostracized in the community:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3UaU1-4nvk

 

[SeekingJana]

Yes and no. Ebola had never shown up in the US before. I would wager that aside from the four designated Ebola units, most if not all US hospitals were unprepared to deal with ebola. Tragic though it was, it woke up our health care system, so at least there is some level of preparedness now, though I still am skeptical. This kind of care takes a lot of practice to do well, and current hospital staffs are pretty overwhelmed right now just trying to do business as usual.




Yes, she could have been fired for cause, but her license would not be in danger unless she accepted the assignment, then walked off and abandoned her patient. She could have invoked Safe Harbor in writing, stating that she had not received the proper training to take on that patient and that she did not have access to the proper protective equipment.



"Every one of the nurses" cannot sue successfully unless they show that they have been injured. Only two were injured. I know nurses who work at PHD and they are dedicated, amazingly competent and fantastic nurses. You realize that if your wish to "bankrupt" that hospital comes true, a lot of great people will be out of work? There is currently no nursing shortage.

I support Nina's right to sue. However, it would be a mistake to assume nurses are owed 100% from risk. I am a RN who has worked in critical care, and we know that every day we walk into that unit, we are putting ourselves at risk. Needle sticks, exposure to communicable disease are risks that cannot be reduced to zero.

The 60 minute interviews with some of the nurses who cared for Mr. Duncan were very interesting and gives a peek into the "inside" story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pp28QYJDMI

Presby nurses talk about how they were ostracized in the community:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3UaU1-4nvk

Your argument fails to recognize that Nina had already been exposed to Duncan's bodily fluids by the time she had the theoretically elective decision to refuse to take him as her assigned patient.
Also, the theory of refusing an assignment is lovely, but except in the very few states with strong Nurses' Unions, I think she would have been fired for refusing to care for him, and that she would have been reported to the TX Board of Nursing. You have a lot more faith in this state's " fair policy" regarding nurses who refuse patient assignment than I do.

I've been an RN for over 30 years, and the TX board of nursing is the only one I've ever felt was extremely punitive in disciplinary action. IOW, I do not believe they " play fairly", and I am very glad that I've never worked as an RN in TX.

You can defend Presby all you like, but Nina and Amber have valid reasons to litigate.
Texas Health Systems is a of a health care company. I know what I know from direct experience as one of their patients, and I HATE the company and definitely think their weak point in the facility I was hospitalized in Fort Worth is the nurses. It is one of the worst hospitals in N. Texas, but had a great history until it was bought by THS. Terrible nurses, horrible care.. I'll never forget or forgive them.

 

[EmmaliLucia]

She got an infectious disease from which she recovered. So I guess now I can sue somebody if I get the flu? Or cold? So many avenues for lawsuits.

So if someone hit you with their car or somehow caused you to break your leg due to gross negligence, but your leg healed, you're telling me you wouldn't at the very least expect them to pay your expensive hospital bills?

 

[SCHMAE]

http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/local/2015/03/02/nina-pham-lawsuit-ebola-document/24266655/

Fully copy of the lawsuit filed against Pres. hospital by Nurse Pham.

 

[sloane7777]

I don't blame her , I watched on TV about all the protocol's put into place over and over while my supervisors husband, who works there said NOTHING was put in place, there were no protocols, they had not dealt with this and were never trained to deal with this, so don't believe they had it under control otherwise they never would have sent a man home that could not walk out the door on his own. JMO

 

[sloane7777]

don't blame her , I watched on TV about all the protocol's put into place over and over while my supervisors husband, who works there said NOTHING was put in place, there were no protocols, they had not dealt with this and were never trained to deal with this, so don't believe they had it under control otherwise they never would have sent a man home that could not walk out the door on his own. JMO

 

[nrdsb4]

Your argument fails to recognize that Nina had already been exposed to Duncan's bodily fluids by the time she had the theoretically elective decision to refuse to take him as her assigned patient.
Also, the theory of refusing an assignment is lovely, but except in the very few states with strong Nurses' Unions, I think she would have been fired for refusing to care for him, and that she would have been reported to the TX Board of Nursing. You have a lot more faith in this state's " fair policy" regarding nurses who refuse patient assignment than I do.

I've been an RN for over 30 years, and the TX board of nursing is the only one I've ever felt was extremely punitive in disciplinary action. IOW, I do not believe they " play fairly", and I am very glad that I've never worked as an RN in TX.

You can defend Presby all you like, but Nina and Amber have valid reasons to litigate.
Texas Health Systems is a of a health care company. I know what I know from direct experience as one of their patients, and I HATE the company and definitely think their weak point in the facility I was hospitalized in Fort Worth is the nurses. It is one of the worst hospitals in N. Texas, but had a great history until it was bought by THS. Terrible nurses, horrible care.. I'll never forget or forgive them.

I would appreciate it you would not twist my words. I have not defended THS, nor have I disputed Nina and Amber's right to sue. On the contrary, I have stated that I totally understand it and support them completely.

You cannot lose your license for refusing to take a patient in Texas. You can be fired, but her license would never have been in danger for refusal to take a patient who she deemed she was incapable of taking care of. I also know for a FACT that a certain number of nurses at PHD did state that they would not take care of this patient, and all have intact licenses. None have been reported to the BON and none were even fired.

Lastly, I don't know what your experience was in Ft. Worth. But I know many of the critical care nurses at PHD and they are consummate professionals. You may attempt to disparage them with your broad strokes, but I know differently.

 

[nrdsb4]

An interesting article from today's Dallas Morning News on Nina Pham updating her life and future plans.

http://res.dallasnews.com/interactives/nina-pham/

I wonder if the death of her relationship had anything to do with this event or if that was something which was inevitable. I am just curious, but of course know that I'm not entitled to have that information.

 

[nrdsb4]

At approx. 3:02 in this interview, the nurses state that they wore the gear recommended by the CDC at that time, which in their estimate was insufficient. Photo is included here. It seems it was the nurses who went to work on trying to get something more protective. Amazingly, according to this story, it took 3 weeks for the CDC to change their official recommendations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pp28QYJDMI

 

[nrdsb4]

Ironically, just two days before Mr. Duncan came to the PHD ER the first time, some Nevada registered nurses protested to express concern about United States hospitals' state of preparedness, including adequate supplies of personal protection equipment on hand, properly equipped isolation rooms, and questionable protocols and training materials in place in the probable event of a person infected with Ebola coming to their facilities.

They stated that their concerns were not taken seriously by their employers.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2014/sep/24/nurses-simulate-ebola-deaths-vegas-strip/

I believe there was some magical thinking going on in our country that ebola would never affect us.

 

[Hiandmighty]

My Dh is a M.D. as are all our friends. We talked about all putting in and buying one hazmat suit for ebola just in case (I believe they are 15k each).

My sister is an R.N. out West and she won't even discuss an Ebola threat because it isn't going to happen.

There is magical thinking all around...

 

[Hiandmighty]

I cant read the lawsuit on my ipad. What exactly is she suing for? Thanks.

http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/local/2015/03/02/nina-pham-lawsuit-ebola-document/24266655/

 

[MyBelle]

Well, this isn't really a surprise. I'm sure Amber Vinson will follow her lead. The health system will likely settle with both but will have some kind of nondisclosure clause included in the settlement. That's my guess.

My guess is that they will fight her tooth and nail and say she failed to follow proper protocol in protecting herself.

JMO

 

[Hiandmighty]

My guess is they are going to say she was infected before anyone knew he had ebola. (Refresh my memory-- they did not know he had it at first, correct?)

That she should sue him (his estate) and not the hospital...

 

[MyBelle]

I cant read the lawsuit on my ipad. What exactly is she suing for? Thanks.

http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/local/2015/03/02/nina-pham-lawsuit-ebola-document/24266655/

It reads like a novel and is so totally over-the-top it is ridiculous so I stopped reading it. She claims she had no choice in taking care of Duncan and when he was admitted as her one and only patient in the ICU unit, she was told he had Ebola but could care for him "remotely." She also claims that she had absolutely no training and blames the hospital. She makes herself sound totally incompetent and after reading what I did, I can understand why Duncan died.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

My guess is they are going to say she was infected before anyone knew he had ebola. (Refresh my memory-- they did not know he had it at first, correct?)

That she should sue him (his estate) and not the hospital...

No, she's claiming she was told he had Ebola but she didn't have a choice in caring for him and that she had no training to do so. She's blaming the hospital. <modsnip>

JMO

 

[Hiandmighty]

It reads like a novel and is so totally over-the-top it is ridiculous so I stopped reading it. She claims she had no choice in taking care of Duncan and when he was admitted as her one and only patient in the ICU unit, she was told he had Ebola but could care for him "remotely." She also claims that she had absolutely no training and blames the hospital. She makes herself sound totally incompetent and after reading what I did, I can understand why Duncan died.

JMO

I was able to read the first paragraph and it did read unlike any other lawsuit I have ever read.

 

[nrdsb4]

My guess is they are going to say she was infected before anyone knew he had ebola. (Refresh my memory-- they did not know he had it at first, correct?)

That she should sue him (his estate) and not the hospital...

When Nina began caring for Mr. Duncan, his test results were not in, but everyone knew they were dealing with a potential ebola patient.