From near the beginning of this case, the police wouldn't comment on the cell phone and close sources were showing what she looked like without glasses. It could be a real possibility that her belongings, including her clothes would be in her room.
I would think the police have known that she regularly took medication by talking to her parents or sister, although not necessarily. According to her blog, she had quite a history with psychology/psychiatry, which I would guess would be known to them, especially given that she lived with them and showed outward signs of serious depression (sequestering herself in her bedroom for extended periods, only completing three classes after three years of attempting college, despite being very obviously smart). I don't know... just thoughts.I think the police had announced that they had her possessions but wouldn't be specific on what they kept. I believe they had her glasses because the family knew she didn't have her glasses with her when she went missing. I also think the police didn't have her prescriptions because LE is quoted as saying something to the effect that she was not taking any medications as far as they knew - which leads me to the possibility that she may have walked in on someone stealing her pills.
Do you know that the phone was stolen, or is that speculation? I ask because I wasn't sure if the authorities had announced that or something.Her blackberry was stolen on the day she checked into the hotel, but she said she lost it at the "speakeasy". It makes me wonder if that phone was part of a series of thefts that is connected to the endpoint.
Do you know that the phone was stolen, or is that speculation? I ask because I wasn't sure if the authorities had announced that or something.
I just had the impression that she lost it in a bar situation, since that's pretty common.
Do you know that the phone was stolen, or is that speculation? I ask because I wasn't sure if the authorities had announced that or something.
I just had the impression that she lost it in a bar situation, since that's pretty common.
So let's try it again. Ask a question; answer a question. It's actually very easy. Just leave out the personal remarks.
:tyou:
I do not think it fair to look at a person's Tumblr site and a 2 min video and declare that she was psychotic. I have not read all of her Tumblr as I feel it disrespectful to analyze every little thing, diagnose, and label her, without really having any clue and no right to do so. If this helped the case at all then I could see, but at this point we are all spinning our wheels.
I haven't read all the original exchange on her mental health, but my experience tells me our conjecture should not go beyond bi-polar disorder. or even mild depression as stated by the LAPD. period. Psychotic is way over the top.
First, I am not an authority or credentialed in psychiatry, but I do have an incurable condition which stems from neurotransmitter imbalance, and I can tell you from experience and exhaustive research that science knows little of the brain; diagnostics and treatment is really still in the dark ages. Diagnoses for most neurological maladies are based on clinical observation, that is essentially not much more than a medical opinion. In my case, diagnostic error rates are 30%, and it is quite common to have to observe a patient over time (course of months) to note consistent behaviors and to substantiate diagnosis. Also, drug trials are often used to in a "challenge". If the drug works for abcd disorder likely that patient has abcd disorder. Hardly scientific. Having a doctor look at that video and conclude she is psychotic does little to sway me especially when there is no context for her behavior. BTW, initial diagnosis rate for Bi Polar disorder is 69%!!!! I have a friend "undiagnosed" with a disorder after 27 years of treatment for it; including brain surgery.
See the study here: Overconfidence as a Cause of Diagnostic Error in Medicine
In looking at her Tumblr notes, EL could have had Bipolar Disorder II which results in mood extremes between depression and hypomania. Not mania. It's mania lite. You do not likely decide to skinny dip in the water tank used for the hotel you are staying in on the night before you check out. She would most likely be super, outgoing, talk incessantly, flirt more openly, etc. In fact, I see hypomania in her Tumblr; it is quite at times obvious in her writing. This med cocktail, in fact, makes her more vulnerable to a perp because her reality is slightly distorted making her less inhibited and much more open to suggestion.
Has anyone stopped to look into type I or type II bipolar disorder? EL said she had hypomania. Look at the official medical sites, but more importantly see how people live it. Quoting studies with abstract numbers on which 70% may not even have the disorder being studied means little too.
This is hardly authoritative but it really one of the most clear difference between the types:
Mania may include psychotic symptoms - delusions or hallucinations. Hypomania does not have psychotic symptoms.
The presence of psychosis automatically rules out hypomania.
source: http://bipolar.about.com/cs/faqs/f/faq_bp12dif.htm
Nowhere have I seen EL mention "mania" and trust me when a doctor tells you that you have hypomania and you see yourself as normal when not depressed, you remember the word.
Psychosis is possible in BPD II but only in depression. EL does not look depressed in that video.
Lastly, the Tumblr post on meds is 10 months old; does she ever update? Getting the sweet spot med combo can take over a year. In fact EL says it took 2 years of trying different meds before she found relief with Effexor. How do we even know she was taking those same meds?
I am sure I will get serious flak for this but had to say it.
If left untreated, hypomania can transition into mania and sometimes psychosis, in which case, bipolar I disorder is often diagnosed.[8] (See also, Kindling model) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypomania#Relationship_with_disorders
(I think the italicized part is interesting as well).Lecture Outline:
Editor's Note: the following is a summary of a lecture given by Dr. Terence Ketter, Associate Professor of Psychiatry & Behavioral Sciences and Chief of the Bipolar Disorders Clinic at the Stanford University School of Medicine. Direct quotes will be indicated with quotation marks; any other text is paraphrase based on Dr. Ketter's words.
- Misdiagnosis difficulties delay proper treatment
- Similarities between schizophrenia and bipolar
- A categorical vs. a dimensional approach to psychiatric disorders
- Differences between schizophrenia and bipolar - clues to diagnosing one vs. the other
- Summary and conclusion
According to one study surveying members of the National Depression and Bipolar Support Alliance, there is an average delay of 10 years from the first onset of symptoms to correct diagnosis and treatment of psychiatric disorders. This is an immense and potentially dangerous delay - schizophrenia and bipolar disorder can easily become degenerative diseases, with more and more brain damage occuring as psychotic or mood episodes continue unabated. Dr. Ketter cited some of the major reasons for this delay between symptoms and treatment, including:
These misdiagnoses can cause years of delay to proper treatment, with potentially destructive results. Imagine, for example, treating a child who actually has pediatric bipolar disorder with ritalin for a supposed case of ADHD. Giving such a child a stimulant can lead to mood destabilization. Similarly, giving a patient in a depressive episode antidepressants (the standard treatment for unipolar depression) without a mood stabilizer will potentially destabilize someone with bipolar disorder.
- People do not realize that their experiences are out of the spectrum of normal behaviors.
- Frequent midsiagnoses (for example, misdiagnosis of bipolar as unipolar depression, or misdiagnosis of childhood-onset bipolar disorder as ADHD) delays correct treatment for the true condition.
Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are are often misdiagnosed as one another, and this is not so surprising when we consider how much the two disorders have in common. http://www.schizophrenia.com/stanfordtalks/diffdiag.html
http://www.lamag.com/features/2011/09/01/what-happened-to-mitrice-richardsonIn the parking lot Mitrice cut the engine and waited for the valet, but by the time he was ready to park her car, he found her seated in his vehicle, which was nearby with the door open. Hazel eyed, with curly locks sticking out of her Rastafarian-style hat, she wore a long-sleeved white T-shirt under a black Bob Marley tee, Vans, and fashionably distressed jeans with a pink alligator-pattern belt. The valet asked Mitrice why she was there. “It’s subliminal,” she said and muttered about avenging the death of Michael Jackson. Mitrice gave the valet her keys and, before making her way into the restaurant, asked, “Vanessa* here?”—as if he knew the person she was asking about. She said to keep an eye out for a girl with tattooed arms.
Mitrice appeared harmless, but to play it safe the valet warned the hostess she seemed pretty weird. Sitting at her table, Mitrice ordered an Ocean Breeze cocktail and a Kobe steak. She wasn’t alone for long. Drawn to the chatter coming from a table of seven, Mitrice seated herself there and tried to join the conversation, yammering unintelligibly about astrological signs. A staffer checked in with the patrons. Everything was fine, one indicated—bizarre but manageable. Though Mitrice went back to her table to eat, she returned later to jabber more. She was going to Hawaii, she announced, and would contact them when she arrived.
After the seven diners had departed, Mitrice walked toward the entrance, where the manager intercepted her and asked how she planned to pay her $89 tab. The other table should have covered her, she explained, but the manager informed her that this was not the case. “I am busted,” she said. “What are we going to do?” As the manager spoke to her, Mitrice gazed at the numerical patterns on a restaurant computer screen, as if in a trance. She told him she was from Mars and remarked about settling her debt with sex.
“I would probably wait till, you know, early this morning, and if she doesn’t turn up, you can certainly call,” Bomgardner advised. Sobbing, Latice told him that she believed her daughter to be “highly depressed” and “in a depressive state.” Bomgardner tried to soothe Latice and suggested, “Why don’t you wait a couple hours and give us some time” to make sure Mitrice wasn’t asleep in the lobby. “Then why don’t you give us a call back in a couple hours, and if she hasn’t shown up or made contact with you, then maybe we can do something for you.”
When the LAPD got ahold of journals from Mitrice’s Civic, they concluded that she’d been sleep deprived for several days and could have been suffering a bipolar episode the night of her arrest. Police also found her ATM card, checkbook, and cell phone in the car.
By then Mitrice had fallen for a Long Beach woman named Vanessa, a regular at the club where she danced. That Vanessa had a girlfriend only made Mitrice more determined to win her over. She became obsessed. One night after her go-go job, Mitrice drove solo to Las Vegas to join in Vanessa’s birthday celebration. Eventually Vanessa had to tell her to stay away. Mitrice’s behavior was becoming bizarre. She didn’t talk on the phone as much. She posted frequent musings on MySpace at all hours (“have u ever woke up 7am crying on a Saturday cuz now that u see the lite u see all the ppl lost in the dark?? welcome to my reality…”. Something was off. She’d talked to at least one friend about seeking therapy, but as far as anyone close to her knew, she’d never dealt with mental illness. As her ex-girlfriend Tessa put it, “Mitrice wanted people to think she had everything under control.”
This is a link to a good site that references many forensic pathology sources on drowning.
This one quote stood out:
If the circumstances of death are known, the diagnosis of drowning will not present any difficulty. However, when a body is found in water and no circumstantial details are available of how it got there, the case may pose a difficult problem. In some cases, the diagnosis of drowning cannot be established for lack of definite signs; hence one has to draw conclusions on the basis of exclusion of other causes of death. In such situations every detail of the case must be considered with an open mind. (Fatteh at p154)
Networked Knowledge - Medical Issues
Diagnostics of Drowning Cases.
Clearly, in the absence of any new information, we are rehashing and grating on one another's nerves. Maybe we should step back and see if there are any possible clues being over looked like why are the police shutting out the media, and why is the media so damn compliant. There is the issue of the dogs not detecting any scent on the roof. EL's "lost" cell phone and the "friend" in San Diego who gave her the Blackberry. Why did the police say they did not want to talk about her cell phone way back on February 6th, her official missing person's status date? Why hasn't this friend been identified in the media? There is a more realistically timed and cleaned up copy of the video to go over
Looking at the number of mod snips, we need to really take a deeeep breath and let it go. I am sure there is more for us to micro-analyze! :wink:
Respectfully snipped...I do not think it fair to look at a person's Tumblr site and a 2 min video and declare that she was psychotic. I have not read all of her Tumblr as I feel it disrespectful to analyze every little thing, diagnose, and label her, without really having any clue and no right to do so. If this helped the case at all then I could see, but at this point we are all spinning our wheels.
That's what I thought.I was not aware of her phone being stolen. According to Tumblr, the phone was lost at the bar, and a friend gave her a Blackberry to use.
<modsnip>
<modsnip> since no one saw anyone else going up to the roof, no one, not even the killer, went up to the roof either, correct?
<modsnip>
Snipped...And the bottom line for me is that it appears clear that LE is seriously considering the possibility that Elisa's death was related to a mental episode. And they have all the information. We don;t.
I believe they had her glasses because the family knew she didn't have her glasses with her when she went missing.