Evidence for "Dead body in the Damn Car"

[notthatsmart]

UMMMMMMMMM How about the samples that IIRC Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky claimed on NG before he was banished that Werner Spitz, M. D. took from his post at the funeral home after the remains were released or any "split samples" from the SA investigation?
And: the good Dr. Lee never mentioned in his TV post-Florida interview if HE retained any samples of his PRELIMINARY vehicular evaluation or if he requested any "split samples" from the SA investigation?

And: Just as a "food for thought note", I'm amazed that Kathy Reichs, Ph. D. was listed as an expert for the defense ASAP yet it was NEVER leaked, identified, whispered about, gossiped, "pillow-talked" or shouted from the roof tops that SHE attended the post Christmas funeral home skeleton evaluation/post mortem/evaluation of the remains, you know....her, the FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST!

Say, sounds like you have a wealth of info here. Hope you could provide some links. Is that true that Koblinsky or Spitz took samples from the funeral home? Is it true that they took split samples from SA? If so, why wouldn't Sa put that in one of their reports?

Dr Lee. What Florida interview? Link? I know of an Nancy Grace interview, but am not aware of an Florida interview? I have heard rumors that SA gave HL 3 soda cans, but have not seen that in any reports. Did I miss it somewhere?

Even if these samples were obtained, Isn't it the defense responsiblity to maintain Attorney client privildege? I'm not getting it.

Did this this Kathy R evaluate the remains? When? Help me out here, do you have any idea when, so I can try to find the links? Was anyone else present at the evalutation?

 

[notthatsmart]

So if there was such food/drink in the car that was observed microscopically, then where is the report? That would be evidence of food in the trunk and could go a long way in the defense's claim (not really, but heck, let's say for argument's sake) that the odor was nothing but smelly 'ole garbage.

I agree, where is that report? But then, where is the report that there was no food in the bag? I mean I know Yuri states it in an email, but Dr Vass quickly emailed him back asking for an inventory. Probably knew that there would normally be food in a kitchen garbage bag.

There may be a dispute, Dr Lee says there was food. There were other witnesses. I know there is a dispute over bench notes. The garage guy says he threw away his bench notes and that is allowed. Yet, I see the fbi keeps all their bench notes or at least I see hand written notes in fbi reports.

And after months of sitting in a box, what condition would any of that food be in anyway?

I woulld hope that they would scrape any food residues into petri dishes or tubes and refridgerate them. They would pour any leftover soda or juice into tubes and refridgerate them. Something to preserve the evidence. Now if there was no food, then Dr Lee is lieing on National Tv. I don't see that happening do you?

HL also said it smelled like rotten garbage.

 

[notthatsmart]

BBM


wait a minute. NOW you're saying that the squirrel story was a lie, or at least "silly speculation" not worth inspecting the frame over? What changed your mind? :waitasec:

I think you've been provided with enough links to evidence that Henry Lee was indeed going to come back and finish inspecting the car, but has not done so, for whatever reason. So what would be the reason that he wouldn't come back, when it is a fact that he intended to return?

I think what I disputed in the a different thread was that they did not allow him to come back. And I made a comment that I wished they would have let him look at that frame. But personally, I don't see any importance in the squirrel frame thing. I think the defense is perfectly happy with the smell coming from garbage bag.

Also with recent discovery, he may not need to come back and look at the frame. Experts can make decisions based on new knowledge.

 

[LambChop]

If Dr. Lee wanted to return there would be nothing stopping him. Most garbage bags with food wrappers usually do smell like garbage. It's the trunk that smells, still after all this time....it still smells like death. TL has a garbage disposal in his apartment. If there were any leftovers (and with growing boys doubtful) they most likely went down the drain.

 

[notthatsmart]

Q12.1 I would think could be identified as Caylee's because of it's very structure. Infants have finer hair than adults and Caylee's hair would not have been color treated. Experts know the difference and they clearly state the hair in the trunk has a death band. The death band portion of the hair is on a slide and has been available for inspection by defense experts. It is in their report.

I have been looking for those words "death band". I can not find them anywhere in the fbi reports. All I am seeing is dark root end. What report is that in? thanks

 

[Marina2]

I agree, where is that report? But then, where is the report that there was no food in the bag? I mean I know Yuri states it in an email, but Dr Vass quickly emailed him back asking for an inventory. Probably knew that there would normally be food in a kitchen garbage bag.

There may be a dispute, Dr Lee says there was food. There were other witnesses. I know there is a dispute over bench notes. The garage guy says he threw away his bench notes and that is allowed. Yet, I see the fbi keeps all their bench notes or at least I see hand written notes in fbi reports.

And after months of sitting in a box, what condition would any of that food be in anyway?

I woulld hope that they would scrape any food residues into petri dishes or tubes and refridgerate them. They would pour any leftover soda or juice into tubes and refridgerate them. Something to preserve the evidence. Now if there was no food, then Dr Lee is lieing on National Tv. I don't see that happening do you?

HL also said it smelled like rotten garbage.

Bold is mine.

I would think that preserving any food evidence would involve allowing it to remain in situ. Wouldn't refrigeration of any food residue kill germs that the defense may claim caused the odor? In the very least, it would change the nature of the odor. Defense dropped the ball if exculpatory food evidence was left in a box for months with no expert examination on their part.

I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that Dr. Lee lied on national television.

 

[notthatsmart]

http://www.wftv.com/news/18145599/detail.html

Was that in fact proven to be an email from Ca?

 

[recklessrex]

HL also said it smelled like rotten garbage.

GA: I’ve been around that. I mean the law enforcement stuff that I did. So I know what IT smells like. It’s a smell that you never get rid of.

GA: So that’s what I, I said. The guy said, “sir, I’ll take care of it. I’ll get rid of it.” But the SMELL NEVER WENT AWAY. When I drove around I told my wife, I said, “This car stinks so bad I can’t, I don’t know how I can drive it home.”

GA: I’m sitting here as the grandfather, as the father, as George Anthony and as a guy who SMELLED THE SMELL BEFORE years ago and you just never forget it.

GA: I believe there's something DEAD back there.

George knew that smell and it wasn't garbage. Even after the garbage was removed. Especially with his experience and having "smelled that smell before." No doubt in my mind that it was Caylee and not a small bag of garbage.

 

[cecybeans]

I would think that preserving any food evidence would involve allowing it to remain in situ. Wouldn't refrigeration of any food residue kill germs that the defense may claim caused the odor? In the very least, it would change the nature of the odor. Defense dropped the ball if exculpatory food evidence was left in a box for months with no expert examination on their part.

I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that Dr. Lee lied on national television.

Exactly. If HL thought that this was the case to repair his reputation (and the allegation was made by a person on the same defense team), I really don't think it will turn out that way. I remember he said something about ham when interviewed by the media even though no actual food was found in the garbage, just wrappers. I don't think he can afford another opportunity to further compromise his standing in the field.
http://crime.about.com/b/2007/05/25/judge-dr-henry-lee-hid-evidence.htm

I know all kinds of tests have been done to simulate the conditions of the trunk, but I have one I'd like to see. I'd like to see a lab put a cadaver in a trunk for 2 or 3 days (making sure the same amount of fluid was present when they removed it) AND later put a bag of garbage in the trunk (with all the stuff people have speculated was in AL's bag, like pizza, even though it was not). Then I'd like them to simulate the conditions of the towyard. And then find out when they opened the trunk if it smelled like garbage or like a dead body.

My guess is that whatever garbage would be there would be completely overpowered by the smell of the dead body, which would settle that argument.

 

[mydailyopinions]

If Dr. Lee wanted to return there would be nothing stopping him. Most garbage bags with food wrappers usually do smell like garbage. It's the trunk that smells, still after all this time....it still smells like death. TL has a garbage disposal in his apartment. If there were any leftovers (and with growing boys doubtful) they most likely went down the drain.

I agree!
What kind of food left in a car would still leave a smell a year later after being removed?
A dead horse?
Sorry, but Dr. Lee would have returned IF he could have helped the defense..
I'll be very surprised to see his name remain on the defense witness list..

 

[LambChop]

I have been looking for those words "death band". I can not find them anywhere in the fbi reports. All I am seeing is dark root end. What report is that in? thanks

My words not FBI. JMO means JMO. Dark root end from a decomposing body. Since less than 1% of us agree that poor Caylee's body may not have been in the trunk and some of us who do agree her body was in the trunk are apparently very knowledgeable in their fields and I would tend to trust them plus the information they offer here. The FBI reports give us a sample of what we will see the experts testifying to in court. As you can see by our poll, percentages tell you a lot and this is what will come out in the trial.

By-the-way, AL now stated on national TV that Caylee's death was not a homicide. Pretty interesting statement for her to state. No homicide would rule out SODDI. Seeing that door slam shut. So Caylee died of natual causes, an accident, what??? As always, JMO

 

[LambChop]

Exactly. If HL thought that this was the case to repair his reputation (and the allegation was made by a person on the same defense team), I really don't think it will turn out that way. I remember he said something about ham when interviewed by the media even though no actual food was found in the garbage, just wrappers. I don't think he can afford another opportunity to further compromise his standing in the field.
http://crime.about.com/b/2007/05/25/judge-dr-henry-lee-hid-evidence.htm

I know all kinds of tests have been done to simulate the conditions of the trunk, but I have one I'd like to see. I'd like to see a lab put a cadaver in a trunk for 2 or 3 days (making sure the same amount of fluid was present when they removed it) AND later put a bag of garbage in the trunk (with all the stuff people have speculated was in AL's bag, like pizza, even though it was not). Then I'd like them to simulate the conditions of the towyard. And then find out when they opened the trunk if it smelled like garbage or like a dead body.
My guess is that whatever garbage would be there would be completely overpowered by the smell of the dead body, which would settle that argument.

At the Body Farm....anything is possible.

 

[magnolia]

I have been looking for those words "death band". I can not find them anywhere in the fbi reports. All I am seeing is dark root end. What report is that in? thanks

Well, allow me to assist you NTS. Do you see the word "decomposition" in the report?

Speciman Q12-Apparent decomposition-proximal (root) end = Death Band

page 2/3329 http://blogs.discovery.com/files/18530294.pdf

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Exactly. If HL thought that this was the case to repair his reputation (and the allegation was made by a person on the same defense team), I really don't think it will turn out that way. I remember he said something about ham when interviewed by the media even though no actual food was found in the garbage, just wrappers. I don't think he can afford another opportunity to further compromise his standing in the field.
http://crime.about.com/b/2007/05/25/judge-dr-henry-lee-hid-evidence.htm

I know all kinds of tests have been done to simulate the conditions of the trunk, but I have one I'd like to see. I'd like to see a lab put a cadaver in a trunk for 2 or 3 days (making sure the same amount of fluid was present when they removed it) AND later put a bag of garbage in the trunk (with all the stuff people have speculated was in AL's bag, like pizza, even though it was not). Then I'd like them to simulate the conditions of the towyard. And then find out when they opened the trunk if it smelled like garbage or like a dead body.

My guess is that whatever garbage would be there would be completely overpowered by the smell of the dead body, which would settle that argument.

I would like to see them put a fresh (sorry) cadaver in a trunk, wrapped the way they thought Caylee was, in plastic bag, or blanket, or however, for 2.6 days, remove the body, close trunk and let sit outside in sun for 17 days, and see what the trunk smelled like, then 6 months later see what the trunk smelled like. Also would like to know if any decomp fluids leaked from this body during the 2.6 days.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

I would also like to see them remove 100 hairs from the cadaver, place them to the side, and after the 2.6 days examine the 100 hairs and see if they had postmortem banding and or signs of apparent decompostion on them.

 

[LambChop]

I would like to see them put a fresh (sorry) cadaver in a trunk, wrapped the way they thought Caylee was, in plastic bag, or blanket, or however, for 2.6 days, remove the body, close trunk and let sit outside in sun for 17 days, and see what the trunk smelled like, then 6 months later see what the trunk smelled like. Also would like to know if any decomp fluids leaked from this body during the 2.6 days.

Who is to say they haven't? They tested the pizza that way, why would they not do the same at the Body Farm. They also tested the trunk of the car with another for chloroform for comparison. It may be evidence we just have not seen yet. It would be interesting.

 

[Harmony 2]

I would also like to see them remove 100 hairs from the cadaver, place them to the side, and after the 2.6 days examine the 100 hairs and see if they had postmortem banding and or signs of apparent decompostion on them.

My brain is still half asleep, but weren't there comparisons done at the Body Farm using a toddler of Native American descent in a trunk?


ETA: LOL Like I said,my brain is stll snoozing, I just noticed I used the wrong quote. LOL
Going into lurking mode....

 

[LambChop]

I would also like to see them remove 100 hairs from the cadaver, place them to the side, and after the 2.6 days examine the 100 hairs and see if they had postmortem banding and or signs of apparent decompostion on them.

It would have to be 31 days. Not sure if all the hairs from a deceased person get the bands on them. May be something like taking a pregnacy test, if you get a minus the test could be wrong, but if you get a plus you are pregnant. May be an expert can tell us but I believe I read that in the past here.

 

[RR0004]

Doesn't it say that Q12.1 could be from Caylee or Casey? I would think if Casey coloured her hair this could account for the dark root end. Does anybody know if it did have the root on it?

...didn' they say that the hair showed signs of decomposition?

 

[RR0004]

I believe you are incorrect. The report results clearly reference that specimen Q12 exhibits apparent decomposition. Can you provide a link to support your opinion that hair color causes characteristics similar to apparent decomp?

page 2/3329 http://blogs.discovery.com/files/18530294.pdf

Thanks, Magnolia...didn't see your post.