Evidence of Torture used at Gitmo, Abu Ghraib

[angelmom]

angelmom, not to dispute that there is a possibility that the detainees are following instructions, but doesn't the article mention that examines have verified abuse?

Trino, the "verification" comes from psychologists who have "confirmed" the trauma to these 11 men (out of how many detainees?). My problems are that a) the only admitted "torture" doesn't sound like what I call torture. See my post above. It sounds like jail. I have a hard time feeling sorry for them. Now in the case of people detained for no reason, then yes that is wrong. But it does happen, even here, and in other countries all the time. Does that make Bush a war criminal? Please.
b) there is absolutely no physical proof that any of the scars or damage took place once they were in custody b/c there are no medical records predating that. They only have the word of the detainees. Could they be lying? Maybe. al-Quaeda training teaches them to lie about torture b/c they know that the American media will eat it up and the American public cannot stomach it.
c) The torture that has been "confirmed" by a doctor is by a psychologist, who can only say that these men have PTSD. Again, who is to say that it isn't from previous events? Or that they aren't lying? We know that prisoners here in the US have faked mental illness to avoid justice, so why couldn't these men? And does having PTSD mean that they were tortured? I have heard of people having PTSD from bad car accidents and other traumatic events. It doesn't mean that they were tortured.

I really don't mean to make light of a serious subject, but to paint the entire military (and the president) with a broad brush b/c of this psychologist who has decided jail is unpleasant really makes me ill. Maybe he should do a tour and then reassess the situation.

They were tortured! Believe it!

Cheney and Bush do need to be tried for war crimes and then hanged!

Whatever! :hand:s

 

[T-Rex]

There was a video on YouTube of soldiers relaxing. Two were asking a third what it had been like to serve at Abu Ghraib. He told a story of a young female captive who was gang-raped all day, until she finally hung herself. He laughed. (It was my impression the other two were setting him up, and he didn't know he was being recorded.)

 

[angelmom]

Physicians find evidence of torture.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25218584/

From your link:

Because the medical examiners did not have access to the 11 patients' medical histories prior to their imprisonment, it was not possible to know whether any of the prisoners' ailments, disabilities and scars pre-dated their confinement. The U.S. military says an al-Qaida training manual instructs members, if captured, to assert they were tortured during interrogation.

 

[Claycat]

Of course, there will always be the little disclaimer at the end, because MSNBC is main stream media, and they are totally controlled.


Whatever?

You must have voted for Bush!

 

[Karole28]

This guy knows about torture.

Click!

Re: The Bataan death march (my parents have a friend who survived this)

They didn't even want to waste bullets on us, just stabbed us to death." Those who didn't fall were forced to keep going by being beaten with razor sharp bamboo sticks or rifle butts.

Picture of the Bataan deathmarch

Suffering from dysentery, diarrhea, beriberi, and malaria, the POW's were crammed on to barges and sent to Manila. From there they were marched another 75-100 miles to POW camp Cabawon #1. All they were fed was rice and watery soup. Those that were too weak or ill to work were given even less food. At the camp, my grandfather was given a work detail of cutting lumber. He also worked in a steel factory for Mitibishi, and now he refuses to buy a Japanese made car. There were constant beatings, torturing, and arbitrary executions. The men never knew if they would live or die each day. My Grandfather still has nightmares from the expert torture he received at the hands of his Japanese captors. Because of some of the ways they tortured him he was not able to have any children. My grandfather now has two-step children, one of which is my mother. One time they tied his hands and legs together and left him in the tropical sun for 3 days, which just about killed him. Every now and then he still has flash backs and he doesn't know where he is and tries to escape. He told me, "They worked us as slave labor-loading and unloading boxcars. We stole anything we could get our hands on. If we were caught, we would get severely beaten. Some lost their life over a few grains of rice."
==========================

What is outlined in that article re: Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, is not torture.

 

[Karole28]

I am in the camp of those who believe 9/11 was an inside job and that the Mossad were involved as much as the Saudis, maybe more.

Uhh..yeah. You have fun with that.

:silenced:

 

[Karole28]

Gitmo guards often attacked by detainees

By JOHN SOLOMON, Associated Press
Monday, July 31, 2006

WASHINGTON — The prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay during the war on terror have attacked their military guards hundreds of times, turning broken toilet parts, utensils, radios and even a bloody lizard tail into makeshift weapons, Pentagon reports say.

Incident reports reviewed by The Associated Press indicate Military Police guards are routinely head-butted, spat upon and doused by "cocktails" of feces, urine, vomit and sperm collected in meal cups by the prisoners.

They’ve been repeatedly grabbed, punched or assaulted by prisoners who reach through the small "bean holes" used to deliver food and blankets through cell doors, the reports say. Serious assaults requiring medical attention, however, are rare, the reports indicate.

Click

Define torture again?

 

[ember]

I am in the camp of those who believe 9/11 was an inside job and that the Mossad were involved as much as the Saudis, maybe more.

I work for the military and am privy to things that most aren't. I have listened to the black box tapes from plane that went down in Pennsylvania. It was not Americans controlling that plane.

Those BS conspiracy theories just destroy our country from within.

Some of those hijackers may have come from Saudi Arabia but that doesn't mean that the Saudi's initialized 911.

Least we forget that President Clinton pardoned one of the guys who then thanked our country by hijacking one of those planes and in turn, brought great grief to our country.

 

[Claycat]

"None so blind as those who refuse to see!"

 

[believe09]

Gitmo guards often attacked by detainees

By JOHN SOLOMON, Associated Press
Monday, July 31, 2006

WASHINGTON — The prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay during the war on terror have attacked their military guards hundreds of times, turning broken toilet parts, utensils, radios and even a bloody lizard tail into makeshift weapons, Pentagon reports say.

Incident reports reviewed by The Associated Press indicate Military Police guards are routinely head-butted, spat upon and doused by "cocktails" of feces, urine, vomit and sperm collected in meal cups by the prisoners.

They’ve been repeatedly grabbed, punched or assaulted by prisoners who reach through the small "bean holes" used to deliver food and blankets through cell doors, the reports say. Serious assaults requiring medical attention, however, are rare, the reports indicate.

Click

Define torture again?

This is day to day in the prison system as well....so let's give corrections officers the same freedom. BTW, notice that service people brought up on charges at Abu Ghraib were former corrections officers before being brought over to Iraq...there was a plan.

The Geneva Convention clearly defines what torture is. I understand those who feel these inmates got off easily with barely defined torture. Hanoi Hilton and Bataan Death march are black and white examples-however you cannot tell me that electrocution, sodomy, stress positions, isolation and sleep deprivation are not torture. Or waterboarding. Or gang rape. Or dog bites.

Did they achieve their objectives in getting inmates to disclose information that would save the lives of the US service people and the contractors? Probably we will never know...but given the casualty count of both...hmmmmm.

 

[ember]

"None so blind as those who refuse to see!"

Ok, if you can see it...where is your proof?
Post it for all to see.
Make us a believer that 9/11 was an inside job.

I know better and have seen proof.

 

[Karole28]

Ok, if you can see it...where is your proof?
Post it for all to see.
Make us a believer that 9/11 was an inside job.

Now they're going to post that crazy chicken wire/concrete block video!

in 3-2-1

:doh:

 

[believe09]

I work for the military and am privy to things that most aren't. I have listened to the black box tapes from plane that went down in Pennsylvania. It was not Americans controlling that plane.

Those BS conspiracy theories just destroy our country from within.

Some of those hijackers may have come from Saudi Arabia but that doesn't mean that the Saudi's initialized 911.

Least we forget that President Clinton pardoned one of the guys who then thanked our country by hijacking one of those planes and in turn, brought great grief to our country.

Some?????? 11 out of 19, wasn't it or was it 15? Al Qaida and Iraq is like saying the Black Panthers work hand in hand with the Klan here in the US, but we can leave that discussion for another thread.

Clinton and Bush were not the architects of 9/11-that is way too simplistic.

Of course Americans were not in control of the planes-but what we are talking about here on this thread is whether we are torturing detainees and what we gain/lose from doing that.

 

[Karole28]

This is day to day in the prison system as well....so let's give corrections officers the same freedom. BTW, notice that service people brought up on charges at Abu Ghraib were former corrections officers before being brought over to Iraq...there was a plan.

The Geneva Convention clearly defines what torture is. I understand those who feel these inmates got off easily with barely defined torture. Hanoi Hilton and Bataan Death march are black and white examples-however you cannot tell me that electrocution, sodomy, stress positions, isolation and sleep deprivation are not torture. Or waterboarding. Or gang rape. Or dog bites.

Did they achieve their objectives in getting inmates to disclose information that would save the lives of the US service people and the contractors? Probably we will never know...but given the casualty count of both...hmmmmm.

I'm not convinced any of that happened!

Go into any prison in the US, take a "torture" poll. I'm sure those men will claim the same type of abuses.

They're fed Halal meals for G*d's sake! If you glance sideways at a Koran they'll scream for their lawyers.

 

[Rino]

Ok, if you can see it...where is your proof?
Post it for all to see.
Make us a believer that 9/11 was an inside job.

Originally Posted by Claycat
They were tortured! Believe it!

We don't need no stinkin' proof :snooty:

 

[believe09]

I'm not convinced any of that happened!

Go into any prison in the US, take a "torture" poll. I'm sure those men will claim the same type of abuses.

They're fed Halal meals for G*d's sake! If you glance sideways at a Koran they'll scream for their lawyers.

What lawyers?? What are you talking about? Detainees do not get attorneys-they are being held as enemy combatants and were about to face military tribunals with no representation.

 

[ember]

:laugh:

Now they're going to post that crazy chicken wire/concrete block video!

in 3-2-1

:doh:

You crack me up!

Some?????? 11 out of 19, wasn't it or was it 15? Al Qaida and Iraq is like saying the Black Panthers work hand in hand with the Klan here in the US, but we can leave that discussion for another thread.

Clinton and Bush were not the architects of 9/11-that is way too simplistic.

Of course Americans were not in control of the planes-but what we are talking about here on this thread is whether we are torturing detainees and what we gain/lose from doing that.

You're right...I got off track. Sorry about that but this is very touchy subject with me. I have 3 generations of military men behind me and work every day with the bravest, most unselfish men and women in the world. I have always been very patriotic so any words against my country brings my claws out.

 

[Karole28]

What lawyers?? What are you talking about? Detainees do not get attorneys-they are being held as enemy combatants and were about to face military tribunals with no representation.

Oh rlly?

U.S. Won’t Limit Detainees’ Visits With Attorneys

By WILLIAM GLABERSON
Published: May 12, 2007
The Justice Department yesterday withdrew one of its proposals to tighten restrictions on lawyers representing detainees at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, but said it would continue to press a federal appeals court for other limitations on the lawyers.

In a court filing yesterday morning, department lawyers said they were no longer asking the appeals court in Washington to limit the lawyers to three visits with detainees at the Guantánamo naval base, where about 380 men are now held.

A series of department proposals to curtail detainees’ lawyers drew wide attention and was criticized by legal groups and in Congress, with opponents saying the Bush administration was denying detainees the most rudimentary tools to challenge their confinement.

“After further consideration of this issue by the Department of Defense,” the tersely worded filing said, the government “is no longer seeking to incorporate a three-visit threshold for the number of counsel visits.”

Click!

 

[angelmom]

This is day to day in the prison system as well....so let's give corrections officers the same freedom. BTW, notice that service people brought up on charges at Abu Ghraib were former corrections officers before being brought over to Iraq...there was a plan.

The Geneva Convention clearly defines what torture is. I understand those who feel these inmates got off easily with barely defined torture. Hanoi Hilton and Bataan Death march are black and white examples-however you cannot tell me that electrocution, sodomy, stress positions, isolation and sleep deprivation are not torture. Or waterboarding. Or gang rape. Or dog bites.

Did they achieve their objectives in getting inmates to disclose information that would save the lives of the US service people and the contractors? Probably we will never know...but given the casualty count of both...hmmmmm.

Okay, this article did not mention waterboarding, gang rape or dog bites. There was one allegation, not confirmed, of sodomy. The evidence of electrocution was scars that could not be verified if it happened during or before the detention. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but just like in a court of law in the US, I want some actual evidence. We would never convict someone here on just a witness statement (especially a biased one) and no proof, so I expect the same degree of justice for our military.

Stress positions I will give you, depending on the position. Some people would call being handcuffed a stress position. If you throw feces at me, you can bet your *advertiser censored* I'm going to restrain you so you can't do it again, though.

Sleep deprivation, forced nakedness, and isolation isn't fun but I don't know if I'd call it torture. Actually it sounds like childbirth and parenting a newborn to me, but I digress. Again, no proof, except a psychologist's report. Could go either way.

 

[believe09]

:laugh:

You crack me up!






You're right...I got off track. Sorry about that but this is very touchy subject with me. I have 3 generations of military men behind me and work every day with the bravest, most unselfish men and women in the world. I have always been very patriotic so any words against my country bring my claws out.

Ditto-but that means I do not have the right to explore it's weaknesses? I would die for this country, no problem, ok unless I had to choose my children first then all bets are off maybe, but part of being a patriot is questioning...