Evidence of Torture used at Gitmo, Abu Ghraib

[ember]

We don't need no stinkin' proof :snooty:

We always need proof! And I mean good solid proof.
Claims without proof are counter productive and disruptive.
I'm a "show me the money" the kind of girl.

but again....I'm getting O/T....I better behave!

 

[believe09]

Okay, this article did not mention waterboarding, gang rape or dog bites. There was one allegation, not confirmed, of sodomy. The evidence of electrocution was scars that could not be verified if it happened during or before the detention. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but just like in a court of law in the US, I want some actual evidence. We would never convict someone here on just a witness statement (especially a biased one) and no proof, so I expect the same degree of justice for our military.

Stress positions I will give you, depending on the position. Some people would call being handcuffed a stress position. If you throw feces at me, you can bet your *advertiser censored* I'm going to restrain you so you can't do it again, though.

Sleep deprivation, forced nakedness, and isolation isn't fun but I don't know if I'd call it torture. Actually it sounds like childbirth and parenting a newborn to me, but I digress. Again, no proof, except a psychologist's report. Could go either way.

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/02/27/060227fa_fact
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080310/tuttle2
http://www.thestate.com/nationwire/story/436641.html

 

[believe09]

Oh rlly?

U.S. Won’t Limit Detainees’ Visits With Attorneys

By WILLIAM GLABERSON
Published: May 12, 2007
The Justice Department yesterday withdrew one of its proposals to tighten restrictions on lawyers representing detainees at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, but said it would continue to press a federal appeals court for other limitations on the lawyers.

In a court filing yesterday morning, department lawyers said they were no longer asking the appeals court in Washington to limit the lawyers to three visits with detainees at the Guantánamo naval base, where about 380 men are now held.

A series of department proposals to curtail detainees’ lawyers drew wide attention and was criticized by legal groups and in Congress, with opponents saying the Bush administration was denying detainees the most rudimentary tools to challenge their confinement.

“After further consideration of this issue by the Department of Defense,” the tersely worded filing said, the government “is no longer seeking to incorporate a three-visit threshold for the number of counsel visits.”

Click!

U.S. to Allow Key Detainees to Request Lawyers

14 Terrorism Suspects Given Legal Forms at Guantanamo

By Josh White and Joby Warrick
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, September 28, 2007; Page A01


Fourteen "high-value" terrorism suspects who were transferred to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, from secret CIA prisons last year have been formally offered the right to request lawyers, a move that could allow them to join other detainees in challenging their status as enemy combatants in a U.S. appellate court.
The move, confirmed by Defense Department officials, will allow the suspects their first contact with anyone other than their captors and representatives of the International Committee of the Red Cross since they were taken into custody.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/27/AR2007092702458.html

 

[Karole28]

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/02/27/060227fa_fact

Yeah, proof. Fom an unbiased source. Not something with this next to the article (alleging an internal memo)

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080310/tuttle2

Ditto for the Nation. Sample byline: McRats for McCain

http://www.thestate.com/nationwire/story/436641.html

Do a google search for Tom Lasseter. Every article is anti American military. ex (paraphrasing): "Military morale low under Bush", "More abuse at Gitmo outlined".

C'mon now. I'm not gonna bombard you with Ann Coulter articles.

 

[Rino]

What lawyers?? What are you talking about? Detainees do not get attorneys-they are being held as enemy combatants and were about to face military tribunals with no representation.

thats not so.

 

[angelmom]

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/02/27/060227fa_fact
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080310/tuttle2
http://www.thestate.com/nationwire/story/436641.html

I read all three of these. I didn't see anywhere where it said that the administration argued that dog bites, gang rape, or even waterboarding were permissable. The first article said Rumsfeld withheld judgement on waterboarding.

The big debate was how long detainees could be forced to stand - 4 hours max - when factory workers frequently stand for longer; how long they could be put in isolation or deprived of sleep; if their phobias could be exploited (fear of dogs, for example); or if they could be humiliated (forced to wear a bra or be naked). Again, I think some of our POWs would gladly change places. Not that it makes it right, but let's not forget we are at war.

And even Mr. Mora in the New Yorker article says that he feels these were patriots who, in the fear of more bodies after 9/11, got off track.

 

[Karole28]

I started the thread because I think it is a great byline to the Supreme Court's ruling on the writ of habeus corpus for these folks. My expectation is that there will be large releases of some of these prisoners prior to any documentation of evidence or charges-they will be put on a plane home, the documents will be destroyed or lost and the price of their freedom will be either their silence or being smeared as to the accuracy of what they are reporting.

JMO

Here's an example of how bad this ruling is. When one Islamic goon was managed to get access to the U.S. courts his attorney filed some discovery motions that forced our government to turn over intelligence gathering information. Contained in that information was the fact that we had been monitoring bin Laden's cell phone. Guess what happened within days? You got it. Osama's cell phone went dead. We haven't picked up on his new one yet. Good work.


(Credit, Neal Boortz)

 

[Karole28]

We always need proof! And I mean good solid proof.
Claims without proof are counter productive and disruptive.
I'm a "show me the money" the kind of girl.

but again....I'm getting O/T....I better behave!

Haditha comes to mind.

 

[ember]

Haditha comes to mind.

I had gotten off topic when I posted that....I meant I wanted proof that 9/11 was an inside job. But that's for another thread!

Haditha was horrible and unjust....no reason for killing innocent civilians....but I guess when those Marines had to endure their buddies dying, they saw red and became what they were trained to be....killing machines....it's no excuse of course......

Only our guys over there know what they go through every day. I see them come back so very haunted and have all of the resepect in the world for them, regardless of the mistakes some of them may make. I'd never want to be in their shoes but am very, very thankful for them.

 

[Karole28]

I had gotten off topic when I posted that....I meant I wanted proof that 9/11 was an inside job. But that's for another thread!

Haditha was horrible and unjust....no reason for killing innocent civilians....but I guess when those Marines had to endure their buddies dying, they saw red and became what they were trained to be....killing machines....it's no excuse of course......

Only our guys over there know what they go through every day. I see them come back so very haunted and have all of the resepect in the world for them, regardless of the mistakes some of them may make. I'd never want to be in their shoes but am very, very thankful for them.

No hon, you misunderstood. The Haditha marines are being cleared of all charges. It was a put up. Here: Click and Murtha Lied; Marines Were Tried (And Acquitted)
It's not your fault you haven't heard a lot about it, the mainstream isn't really reporting it.

I just meant, people shouldn't believe everything they hear bad about our military and our country.

 

[ember]

No hon, you misunderstood. The Haditha marines are being cleared of all charges. It was a put up. Here: Click and Murtha Lied; Marines Were Tried (And Acquitted)
It's not your fault you haven't heard a lot about it, the mainstream isn't really reporting it.

I just meant, people shouldn't believe everything they hear bad about our military and our country.

Yes, I did misunderstand. Thanks for clearing that up.

And no....I've heard nothing of that!
Why haven't we heard more about it? :banghead:
Why does our media insist on portraying us in such a poor light?!!!

I'm glad they are being cleared and admit I don't know much about the Haditha incident but I truly believe that our soldiers are good souls, for the most part, and would not do heinous things to others without strong justification.

And I agree with you that people need to think for themselves and not listen to our anti- American media!

I truly believe that if people here in America think we're doing it all wrong, they should go live in those other countries and see for theirselves that America is not all that bad!
Freedom is soooo taken for granted!

 

[Karole28]

Yes, I did misunderstand. Thanks for clearing that up.

And no....I've heard nothing of that!
Why haven't we heard more about it? :banghead:
Why does our media insist on portraying us in such a poor light?!!!

I'm glad they are being cleared and admit I don't know much about the Haditha incident but I truly believe that our soldiers are good souls, for the most part, and would not do heinous things to others without strong justification.

And I agree with you that people need to think for themselves and not listen to our anti- American media!

I think the media puts us in a bad light to put the Democrats in a better one. If we're winning in Iraq, it means Bush was right and nobody wants that (but that's for another thread)

:blowkiss:

 

[believe09]

Here's an example of how bad this ruling is. When one Islamic goon was managed to get access to the U.S. courts his attorney filed some discovery motions that forced our government to turn over intelligence gathering information. Contained in that information was the fact that we had been monitoring bin Laden's cell phone. Guess what happened within days? You got it. Osama's cell phone went dead. We haven't picked up on his new one yet. Good work.


(Credit, Neal Boortz)

Yeah-so? I mean really-we have been monitoring his phone waiting for what? perhaps I am naive when it comes to technology but surely if we were monitoring the man we could have picked him or his cell phone up....just sayin. Ya think it might have prevented some of the nonsense that just occurred in Afghanistan that is so egregious, Karzai has to threated Pakistan with military force? So hmmmmm

So if I am getting all of the follow up correctly the allegations of torture are some kind of concerted effort between the detainees and the liberal media to give the administration and our soldiers a black eye.

Got it.

 

[Karole28]

Yeah-so? I mean really-we have been monitoring his phone waiting for what? perhaps I am naive when it comes to technology but surely if we were monitoring the man we could have picked him or his cell phone up....just sayin. Ya think it might have prevented some of the nonsense that just occurred in Afghanistan that is so egregious, Karzai has to threated Pakistan with military force? So hmmmmm

Perhaps you are. Perhaps our intell was waiting for a good time to do this, only they lost their chance.
I'm just sayin'

What does Karzai's insanity have to do with this? How much do you think we need to rule Afghanistan? You don't want us in Iraq (I'm assuming) but you think we should exert complete control over Afghanistan? Which is it? What do you want?

So if I am getting all of the follow up correctly the allegations of torture are some kind of concerted effort between the detainees and the liberal media to give the administration and our soldiers a black eye.

Got it.

No, I don't think you do.

 

[believe09]

No hon, you misunderstood. The Haditha marines are being cleared of all charges. It was a put up. Here: Click and Murtha Lied; Marines Were Tried (And Acquitted)
It's not your fault you haven't heard a lot about it, the mainstream isn't really reporting it.

I just meant, people shouldn't believe everything they hear bad about our military and our country.

Now I disagree that the mainstream didn't report this, but well, this thread is not about Haditha, so I will refrain.

If the articles I submitted from various media sources were reporting about torture in Al Qaida prisons or detention centers, there would be a greater likelihood that people would be outraged on this board-I am intrigued that some of you feel that there is a spin to this story which includes you being sucked into a terrorist agenda if you acknowledge the possibility of it's accuracy. To a person, those who have objected dismissed the initial story which included intensive physical and psychological examinations of 11 random prisoners who were willing to participate. Naturally the physicians giving the examinations are not sufficiently bright enough to know that they were being used as pawns...of course they staked their reputations and released this report because they are incredibly stupid, right?

What did these physician gain by releasing their report and stating their outrage?

y'all got me head shakin here, but thank you for the opportunity to debate.

 

[Karole28]

Now I disagree that the mainstream didn't report this, but well, this thread is not about Haditha, so I will refrain.

If the articles I submitted from various media sources were reporting about torture in Al Qaida prisons or detention centers, there would be a greater likelihood that people would be outraged on this board-I am intrigued that some of you feel that there is a spin to this story which includes you being sucked into a terrorist agenda if you acknowledge the possibility of it's accuracy. To a person, those who have objected dismissed the initial story which included intensive physical and psychological examinations of 11 random prisoners who were willing to participate. Naturally the physicians giving the examinations are not sufficiently bright enough to know that they were being used as pawns...of course they staked their reputations and released this report because they are incredibly stupid, right?

What did these physician gain by releasing their report and stating their outrage?

y'all got me head shakin here, but thank you for the opportunity to debate.

Why would you suppose that we "feel that there is a spin to this story which includes us being sucked into a terrorist agenda if we acknowledge the possibility of it's accuracy"? You're making quite the supposition there that no one here has claimed.

How did releasing this harm the physician's reputations? It's not like the media (and Dems) aren't clamoring for this kind of news.

Which is exactly why you didn't hear about the Haditha marines being exonerated in the mainstream media.

 

[Rino]

Which is exactly why you didn't hear about the Haditha marines being exonerated in the mainstream media.

:slap:Already covered that, believe disagrees

 

[Karole28]

:slap:Already covered that, believe disagrees

Oh. Well, I felt it deserved more coverage. Perhaps the same amount that the original accusations against the marines got.

:slap:

 

[believe09]

Perhaps you are. Perhaps our intell was waiting for a good time to do this, only they lost their chance.
I'm just sayin'

What does Karzai's insanity have to do with this? How much do you think we need to rule Afghanistan? You don't want us in Iraq (I'm assuming) but you think we should exert complete control over Afghanistan? Which is it? What do you want?



No, I don't think you do.

Respectfully, I do get it. If this thread was not about torture, you and I could debate what Iraq has to do with Al Qaida and 9/11, but I am assuming that topic has been well covered. You do not know my feelings about Iraq and whether we should be there, so don't assume-we can discuss it on another thread.

As for your intel argument, my guess and your guess hold equal merit simply because you do not know either why BinLaden's cell phone would remain free to roam with whomever attached to it.

Why would there be hearings regarding what constitutes torture and whether the military had been given clear instructions regarding what constitutes torture if the torture was not being used? If there was not photographic evidence of such?

Here we have 11 men who claim they were subjected to such, and who were examined thoroughly by physicians who then released a report stating their allegations were true. You choose to dismiss it; I choose to be intrigued by it and appalled if this is what we have fallen to. Not because any of these guys were high level so and so's-they were released with out being charged whatsoever. One was kept for 5 years and released. These are not the bad dudes...maybe not even the junior bad dudes.

 

[Rino]

Oh. Well, I felt it deserved more coverage. Perhaps the same amount that the original accusations against the marines got.

:slap:

It'll never happen. I'm still waiting for Murtha and co. to set the record strait and apologize :silenced: