EVIDENCE - Pro and Con

[PeterThomasFan]

IF you are trying to move focus from one location to another AFTER you accidentally killed someone, then you would try to make a breadcrumb trail for LE to follow by communicating back and forth with the phone of the person you are trying to shift focus on. As a scenario:
Heather was picked up at her place by SM
They drove off and stopped and TM got in the truck (whichever one they were driving at the time)
SM and TM did something that resulted in Heather's death (on purpose or accidentally) and the M's left Heather where ever. Or one went to leave Heather where ever after they...
Went back to Heather car, one got in and drove it to PTL. The person in the truck stopped at the house to-trade up vehicles, drop something off, pick something up (like the cell phone), etc.
The one in Heather's car had Heather's phone. Both contacted each other.
The truck came by and picked up whomever was at PTL.
Everyone is looking at PTL, when the actual crime took place somewhere else.

ETA: And then there is the obvious answer that they didn't know anyone could trace them from the payphone....Heather calling the cell phone would just PROVE that she was harassing SM.

Yes. But why PTL? So close to M's.


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No cameras. Dark, private and out of the way. Known area to young adults. Known spot that Heather went to.

And it may be close as the crow flies, and probably considered differently now with more recent development, but regardless of its physical address, PTL was always considered more Garden City area and the M's house Soccastee, and really two separate places. I had not been on those specific roads in so long I had to look up how close they really were and was surprised, bc in my mind they were "worlds" apart.

BBM

I see that most of us are looking back over all of the evidence (or clues if you will) from the start. Great!

LE [still] believes that Heather was killed at PTL in 3 minutes time. Although it's possible, I don't see that happening with the info we do have.

Recently on WS, I have read several posts from other members who share similar scenarios. I think this pattern really shows some merit and promise that we may be onto something!

But, I keep getting stuck on PTL. I know the area is an opportune location but why would the M's do something to Heather or leave her car so close to their own home? And why leave a trail of circumstantial evidence with phone call records?

@south fishy - PTL is not Garden City area

 

[Surfside]

And it may be close as the crow flies, and probably considered differently now with more recent development, but regardless of its physical address, PTL was always considered more Garden City area and the M's house Soccastee, and really two separate places. I had not been on those specific roads in so long I had to look up how close they really were and was surprised, bc in my mind they were "worlds" apart.

@south fishy - PTL is not Garden City area

RSBM & BBM: Beat me to it. Not to be contentious, but as a native, neither I, nor anyone I know, considers PTL to be in or near Garden City. It's firmly planted in Socastee.

 

[PeterThomasFan]

I have been thinking this same scenario after re-looking at the calls made. Couple of things:

1. I don't think we know 100% that Heather didn't tell her roommate she told SM to come over. She may have/may not have.
2. At 3:16 - I think that could be the first call NOT made by Heather - but by someone else. REMEMBER - if SM called from the payphone - he may not have had a cell phone with him and that could've been his only way to call someone?!

What we don't know about this scenario is: Were there any cameras at her apt building? If she was hurt/killed there - no neighbors heard anything? Clearly the police believe everything went down at PTL for some reason - so what do they know we don't? If there had been any sign of anything out of the ordinary at Heathers apartment - I think it would've been presented at the 1st bond hearing?

BBM

A few scenarios:

• HE told SM to come over
• SM went to HE's apartment on his own
• HE told SM that her roommate was away and that she was alone
• SM told HE that he was alone
• SM was dropped off at HE's apartment by TM
• SM and TM both went to HE's apartment

2. - Agree!

Interview with BW:

However, Thursday night she revealed the details of her last conversation with Heather.

Warrelmann was out of town the night Heather disappeared. She said she was visiting family in Florida, but they were on the phone late at night. She said Heather was telling her about Sidney.

"She told me that he told her that he left his wife and he wanted to see her, and that he missed her and he wanted to be with her. And my immediate instinct was don't do it - don't do it. You've been doing so good. She hadn't talked to him, she hadn't talked about him," Warrelmann explained.

http://www.wmbfnews.com/story/27667487/elvis-family-attends-their-daughters-one-year-prayer-vigil

 

[NFYIAMY]

BBM

I see that most of us are looking back over all of the evidence (or clues if you will) from the start. Great!

LE [still] believes that Heather was killed at PTL in 3 minutes time. Although it's possible, I don't see that happening with the info we do have.

Recently on WS, I have read several posts from other members who share similar scenarios. I think this pattern really shows some merit and promise that we may be onto something!

But, I keep getting stuck on PTL. I know the area is an opportune location but why would the M's do something to Heather or leave her car so close to their own home? And why leave a trail of circumstantial evidence with phone call records?

@south fishy - PTL is not Garden City area

BBM!

Let's hope - that unless they have a whole lot more than they've let out -- that LE and the Solicitor's are doing this very same thing!

Question for those of you smarter than I: Since the state clearly has said their theory of the crime has Heather murdered at PTL - how big of a problem would it be if at trial - they change this to show she was killed prior to getting to PTL etc)

 

[Madeleine74]

I'm going to wait until the evidence comes out at trial. I know there's more evidence and facts than what we, the public, know about this crime. It doesn't seem like there was any disturbance at HE's apartment and whatever investigators have, they don't seem to consider that a crime scene. The wording of their arrest warrant and subsequent communiques may have been strange -- maybe since they can't pin down exactly where HE was actually murdered and she was taken from PTL they consider the last known spot (PTL) to be the crime scene so they refer to that spot since they don't have anywhere else to point to.

 

[OkieGranny]

IIRC, it was "We believe she was killed at PTL," and not "Evidence shows she was killed at PTL," wasn't it? I don't see why the prosecution would be forced to stick to that theory, if info subsequently turned up that indicated other possibilities. The defense might try to make something of it but, hey, theories change as information develops. Happens all the time, just check the Heather threads here.

How long has it been since anyone official said they think Heather was killed at PTL? It could be that their working theory has changed since the gag order came down, and we just don't know it because they haven't been allowed to tell anyone.

 

[PeterThomasFan]

I'm going to wait until the evidence comes out at trial. I know there's more evidence and facts than what we, the public, know about this crime. It doesn't seem like there was any disturbance at HE's apartment and whatever investigators have, they don't seem to consider that a crime scene. The wording of their arrest warrant and subsequent communiques may have been strange -- maybe since they can't pin down exactly where HE was actually murdered and she was taken from PTL they consider the last known spot (PTL) to be the crime scene so they refer to that spot since they don't have anywhere else to point to.

Although I would agree with you for the most part and your latter point, there doesn't always have to be a disturbance to commit a murder, IMO.

If she was choked or strangled, there wouldn't necessarily be any blood evidence. If she was overpowered immediately inside her apartment, there wouldn't necessarily be any visible disturbance.

How "tidy" was her apartment anyway? Based off of the photographs I've seen, she wasn't what I would call a "neat freak". And according to TE, her car was described as a mess.

The car was a mess, which Terry Elvis said was not out of the ordinary.
Read more here: http://www.thestate.com/2014/03/09/3315176/heather-elvis-the-communitys-daughter.html#storylink=cpy

 

[SStarr33]

Although I would agree with you for the most part and your latter point, there doesn't always have to be a disturbance to commit a murder, IMO.

If she was choked or strangled, there wouldn't necessarily be any blood evidence. If she was overpowered immediately inside her apartment, there wouldn't necessarily be any visible disturbance.

How "tidy" was her apartment anyway? Based off of the photographs I've seen, she wasn't what I would call a "neat freak". And according to TE, her car was described as a mess.

Plus, she had just moved in which would add more untidiness.

 

[New2MB]

IIRC, it was "We believe she was killed at PTL," and not "Evidence shows she was killed at PTL," wasn't it? I don't see why the prosecution would be forced to stick to that theory, if info subsequently turned up that indicated other possibilities. The defense might try to make something of it but, hey, theories change as information develops. Happens all the time, just check the Heather threads here.

How long has it been since anyone official said they think Heather was killed at PTL? It could be that their working theory has changed since the gag order came down, and we just don't know it because they haven't been allowed to tell anyone.

Anyone remember if that was stated back when they also said something about the phone data going until 6am? That could explain why they said it with some certainty- could be there is more footage to or from PTL that fit into that timeline, giving more than the 3 min we see now.

 

[SStarr33]

Anyone remember if that was stated back when they also said something about the phone data going until 6am? That could explain why they said it with some certainty- could be there is more footage to or from PTL that fit into that timeline, giving more than the 3 min we see now.

It really is impossible to know until they tell us. Remember they are allowed to lie in investigations.

 

[PeterThomasFan]

Another thing that gets me and we have yet to hear...

What is the M's actual alibi?

Were they both home all night? Couponing at a relatives? Having sex in public places throughout Horry County? What?

Typically, LE's first question to them would be, "Where were you between 1:30am and 4:00am on December the 18th, 2013?"

If they are trying to prove that they are innocent, they would say, "It wasn't us. We were home in bed sleeping!"


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[bestill]

Another thing that gets me and we have yet to hear...

What is the M's alibi?

Were they both home all night? Couponing at a relatives? Having sex in public places throughout Horry County? What?

Typically, LE's first question to them would be, "Where were you between 1:30am and 4:00am on December the 18th, 2013?"

If they were trying to prove that they are innocent, they would say, "It wasn't us. We were home in bed sleeping!"


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For real! Instead all of these family members are interjecting and offering alibi's. Of course SM did lie about the phone call, that's the first lie we know of.

 

[lovinlife83]

If I try to insert myself into TMs head, the scenarios are endless but the jealous wife rage is the one that fits best for me.

*discover hubby cheating around Halloween (not sure how it is discovered, checking his cell phone maybe)?

*began harassing unidentified phone number on his cell, make threats, etc (victim may participate in this as well)?

*find out who this person is and stalk her social media, call her at work repeatedly and try to scare her away from staying in a relationship with hubby

*scared he will still want her more, begin handcuffing him to the bed and going to/from work with him

*Still feeling insecure go on a family vacation for three weeks to guarantee he won't have contact with her and try to make him realize he loves me more

*He still seems disconnected during vacation no matter how much I try

*Return from vacation and try to be as frisky/adventurous as possible so he sees I'm just as exciting as his younger GF

*He decides to leave me anyway and calls her behind my back

*He comes back home to pack his things and SHE calls his phone - I catch him speaking to her and begging her to meet him at ptl to talk about it since she seems hesitant. I snap

* pull out gun and ....

This is where I'm split
Option a -
tell him were going to ptl, he doesn't want to cause a scene and wake the kids so he listens

*arrive at ptl, h exits her car I get out planning to scare her but go too far

* frantically enter cover up mode

Option b
*handcuff hubby to bed - he stays quiet so children don't wake up

* go to ptl alone and deal with H

* get a family member to help me cover it up

*Go to Bilo and purchase bleach, Drano or other necessary items

Imo

 

[tabinmaine]

I don't know about you guys... but usually when someone has to get up and go to work in the early morning.(SM was a contractor)...is over the age of 30 and has small kids at home..... they are NOT out in the middle of the week at 3am having sex in random places with their spouse.... just my 2 cents...

 

[cujenn81]

Although I would agree with you for the most part and your latter point, there doesn't always have to be a disturbance to commit a murder, IMO.

If she was choked or strangled, there wouldn't necessarily be any blood evidence. If she was overpowered immediately inside her apartment, there wouldn't necessarily be any visible disturbance.

How "tidy" was her apartment anyway? Based off of the photographs I've seen, she wasn't what I would call a "neat freak". And according to TE, her car was described as a mess.

I also wonder if LE has considered her apartment a real possibility despite believing PTL was ultimately the crime scene (they might be leaning towards PTL because they don't have camera footage from the apartment but do have footage of the M's truck driving in the direction of PTL around the same time her phone was communicating w/ his phone).

If I think back to what I remember from the time period right after HE went missing... I mostly remember the huge missing banners that were posted by the train tracks near her apartment. And I remember the huge command post and search rescue that took place on a secluded road right near her place, as well.


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[bestill]

If I try to insert myself into TMs head, the scenarios are endless but the jealous wife rage is the one that fits best for me.

*discover hubby cheating around Halloween (not sure how it is discovered, checking his cell phone maybe)?

*began harassing unidentified phone number on his cell, make threats, etc (victim may participate in this as well)?

*find out who this person is and stalk her social media, call her at work repeatedly and try to scare her away from staying in a relationship with hubby

*scared he will still want her more, begin handcuffing him to the bed and going to/from work with him

*Still feeling insecure go on a family vacation for three weeks to guarantee he won't have contact with her and try to make him realize he loves me more

*He still seems disconnected during vacation no matter how much I try

*Return from vacation and try to be as frisky/adventurous as possible so he sees I'm just as exciting as his younger GF

*He decides to leave me anyway and calls her behind my back

*He comes back home to pack his things and SHE calls his phone - I catch him speaking to her and begging her to meet him at ptl to talk about it since she seems hesitant. I snap

* pull out gun and ....

This is where I'm split
Option a -
tell him were going to ptl, he doesn't want to cause a scene and wake the kids so he listens

*arrive at ptl, h exits her car I get out planning to scare her but go too far

* frantically enter cover up mode

Option b
*handcuff hubby to bed - he stays quiet so children don't wake up

* go to ptl alone and deal with H

* get a family member to help me cover it up

*Go to Bilo and purchase bleach, Drano or other necessary items

Imo

BBM...tell me more about this please, did this happen?

 

[GodsGirlE]

Has it ever been stated BY LE where SM's phone was during that payphone call, or have they stated whether or not they have any geolocation of his phone during the 1:36 a.m. call?

I think the location of SM AND TM's phone during this 1:36 am payphone call is a very important piece of information. We know where SM was at that time--on a payphone talking to Heather (corroborated by video at the payphone and through HE's phone records). We know at least a snippet of what was discussed between HE & SM during this call--SM wanted HE back in his life (according to BW's accounting of her phone convo with HE). Where the two cellphones are located during this time will tell us quite a bit about what unfolded over the next 2+ hours of that night and possibly fill in a little more of the breadcrumb trail for all of us. Forgive me if I'm being Captain Obvious on this...I'm not much of a sleuther and I've rarely interjected my thoughts since I registered almost a year ago, but what can I say? This case has sucked me in.

 

[rtjedarling]

She told me that he told her that he left his wife and he wanted to see her, and that he missed her and he wanted to be with her. And my immediate instinct was don't do it - don't do it. You've been doing so good. She hadn't talked to him, she hadn't talked about him," Warrelmann explained.

from what BW said sounds like he wanted to see Heather that night, right away even. Maybe he was coming over or Heather was to meet him somewhere. Guess LE knows if those calls from Heather's to SMs phone when it was answered at the Ms and there was a 4 min convo, that Heather's phone was in the vicinity of her apartment. How exact can they pin point the phone location. Could Heather have driven somewhere to meet SM, or somewhere with him. Sounds like it would be convenient for him to meet her at the apt though. Likely TM knew where Heather was staying. Because someone answered SMs phone and there was a 4 min convo doesn't mean it was TM or SM, or they could have been together or done something to Heather together and one had driven back home. I wonder if SM actually did the deed or TM had him do it rather than her. Her behavior appears like she is the savior for her dumb, wayward husband, who did this cheating thing and then offed his girl, and now I, the great and wonderful TM have to handle everything- bond him out, take him home, open the door for him to get in the car, get us off (but he really killed her, not me)- make sure he knows "who loves you baby" and "who's your mama." He certainly has seemed to comply with everything down to his smiling face and tatted belly. In her delusional mind she is really in her element now. She's far from stupid but I bet she does something outlandish yet that makes things worse for her. I think she can hardly help herself. Look at the outlandish stuff she put on social media and I haven't looked at the facebook stuff but sounds like rather than trying to calm her family, tell them to quiet down which would be the smartest thing, doesn't look like she's doing that. So I don't think it will be too long before she messes up.

If I were LE I would try to monitor the social media stuff because obviously this judge hates it and causing issues there would likely get her in trouble.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

If I try to insert myself into TMs head, the scenarios are endless but the jealous wife rage is the one that fits best for me.

*discover hubby cheating around Halloween (not sure how it is discovered, checking his cell phone maybe)?

*began harassing unidentified phone number on his cell, make threats, etc (victim may participate in this as well)?

*find out who this person is and stalk her social media, call her at work repeatedly and try to scare her away from staying in a relationship with hubby

*scared he will still want her more, begin handcuffing him to the bed and going to/from work with him

*Still feeling insecure go on a family vacation for three weeks to guarantee he won't have contact with her and try to make him realize he loves me more

*He still seems disconnected during vacation no matter how much I try

*Return from vacation and try to be as frisky/adventurous as possible so he sees I'm just as exciting as his younger GF

*He decides to leave me anyway and calls her behind my back

*He comes back home to pack his things and SHE calls his phone - I catch him speaking to her and begging her to meet him at ptl to talk about it since she seems hesitant. I snap

* pull out gun and ....

This is where I'm split
Option a -
tell him were going to ptl, he doesn't want to cause a scene and wake the kids so he listens

*arrive at ptl, h exits her car I get out planning to scare her but go too far

* frantically enter cover up mode

Option b
*handcuff hubby to bed - he stays quiet so children don't wake up

* go to ptl alone and deal with H

* get a family member to help me cover it up

*Go to Bilo and purchase bleach, Drano or other necessary items

Imo

This. +1

SM could very well have been cuffed to the bed and TM did this herself. moo

Hell hath no fury angle is strong with this one.


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[Syttende]

I agree. I've never really understood why everyone zoomed in on TM so quickly. Evidence unknown to us at this time may point to her, but from what we have seen I don't see why she is being or has been seen as the most likely one behind Heather's murder/disappearance (though I do believe she is no longer alive). I stopped posting for a while in the threads in part because I was definitely in the minority in those thoughts. Perhaps I still am, but cases have a way to suck you back in again.

I've no reason not to think SM isn't just another Scott Peterson who devised his own plan, but took out his mistress instead of his wife.

-snipped by me for brevity-

What I keep coming back to in this case is motive. Before DNA evidence ever existed in all its glory, motive was more of a concern in proving who committed a crime. Who had reason to kill Heather? Obviously, TM and SM have very, very strong motive. That's something you simply can't argue with. No one else in the world had as much reason to kill Heather as these two did.

SM is a liar and not just an accomplice to the crimes committed, but an active player. TM is psycho, sure, but SM is a piece of work. To lie about so many phone calls and pretend payphones don't even exist... even having an affair as a married man with kids, while relatively common, is pretty damning to me. He's obviously manipulative and deceptive. I don't see why TM is often portrayed here as the 'main' player in these crimes who just dragged poor SM along. He lured HE to PTL to kill her! He did that, NOT TM.