Evidence subject to Frye - *UPDATED* 2011.05.09 (ATTN: ALL ORDERS IN!)

[ZsaZsa]

But, what would Yuri be testifying about at a Frye Hearing? Yes, this is :loser: behavior from Baez - but what does he want Yuri there for?

Probably doesn't need him at all,but just thinks it's amusing to tie him up for several days and keep him hanging around. SSDD.

 

[logicalgirl]

Maybe Yuri is an expert on the smell of decomp? Or Baez is going after Yuri because Baez is afraid he is? :waitasec:

I wish we had Scamperoo's icon that is a smiley constantly banging on an ignore button. I think I'm going to need it a lot in the time up to the trial. :banghead:

 

[karengo]

Is it possible he is calling him as a witness so he cant sit in the court room? Nothing would surprise me with them.

 

[strawberry]

Maybe Yuri is an expert on the smell of decomp? Or Baez is going after Yuri because Baez is afraid he is? :waitasec:

I wish we had Scamperoo's icon that is a smiley constantly banging on an ignore button. I think I'm going to need it a lot in the time up to the trial. :banghead:

He is a detective of decomposition. I did notice at the bond hearing he testified that the odor was one of "decomposition" and some people noted that he did not say "human decomposition."

 

[ynotdivein]

Of course I cannot find an exact post where she opines this, but AZlawyer does seem pretty sure that the jury will not be taken on a field trip to smell the car. Here's a post where she addresses the odor--will keep looking for the one in particular I'm thinking of where she outlined her reasons specifically why IHO the jury's noses won't get near the car:

LE is expected to preserve the evidence without being asked, and the SA may not be permitted to use certain evidence if other evidence is not preserved. However, in this case there are some obvious questions, including (1) was the smell of the garbage "evidence" at all, and (2) is it possible to "preserve" a smell anyway? LE trapped and tested the gasses emitting from the trunk liner, and also trapped and tested the air from the trash bag. LE still has the can containing a piece of the trunk liner, but as JB's motion points out, that can doesn't really "smell like the trunk" at this point--it smells like the gasses that have emitted from that little piece of the trunk liner. So LE really didn't, and couldn't, "preserve" the trunk smell. In which case, why would anyone expect LE to "preserve" the trash bag smell?

JB's motion seems to assume that the SA intended to have the jury smell the can containing the bit of trunk liner as "evidence" of the decomp smell. I personally doubt that was the strategy. I suspect that the evidence of the smell was and is going to be the testimony of Yuri, the tow yard guy, Cindy and George. Similarly, all those same people can testify about the smell of the trash.



The jury would not get to hear testimony from the bond hearing. Just because something was allowed at the bond hearing does not mean it has to be allowed at trial.

IIRC, JB was asking to exclude ALL references to the smell. I assume that includes Yuri's opinion, expert or not.

 

[logicalgirl]

He is a detective of decomposition. I did notice at the bond hearing he testified that the odor was one of "decomposition" and some people noted that he did not say "human decomposition."

Yes, you are right - I remember that also.

However, I wish Baez would give up his grudge against Yuri Melich. YM is far too clever and knowledgeable for Baez to box him in.

"Could you define human decomp for me Mr. Baez" - LOL - I love the way Yuri answers him! :great:

 

[Turnadot]

IIRC everyone who has actually smelled this car has said the same thing- it smells like human decomposition..... including ICA's family.

I've not disputed that; I just think a jury shouldn't be made to smell it. And my experience is that it's a gamble on whether or not a person will instantly know what they're smelling is a dead human - I've never interviewed anyone who did and I've interviewed a lot of people, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there. The real issue for me is I think making a jury smell the trunk would cross an ethical line. But it's neither here nor there because it comes down to judicial proceedings and HHJP may disagree with me. That's fine. He's the expert on these matters, not me.

 

[LolaMoon08]

I'm not an expert either, but I've written plenty of crime fiction and spoken to heaps of people who have had the unfortunate experience of finding a dead body; hidden in the bushes, under a car, in a garage - none of those people related the smell to a dead human - only that the smell made them sick and was like nothing they had ever smelled before. But I'm certainly willing to concede there are people who just knew instantly they were smelling a dead body and I just haven't met them yet.

The smell may not be as strong after three years, but I still believe it would be unusually cruel to make a jury sniff the trunk, because even if it's not as strong, it's a smell that lingers with you. With the added knowledge that the body was an innocent baby, it will really screw with the juries heads, imo. Those poor people are going to have to endure so much already. Making them smell the decomp of a dead baby is crossing an ethical line.

Of course these are just my opinions. I'm not an expert on anything at all, so there you go.

BBM - I agree 100%. I can't even imagine. They are going to be viewing pictures of Caylee that we will never get to see. They will see the pictures of Caylee's remains as they were found... duct tape and all. It's going to stay with them for the rest of their lives. I think the totality of everyone smelling that car and their intial reactions, no matter what Cindy and George say now, will be enough for a jury to understand that the smell was that of decomposition. The cadaver dogs alerting to the decomposition simply backs up these intial reactions. I don't know if the air samples will come in, but if the hair banding comes in (I think it will), I think it will be enough for the jury to understand that Caylee was, in fact, decomposing in that trunk.

 

[logicalgirl]

BBM - I agree 100%. I can't even imagine. They are going to be viewing pictures of Caylee that we will never get to see. They will see the pictures of Caylee's remains as they were found... duct tape and all. It's going to stay with them for the rest of their lives. I think the totality of everyone smelling that car and their intial reactions, no matter what Cindy and George say now, will be enough for a jury to understand that the smell was that of decomposition. The cadaver dogs alerting to the decomposition simply backs up these intial reactions. I don't know if the air samples will come in, but if the hair banding comes in (I think it will), I think it will be enough for the jury to understand that Caylee was, in fact, decomposing in that trunk.

Agree - and hasn't AZ or Joypath or one of our experts already stated there is no way the jury would be asked to smell the trunk because they have no previous "reference" to know what they were smelling was "human decomp" and could only understand it was something "awful".

 

[strawberry]

Yes, you are right - I remember that also.

However, I wish Baez would give up his grudge against Yuri Melich. YM is far too clever and knowledgeable for Baez to box him in.

"Could you define human decomp for me Mr. Baez" - LOL - I love the way Yuri answers him! :great:

Maybe he wants a re-do!!

I wonder how GA and CA will handle all the testimony about odor, and plant growth through bones.

 

[watergirl]

That link isn't working...

ETA: I found it- Baez is being a jerk as usual, trying to mess with YM. Apparently he wants to tie up YM for the three days of the hearings, and YM has other work to do. so the OCSO have tried to negotiate with JB as to setting times when he's actually needed, or having him on-call but Baez doesn't seem to have learned his lesson and is still acting like an azz.

Especially after the way YM totally thwarted/publicly spanked JB and his futile attempts to pin him down on the stand during the evidentiary hearings.

:laugh:
Define suspicious.

JB is so immature. :loser:

 

[LolaMoon08]

Maybe he wants a re-do!!

I wonder how GA and CA will handle all the testimony about odor, and plant growth through bones.

They won't handle it at all. Either Judge Perry will make sure they are not allowed to be in the courtroom, or if they are allowed, they will walk out of the courtroom.

 

[ynotdivein]

Another post where AZ opines on the smell/odor analysis, last line BBM:

No, no, I just think the Body Farm odor analysis is likely to be tossed out. Actually I sort of hope it will be tossed out because I don't think it's THAT important to the State's case, but I think it will make a great appeal issue if HHJP lets it in.

IMO the science behind the odor analysis is fascinating and quite likely to be valid, but the database of chemicals identified as "decomp" chemicals has not been subject to the kind of peer-reviewable and extensive validation testing necessary to determine whether those chemicals actually indicate the presence of human decomposition. In other words, there's no question that the chemicals were THERE--the question is what they MEAN. Single comparisons like "we found some of the same chemicals in this one other case of a decomposing child in a trunk" are great for developing a HYPOTHESIS to be tested but are not sufficient for drawing a scientific CONCLUSION to be used to convict someone of murder.

Wasn't the motion to exclude all mention of the "smell" a separate motion? I think that motion will be denied. The fact that someone who has smelled human decomp before recognized the same smell in Casey's trunk is highly relevant and is not "scientific" evidence subject to a Frye analysis.

 

[Oakley]

That link isn't working...

ETA: I found it- Baez is being a jerk as usual, trying to mess with YM. Apparently he wants to tie up YM for the three days of the hearings, and YM has other work to do. so the OCSO have tried to negotiate with JB as to setting times when he's actually needed, or having him on-call but Baez doesn't seem to have learned his lesson and is still acting like an azz.

Mr Melich really did quite an impressive job of thwarting Jose in his line of questioning at the last hearing. Too bad Jose seems to have forgotten his "sincere apology" to the prosecution. He really does appear to take things personally, and want to go for the jugular (Kathi B.) :cow:

 

[Oakley]

Watergirl, just read your post upthread now. Funny, we said essentially the same thing!

 

[Cross Creek]

I can't wait til the trial to see them in action! And for that poor little baby Caylee to get justice.

 

[Solace]

Mr Melich really did quite an impressive job of thwarting Jose in his line of questioning at the last hearing. Too bad Jose seems to have forgotten his "sincere apology" to the prosecution, it seems. He really does appear to take things personally, and want to go for the jugular (Kathi B.) :cow:

He annialated Baez. Literally. Baez lied in his questioning and Yuri called him on it and never got testy, Baez did. Baez got flustered when Yuri said explain what you mean by this or this and Baez did not expect it and said well I will just rephrase. Yes Jose, rephrase. That is a good idea.

Yuri was outstanding.

 

[watergirl]

They won't handle it at all. Either Judge Perry will make sure they are not allowed to be in the courtroom, or if they are allowed, they will walk out of the courtroom.

It will be interesting to see if they are allowed in. They aren't testifying, are they? I bet you are right if they are though, there will undoubtedly be drama. If they are gonna get to attend, they have to learn how to either behave or fake it enough to keep the privilege. My money is on GA to stand up and yell at whoever is on the stand or something equally theatrical. :clap:

 

[strawberry]

It will be interesting to see if they are allowed in. They aren't testifying, are they? I bet you are right if they are though, there will undoubtedly be drama. If they are gonna get to attend, they have to learn how to either behave or fake it enough to keep the privilege. My money is on GA to stand up and yell at whoever is on the stand or something equally theatrical. :clap:

Like: If you say remains one more time, or flip me the bird again, SIR, I'll throw you through a plate glass window!! You opened the door!!

 

[watergirl]

Watergirl, just read your post upthread now. Funny, we said essentially the same thing!

As did logicalgirl (#166). I saw hers after I replied too. Funny.
JB has the transparency of tissue paper.