Evidence That is Incompatible With an Accident Theory

[logicalgirl]

Oh, I know logicalgirl. Just on a roll today. It's like you are the "straight man" and I just go off on que. The duct tape is the biggest red flag for it not being an accident. Sorry, you just do not do that to a child you love. Anyone who would want to harm a child would not wrap the child in her own blanket, that is a "Mommy Dearest" thing. It's a "marker" for it being the mother, that and water. It would be subconcscious not something a Mom would be aware that she is doing. This, I'm sure, will also be brought out in court by the experts. It is what it is.

Keep those great posts coming because there are some great points made here from you and many others. Thanks

JMO

Back at you my friend and thank you.LOL - Straight man eh? :blowkiss:

 

[LambChop]

Yep. I love it when I can vent my frustration and everyone inspires me with their logic. There is truth out there and I am sure we will find it. How sad we have to keep reminding people the child had duct tape covering her face. There is no reason for duct tape to completely cover a child's face. Sending a message it's a kidnapping with duct tape on the mouth is one thing. To do the whole face tells me her killer was trying to take Caylee's identity away from her. Now who do we know that felt Caylee was getting too much attention from others. "JG loves Caylee more than me, Caylee, Caylee all everyone one wants to talk about is Caylee." And the real kicker is the day Caylee was last seen alive KC walks into Blockbuster that night glued to TL's side and picks out two movies about kidnapping with body in a trunk and duct taping the victum. What grieving, ugly coping mother would do that......maybe one that was a "spiteful b*t*h" I would imagine. Just my ugly coping opinion!!!!!

 

[sharpar]

I dont see one bit of evidence this was an accident -
31 days and duct tape are insurmountable -
No way is jury going to buy defense fanasty on this one

 

[JBean]

Whoa! You took what I said and went way way off into left field with it my friend! LOL! I realize Casey could have been charged with negligent homicide if she'd fessed up and explained what had happened - but did she know that? Right then as that baby's face was being taped? Right then when the body was chucked into the bush a block away from her home? Was she really thinking I'd better take care of this because I'll be charged with a felony homicide if I don't? So she chose kidnapping instead?

I don't think this girl has a logical brain in her head because if she did she would have followed that thought through and weighed the consequences- hmm - If they find out I actually did this accidently vs if LE finds out there was no kidnapping - which has the worst punishment? And she has had ample opportunity to consult with counsel after she was charged with murder and the other six counts.

My point is this case has been going on for two years. She's had time to weigh and balance - as her counsel has. There is no logic at all in coming back in what will be three years down the road and saying IT WAS AN ACCIDENT. Won't the whole judicial system rise up and say why have you been wasting our valuable time and the taxpayers money? What is the answer to that?

Sorry!
I was just responding to why it would make sense to cover an accident and why she wouldn't change her story at this point. Changing her story would probably afford little to no benefit. IMO.
left field<----------------Jbean :wave:

 

[logicalgirl]

Yep. I love it when I can vent my frustration and everyone inspires me with their logic. There is truth out there and I am sure we will find it. How sad we have to keep reminding people the child had duct tape covering her face. There is no reason for duct tape to completely cover a child's face. Sending a message it's a kidnapping with duct tape on the mouth is one thing. To do the whole face tells me her killer was trying to take Caylee's identity away from her. Now who do we know that felt Caylee was getting too much attention from others. "JG loves Caylee more than me, Caylee, Caylee all everyone one wants to talk about is Caylee." And the real kicker is the day Caylee was last seen alive KC walks into Blockbuster that night glued to TL's side and picks out two movies about kidnapping with body in a trunk and duct taping the victum. What grieving, ugly coping mother would do that......maybe one that was a "spiteful b*t*h" I would imagine. Just my ugly coping opinion!!!!!

Yes, the duct tape and her immediate behavior that night with Tony are the kicker for me. It's the timing of the appication that is so freaky. If it didn't cause her death, it was applied almost immediately after. I keep running scenarios through my head to try to make sense. Casey says to herself - OMG what have I done - no, no no, come back my sweetchild. Right after that she says sleep well baby, we don't want the bugs to get you, here's some tape for your nose and mouth and here's a heart sticker as my last kiss - bundle up and into the trunk - sorry to rush off but I have a date tonight? HUH?

Sorry to offend anyone by my description but really - does it work for you?

 

[LambChop]

Yes, the duct tape and her immediate behavior that night with Tony are the kicker for me. It's the timing of the appication that is so freaky. If it didn't cause her death, it was applied almost immediately after. I keep running scenarios through my head to try to make sense. Casey says to herself - OMG what have I done - no, no no, come back my sweetchild. Right after that she says sleep well baby, we don't want the bugs to get you, here's some tape for your nose and mouth and here's a heart sticker as my last kiss - bundle up and into the trunk - sorry to rush off but I have a date tonight? HUH?

Sorry to offend anyone by my description but really - does it work for you?

No offense. Only thing missing is that KC may have told Caylee after stuffing her in the trunk that KC would forego the popcorn while at Blockbusters. I mean it's the least a Mom can do, right, when you just lost a child. This was not a neighbor's child, a friend's child, a child you have seen on TV. This was her child, her very own child and yet she expresses to this day her frustration that someone would love Caylee more than her (at least that is how KC see it). Bet those boys of her's will only refer to Caylee as "it" in front of her. The psychologists will have a field day. JMO

 

[ZsaZsa]

Yes, the duct tape and her immediate behavior that night with Tony are the kicker for me. It's the timing of the appication that is so freaky. If it didn't cause her death, it was applied almost immediately after. I keep running scenarios through my head to try to make sense. Casey says to herself - OMG what have I done - no, no no, come back my sweetchild. Right after that she says sleep well baby, we don't want the bugs to get you, here's some tape for your nose and mouth and here's a heart sticker as my last kiss - bundle up and into the trunk - sorry to rush off but I have a date tonight? HUH?

Sorry to offend anyone by my description but really - does it work for you?

WE had a thread a long while back (09) as to whether the placement of several layers of wide duct tape AFTER death would have any purpose, or would be accepted in Florida courts as being a feasible defense. I do not recall the particular case to cite from , but smart WS ers will hopefully show up and quote it chapter and verse. There is legal precedent that it is not acceptable.

 

[notthatsmart]

Whoa! You took what I said and went way way off into left field with it my friend! LOL! I realize Casey could have been charged with negligent homicide if she'd fessed up and explained what had happened - but did she know that? Right then as that baby's face was being taped? Right then when the body was chucked into the bush a block away from her home? Was she really thinking I'd better take care of this because I'll be charged with a felony homicide if I don't? So she chose kidnapping instead?

I don't think this girl has a logical brain in her head because if she did she would have followed that thought through and weighed the consequences- hmm - If they find out I actually did this accidently vs if LE finds out there was no kidnapping - which has the worst punishment? And she has had ample opportunity to consult with counsel after she was charged with murder and the other six counts.

My point is this case has been going on for two years. She's had time to weigh and balance - as her counsel has. There is no logic at all in coming back in what will be three years down the road and saying IT WAS AN ACCIDENT. Won't the whole judicial system rise up and say why have you been wasting our valuable time and the taxpayers money? What is the answer to that?

I think the answer to that is "not having to give up the defense strategy" I think it is legal. They are not required to say anything. They are not required to prove anything. It is the states burden to prove what happened. So, they probably have the right to present it as an accident at trial. As far as taxpayer money goes, anyone is welcome to write their congressman and try to get the constitution changed. If anyone feels we have too many rights as citizens, they should write to their congressman, start a grass roots movement.

I myself am perfectly happy with the rights that we have. IMO

 

[LambChop]

But there is no blood to be compromised....there is no DNA to be compromised, there is no body to be compromised. There are bones that only prove no abuse. There is a skull with duct tape wrapped around to the back of the skull holding the matted hair in place. Plants growing through the bones...hard to compromise that. Blanket, tape, bag, trash bags all weathered to prove they were not recently planted. So how is it possible to compromise. KC is not OJ. No one is going to ask her to put on a glove. No one threw a dead body in KC's trunk and no one but the killer put the body where it was found. Interestingly, CA and GA upon hearing Caylee was missing and smelling the trunk went INTO the backyard to search for their dead granddaughter. Looking under the playhouse and around the yard.......Did they smell something earlier in the month that did not sit right with them and upon smelling the trunk thought they needed to check the backyard????? I mean why the backyard?? They admitted doing it. Something made them go back and check the yard and I bet it was an earlier smell they detected but will never admit, well except in court if that question is asked because they would have to tell the truth at that point. JMO

 

[ZsaZsa]

I hope they pick a jury fairly and within the scope of the law. I suppose thats why jury selection is random, and both sides get to question and select.

I just want to say that even with all this evidence against Casey, I can not get past the flurry of calls or the dogs hitting in the backyard. I think I may be able to convict if the consequence was not death.

I have no doubt she is responsible for her daughter Caylees death but I believe due to neglect NOT premeditated murder. I appreciate all your thoughts and all the proof you have collected in this thread, and yet I still could not put her to death. Too many things are just not consistent or known to be fact in this case.

This is of course just my opinion.

They will select a Jury that will be able to implement the DP though... since that is the punishment that is deemed appropriate for her crime.

 

[LambChop]

WE had a thread a long while back (09) as to whether the placement of several layers of wide duct tape AFTER death would have any purpose, or would be accepted in Florida courts as being a feasible defense. I do not recall the particular case to cite from , but smart WS ers will hopefully show up and quote it chapter and verse. There is legal precedent that it is not acceptable.

I'm not sure but memory tells me it was in "Huck". Or it could be another one, but judge ruled that the duct tape placed after death would not have any purpose. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thanks

 

[ZsaZsa]

I'm not sure but memory tells me it was in "Huck". Or it could be another one, but judge ruled that the duct tape placed after death would not have any purpose. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thanks

Oh, you came up with it !
Great!
I was just googling and it was #1 on the search list :innocent:
It is Huck and here is a report:-
http://www.romingerlegal.com/floridacourts/court_opinions2/5D03-1906.op.html

It also has a lot of interesting comments regarding Expert Opinion of the Medical Examiners in the case.... it would be an excellent reference for us laypersons, the next time someone thinks there is a weakness in the fact that a Pathologist does not state with 100% certainty that something happened... this is very enlightening as to why that is not possible, and not done.

 

[ZsaZsa]

I think the answer to that is "not having to give up the defense strategy" I think it is legal. They are not required to say anything. They are not required to prove anything. It is the states burden to prove what happened. So, they probably have the right to present it as an accident at trial. As far as taxpayer money goes, anyone is welcome to write their congressman and try to get the constitution changed. If anyone feels we have too many rights as citizens, they should write to their congressman, start a grass roots movement.

I myself am perfectly happy with the rights that we have. IMO

Would an innocent person stay mute for 2-3 years before going to court?
All the defense has said to date as far as I'm aware, is that all will be understood at the time of trial.
If I were an innocent person sitting in jail I would be proclaiming my innocence.

 

[flourish]

Perfect. Sounds very logical.

Many of us, including the experts, look at what is in the reports as "logical". Other only see what a "skeptic" would see needing the information right down to 100% certainty. Life is not like that. Nothing is 100% certain except death. No one will live forever on this plane of existence. Let's hope the jury has people who use their logic and keep an open mind instead of insisting on perfection in a not so perfect crime. SA will say the most logical person is the mother. Defense will say the most logical person is from "fairyland" or mom and it was an accident. JMO

Most respectfully bolded, italicized, and underlined by me, for emphasis

When sending someone to their death for a premeditated crime, "beyond reasonable doubt" is not "skepticism" in my personal opinion.

If I may be so bold, I think that Lambchop was referring to people who want things to be stated with 100% certainty, which is just not gonna happen with most things in life. Being skeptical and being deliberately obtuse are two different things, you're right. IMHO, most people around here welcome skepticism as it helps us explore and define possible issues with the case. However, many of us do not welcome unreasonable expectations of 100% certainty being labeled as "skepticism."

Not being snotty here, just trying to bring clarity.

 

[LambChop]

I can't see defense not saying anything even though they continue to say there is no evidence linking KC to her daughter. But that very statement makes no sense. Caylee WAS her daughter and depended on her mother to protect her and the law requires KC to do so. To say there is no link???

Moving on the evidence is the remains of her child wrapped in a blanket from the house, with duct tape on the child's face consistent with rare duct tape from the house, in two trash bag similar to what was in the household at the time, and a designer laundry bag which is similar to one from the household. Then we have a mother who's child is reported missing from someone other than her who refuses to give LE any truthful information regarding the whereabouts of her child, blaming someone else and they must have her. If defense nit picks too much they will lose for sure, if they don't do enough they will lose for sure. It's like going to Foxwoods and expecting to win. Big gamble defense considering someone's life is on the line. This has never been an SA problem it is clearly a defense problem and for them to say anything differently is to have their heads buried in the sand. JMO

 

[nort]

Is there a thread to dicuss what Caseys parents believe happened. I would love to get input on what WS people think they are buying.

 

[LambChop]

Most respectfully bolded, italicized, and underlined by me, for emphasis



If I may be so bold, I think that Lambchop was referring to people who want things to be stated with 100% certainty, which is just not gonna happen with most things in life. Being skeptical and being deliberately obtuse are two different things, you're right. IMHO, most people around here welcome skepticism as it helps us explore and define possible issues with the case. However, many of us do not welcome unreasonable expectations of 100% certainty being labeled as "skepticism."

Not being snotty here, just trying to bring clarity.

Oh flourish, I think they were agreeing with me. At least that is the way I took it. Some people just want 100%. I want to be J Lo....not going to happen. Not in a real world. LOL

 

[LambChop]

Is there a thread to dicuss what Caseys parents believe happened. I would love to get input on what WS people think they are buying.

Actually in GA's depo he mentions that the JBP story came about while they were sitting around the table trying to figure different scenerios as to what happened to Caylee. This was prior to finding her remains. I think the A's know what happened and they know why. We think we know why but my guess is the A's know why and feel somewhat guilty for not stopping KC when they had the chance. Guilty and denial going hand-in-hand. JMO

 

[logicalgirl]

Would an innocent person stay mute for 2-3 years before going to court?
All the defense has said to date as far as I'm aware, is that all will be understood at the time of trial.
If I were an innocent person sitting in jail I would be proclaiming my innocence.

Thanks ZsaZsa - I was about to respond with the same and answer and to say no worries NTS, I wasn't referring to the defense strategy but more that if Casey is innocent as they are suggesting because this is an an accidental death, what is with the slow march to the trial.
I would not be happy with spending three years of my life in jail on a murder charge I didn't commit. And I wouldn't be willing to take the chance of being convicted of murdering my child. If it was indeed felony manslaughter, why not throw yourself on the mercy of the court. I think dragging this case out with a SODDI here and a SODDI there will not stand lightly with the judicial system, when it comes to sentencing.

 

[notthatsmart]

Oh, I know logicalgirl. Just on a roll today. It's like you are the "straight man" and I just go off on que. The duct tape is the biggest red flag for it not being an accident. Sorry, you just do not do that to a child you love. Anyone who would want to harm a child would not wrap the child in her own blanket, that is a "Mommy Dearest" thing. It's a "marker" for it being the mother, that and water. It would be subconcscious not something a Mom would be aware that she is doing. This, I'm sure, will also be brought out in court by the experts. It is what it is.

Keep those great posts coming because there are some great points made here from you and many others. Thanks

JMO

Bolded by me:

I believe there is a case there in Florida (within 4 miles of the Athony's) where a guy broke into a house and took the little girl into the garage and placed her on a blanket and used duct tape from the house. He went back into the house to get shoes or something and the little girl got the duct tape off and started screaming. this awoke the father and the father chased the intruder away. Later the police found him. Clearly he intended to harm her.

I do believe a perp would use a blanket and duct tape from the house if it were available to him. IMO