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Re: 2 killers, one organized and one disorganized

I would think that the 2 would actually work together to stage. Wouldn't they talk to each other and get on the same page in regards on what they were doing? :dunno:
 
questfortrue said:
I’ve wondered these same questions. Some things are unclear. The “bifringent” material might have arrived on a gloved finger, and something else may have caused her vaginal injuries that night. But assuming a paintbrush injury, I agree this makes no sense as a mock pedo scene to thereafter clean and redress her.

The FBI said there was likely 2 killers, one organized and one disorganized. So in that line of thinking there could have been 2 stagers at this point and it is one idea for resolving a conflicted scene. However, I’m thinking this part with the paintbrush may have been PR’s. Disorganized example: Some things just do not track, A,B, C, D etc. They might do A and then decide to tackle D and then go back to B. “Oh, yeah, JR can’t stand the sight of blood so I’d better clean her up.”

Meyer said the likely instrument (the paintbrush) wasn’t gently inserted, but jabbed into her. I agree it seems so improbable that anyone would think that this would hide prior abuse (staging) Another scenario to the idea of hiding prior abuse is based on a mother blaming the victim, and this might point to PR who may have had a violent reaction to her daughter’s involvement in sex with a member of the family (moo, this went beyond a ‘playing doctor’ scenario). So the paintbrush may have been an assault on JB with dual motivations – disguise prior abuse plus real anger at the victim.
All this MOO.
Click to expand...
Honestly, it wasn't until I started keeping up with this case that I realized examiners could tell the difference in what caused prior injuries, such as digital, so I'm not so sure an adult in the 90's would have known. Or maybe the perp had an idea, but still thought it was worth a try and better than nothing. And maybe the reason the staging causes me such fits is because there were 2 different stagers...the 1st one and then a 2nd one who undid some and then did more. I didn't realize the FBI thought there were 2 killers or I forgot. hmmm, that's interesting. The whole scene IMO, comes across as a sober man cleaning up after a night of drinking. You know? like he got drunk, made a mess and broke things and then had to tidy up the next day and apologize to all the people he called the night before and cussed out. moo
 
Venom said:
Re: 2 killers, one organized and one disorganized

I would think that the 2 would actually work together to stage. Wouldn't they talk to each other and get on the same page in regards on what they were doing? :dunno:
Click to expand...

yep,it's weird ,it seems that the right hand didn't know what the left hand was doing....so many conflicting elements!MAYBE they ran out of time and they both took care of different things without having a specific plan?you do whatever you THINK might look good and I'll take care of the rest?if so,the lack of communication between them {seems they already had this probleml} came back and bit them in the @ss...
 
dodie20 said:
Honestly, it wasn't until I started keeping up with this case that I realized examiners could tell the difference in what caused prior injuries, such as digital, so I'm not so sure an adult in the 90's would have known. Or maybe the perp had an idea, but still thought it was worth a try and better than nothing. And maybe the reason the staging causes me such fits is because there were 2 different stagers...the 1st one and then a 2nd one who undid some and then did more. I didn't realize the FBI thought there were 2 killers or I forgot. hmmm, that's interesting. The whole scene IMO, comes across as a sober man cleaning up after a night of drinking. You know? like he got drunk, made a mess and broke things and then had to tidy up the next day and apologize to all the people he called the night before and cussed out. moo
Click to expand...

dodie20,
In my BDI there are a minimum of three stagers. I reckon another perspective is to consider one stager used the paintbrush to mask the digital penetration with consequent bleeding, another stager decided this was over the top, for whatever reason, so redressed JonBenet in size-12's and longjohns?

Some careful thought wrt to the various crime-scenes might ellicit a profile of the person involved. Consider JR and his suitcase, broken window and chair?

.
 
madeleine said:
also,the stick would have caused different scars,more damage ,more blood?
Click to expand...

madeleine,
Depends which end of the stick is used. Also was it left inside JonBenet, to date it has never been found?

Just like the cord is present to send a message similarly the use of the paintbrush.

i.e. anyone can do digital penetration but only an intruder would surely asphyxiate and molest JonBenet in such a manner.

.
 
I don't know....all this crazy,creepy staging,everything that happened after the crime (cover-up,and not only by the R team,by the DA office and the rest) makes me think that something very sick went on in that household....the disfunction,the behavior,the reactions...I agree that their medical records are key to solviong this crime...whoever did this (not only killing JB,but covering it up like this) definitely has a problem (mental??)...

:moo:
 
anyway,re digital penetration/chronic abuse
I was thinking...a 9years old playing wouldn't know where/when to stop...but an adult who wants to keep it secret does....maybe it's the reason why he stopped at digital and didn't go further...he thought he will get away with it...but something went wrong?
 
and maybe the confusing staging only shows that the two weren't team players and weren't used to WORK TOGETHER as a team like husband and wife should if necessary?
 
where the red arrow is on this picture ...can anyone tell me what that image(black blob) is or what they think it is? and is this (black blob) inside of the home or outside of the home?
any feedback or thoughts would be appreciated...thanks


xmastreewitharrow_zpse426c8a5.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]


where image came from: http://www.acandyrose.com/AnatomyColdCase054.jpg
 
Venom said:
Re: 2 killers, one organized and one disorganized

I would think that the 2 would actually work together to stage. Wouldn't they talk to each other and get on the same page in regards on what they were doing? :dunno:
Click to expand...

This reminded me of my husband and I assembling a swing set for my son.

I lay everything out and use the directions.

My husband just starts, no even looking at the directions and swears the wrong parts are in the box and there are always parts left over.

Lots of arguing ...

Some people simply can not work together on certain tasks, I would image staging a murder scene could be one of those type of things.


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questfortrue said:
I’ve wondered these same questions. Some things are unclear. The “bifringent” material might have arrived on a gloved finger, and something else may have caused her vaginal injuries that night. But assuming a paintbrush injury, I agree this makes no sense as a mock pedo scene to thereafter clean and redress her.

The FBI said there was likely 2 killers, one organized and one disorganized. So in that line of thinking there could have been 2 stagers at this point and it is one idea for resolving a conflicted scene. However, I’m thinking this part with the paintbrush may have been PR’s. Disorganized example: Some things just do not track, A,B, C, D etc. They might do A and then decide to tackle D and then go back to B. “Oh, yeah, JR can’t stand the sight of blood so I’d better clean her up.”

Meyer said the likely instrument (the paintbrush) wasn’t gently inserted, but jabbed into her. I agree it seems so improbable that anyone would think that this would hide prior abuse (staging) Another scenario to the idea of hiding prior abuse is based on a mother blaming the victim, and this might point to PR who may have had a violent reaction to her daughter’s involvement in sex with a member of the family (moo, this went beyond a ‘playing doctor’ scenario). So the paintbrush may have been an assault on JB with dual motivations – disguise prior abuse plus real anger at the victim.
All this MOO.
Click to expand...
Sorry, quest, but I have to call you on the two bolded.

I don't think the FBI actually said there were likely two killers. If I'm not mistaken, seems like a former FBI profiler (either McCrary, or maybe Ressler) stated in an interview that the crime scene showed signs of both organized and disorganized personalities. But IIRC, he also stated that much of what was present in the crime scene was most likely staging. Seems like he was trying to say (without actually stating it) that he thought both adult Ramseys were complicit at least in the staging.

Also, Dr. Meyer never (TMK) never spoke about the autopsy results to anyone outside of the investigation, so all we know is what is written in the AR and what others have stated (as in the search warrants) about his comments. From those sources, he never stated that the paintbrush was actually what was used. Nor did he ever state that it was a finger that was inserted. He also never stated anything about the gentle vs. violent nature of the violation -- and he absolutely never used the word "jabbed" in describing how anything was used. Instead, all we know is what he stated in the AR, and reports in the search warrants of his having stated during the autopsy that the vaginal injuries were "consistent with digital penetration". And even that does not mean that a finger was actually used. He's simply trying in that observation to note that the penetration was not what would be expected to be found under circumstances of a typical rape.

I know some here have inferred that because the two phrases ("sexual assault" and "digital penetration") have been used, there were two separate type of assaults. And then the inference is carried to another level and stated as being a digital assault and a separate assault with the paintbrush. But that is not what was stated. It doesn't mean it couldn't have actually happened of course -- but the coroner never stated that.
 
1999 February 18
Lawrence Schillers book
"Perfect Murder, Perfect Town

(PMPT Page 236):

"John Fernie was angry when he read Charlie Brennan's story about footprints. Like many media storeis, this one fame from an unnamed source and made the Ramseys look guilty. Fernie wondered if the souce was provided the reporter with all the facts. He knew that his own footprints were there in the snow that morning. He had driven up the back alley to the Ramseys' house just after 6:00 A.M. in response to Patsys' frantic call that terrible morning. He remembered walking along the brick sidewalk to the patio door, looking through the glass panel, and reading a line or two of the ransom note, which was lying on the floor just inside the door. Then he ran through the snow-covered grass, around the south side of the house, to the front door. If the cops had been looking, they would have found his footprints. A year and half after JonBenet's death, Fernie told a reporter that the police still had not checked the shoes he wore that day, though a shoe imprint had been discovered next to JonBenet's body."


Excerpts from National Enquirer book, "JonBenet, The Police Files" by Don Gentile and David Wright

1997 April 30 - Taped Interrogation interview of John Ramsey by Steve Thomas and Tom Trujillo in Colorado

NE Book Page 128:

Steve Thomas: "So the morning of the 26th do you recall checking all the doors, and they were locked?"

John Ramsey: "I believe I checked all the first-floor doors, yeah. I did go out once. I went out to the door that leads into the garage to see if it was locked becaue there's a bunch of boxes piled in front of it and you couldn't get to it from the inside of the garage. So I did, infact, go out of the house once, which would have been for, you know, half a minute."

Steve Thomas: "And that was from where to where?"

John Ramsey: "I went out the side door around to the back of the garage to see if that garage door into the garage was locked."

Steve Thomas: "And then immediately back into the house?"

John Ramsey: "Yeah."

Steve Thomas: "And that wasn't an excursion that exceeded 30 seconds?"

John Ramsey: "No, at max"
both from same link: http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-panic911.htm



xmastreewitharrow_zpse426c8a5.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

here is the image again....does the image seem like a person looking in thru a window? and if so...what color shirt does it seem this person has on?

oh...curious...does anyone know what color shirt John Ramsey had on on the 26th?


where image came from: http://www.acandyrose.com/AnatomyColdCase054.jpg



****************all above info is just opinions thoughts...etc...***************
 
otg said:
Sorry, quest, but I have to call you on the two bolded.

I don't think the FBI actually said there were likely two killers. If I'm not mistaken, seems like a former FBI profiler (either McCrary, or maybe Ressler) stated in an interview that the crime scene showed signs of both organized and disorganized personalities. But IIRC, he also stated that much of what was present in the crime scene was most likely staging. Seems like he was trying to say (without actually stating it) that he thought both adult Ramseys were complicit at least in the staging.

Also, Dr. Meyer never (TMK) never spoke about the autopsy results to anyone outside of the investigation, so all we know is what is written in the AR and what others have stated (as in the search warrants) about his comments. From those sources, he never stated that the paintbrush was actually what was used. Nor did he ever state that it was a finger that was inserted. He also never stated anything about the gentle vs. violent nature of the violation -- and he absolutely never used the word "jabbed" in describing how anything was used. Instead, all we know is what he stated in the AR, and reports in the search warrants of his having stated during the autopsy that the vaginal injuries were "consistent with digital penetration". And even that does not mean that a finger was actually used. He's simply trying in that observation to note that the penetration was not what would be expected to be found under circumstances of a typical rape.

I know some here have inferred that because the two phrases ("sexual assault" and "digital penetration") have been used, there were two separate type of assaults. And then the inference is carried to another level and stated as being a digital assault and a separate assault with the paintbrush. But that is not what was stated. It doesn't mean it couldn't have actually happened of course -- but the coroner never stated that.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the additional input.

Sorry, confused the two names: Take Meyer out of the picture here.
It was McCann who attributed the injury to an "object" and said he believed it was forcefully jabbed in. (http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-sexual-abuse.htm


Regards the FBI comments: Kolar wrote in his book that the FBI investigators told BPD to look at the family. And then they also advied that the circumstances of the crime told them that two hands (I interpreted as two people) were involved in the murder.

Now whether the FBI, in their statements, were simply looking at staging and implying that involvement mean 2 killers or 2 stagers, or 1 killer and 1 stager, Kolar does not make clear in his book. It was Kolar himself who indicated one of them seemed organized and one disorganized. Along came JD, FBI profiler who said the “individual” showed both signs of organization and disorganization. So out of this mishmash of cross information guess one can just about consider it all clear as mud. MOO
 
Linda7NJ said:
Yes, I agree. Perhaps after he couldn't get her up after whacking her with the golf club again, or the flashlight, or the bat. He tried. He even jabbed her with the train track trying to wake her up.

Then he woke up ....Patsy.


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Click to expand...


perhaps you meant to say " after he couldn't get it up...
 
SongBird said:
where the red arrow is on this picture ...can anyone tell me what that image(black blob) is or what they think it is? and is this (black blob) inside of the home or outside of the home?
any feedback or thoughts would be appreciated...thanks


xmastreewitharrow_zpse426c8a5.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]


where image came from: http://www.acandyrose.com/AnatomyColdCase054.jpg
Click to expand...

At first I considered perhaps it was a person, but IMO it's an illusion as the proportions are all wrong.


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Linda7NJ said:
At first I considered perhaps it was a person, but IMO it's an illusion as the proportions are all wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free
Click to expand...


thanks for your input Linda7NJ...I also took that into consideration...

c047b76c-77ab-4367-8457-1d1810333616_zpsbe1e8895.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

I would imagine a persons head would be around the area of the black dot I inserted in this above photo....also check out the door to the left too

http://www.neilkearney.com/2011/02/2...9-15th-street/


***************Just opinions thoughts above******************
 
SongBird said:
thank you for your feedback....here is that same object...from the same picture that I linked from above...but just made that portion larger...

blackshirtperson_zps171e9446.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
Click to expand...

It appears to be dark like the wreath and Xmas tree, so my guess it is greenery of some type. A decoration of some sort - a ball of hanging mistletoe perhaps? It doesn't look human form to me.
 
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