Evidence

[Compassionate Reader]

Remember, I'm a retired mathematics teacher. Sometimes I get all bound up in these mathematical things. Sorry. I meant no disrespect.

 

[Userid]

No worries, none taken.

 

[zencompass]

What is important to me about the mtDNA is that I am of the understanding that none of TH's relatives lived in West Memphis and that's why there's the greater possibility that the hair could only belong to TH. JMO

 

[Compassionate Reader]

What is important to me about the mtDNA is that I am of the understanding that none of TH's relatives lived in West Memphis and that's why there's the greater possibility that the hair could only belong to TH. JMO

Exactly! Remember, his daughter (AH) doesn't count as she would have her mother's mtDNA. Sometimes people forget that!

 

[Userid]

Good points to the two points directly above, but I have to ask honestly here: would anyone really know if TH's mother's mother's mother's, 9th cousin, etc. lived or was in West Memphis that night? How would we even know? It's the maternal line, so he'd no doubt have a completely different last name, right? I mean, I suppose it's somewhat of stretch, but it's not impossible. I've just recently learned that I'm distant cousins with a life-long best friend I've lived within a mile of for the last 28 years. Also, the relatives wouldn't have had to live in West Memphis to have committed this crime; they could have been from the surrounding or immediate areas.

I guess my main point is, how do we know definitively that TH has zero relatives in the area? His brother lives in Arkansas. He was born in Northern Arkansas, so obviously, he has family in the state. It's not like TH is a transplant from another state or something. Is there any way to really know?

 

[zencompass]

Terry Hobbs confirmed that the only relatives on the night of May 5th and the next day were Pam's parents. No relatives of Terry's searched or were even in West Memphis then.

This is why the mtDNA found on the hair matching T.H. is so crucial because it also lines up with him being at the last known place where the children were as evidenced by witnesses who saw and heard him calling to the boys.

This evidence coupled with T.H.'s violent behaviour assaulting P.H., shooting her brother and assaulting a neighbour is extremely strong evidence against T.H. And these are only the violent assaults that we know of. Usually an individual who has violent tendencies acts out on them quite frequently unfortunately. JMO

 

[zencompass]

As for the bite mark, Ted Bundy was convicted of murder of one individual based solely on the bitemark which matched perfectly.

If the bite mark on Stevie's forehead matches up with T.H.'s partial denture, well that just about cements the case against T.H.

Murderers have been convicted of far less evidence than what is pointing to T.H. JMO

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Murderers have been convicted of far less evidence than what is pointing to T.H. JMO

<respectfully snipped>

. . . including DE, JB and JM, Jr.!

 

[zencompass]

Innocent individuals such as DE, JB and JM, Jr. were convicted with no evidence amidst satanic panic hysteria. I remember hearing about the "satanic ritual killings" via media which was broadcasting worldwide about three teens who were charged with this. This took over the news actually and was front and centre in Canada. Everyone seemed caught up in it.

This was huge news - I couldn't remember hearing anything so horrific since the murder of toddler James Bulger.

Without the "satanic panic" I do believe that the true murderer(s) would have been brought to justice or at the very least, been interviewed by the police then. JMO

 

[Compassionate Reader]

That brings up a possibility that I've considered from time to time. It was JD and SJ, the juvenile officers, that thrust the "satanic" angle into this case. I wonder why? Could the "motive" in this case have been thought out in advance? Again, who is being protected?

 

[zencompass]

Yes we have had many discussions surrounding S.J. (juvenile officer) just happening to involve himself in the search and then to be the first to spot the shoe where the bodies were and then exclaiming to police officers about "satanic ritualistic killings", and then S.J's theory of Damien (according to his boss J.D. who admitted to making it his business to drive around on nights with full moons to search for satanic ritualistic anythings)and then followed by S.J. accompanying police officer to interview Damien at his trailer the next day. By then "satanic panic" was spreading like wildfire. And then some.

It was all so very odd. And exactly at the very beginning of the discovery.

 

[zencompass]

This case needs to be reopened so that the evidence can be examined properly and with fresh eyes! JMO

 

[Lethalmatthew]

This case needs to be reopened so that the evidence can be examined properly and with fresh eyes! JMO

Absolutely! I don't understand why the state of Arkansas is taking so long to reopen it. It can't be about the money, because JB, JM and DE have waived their right for monetary compensation.

 

[Userid]

Terry Hobbs confirmed that the only relatives on the night of May 5th and the next day were Pam's parents. No relatives of Terry's searched or were even in West Memphis then.

This is why the mtDNA found on the hair matching T.H. is so crucial because it also lines up with him being at the last known place where the children were as evidenced by witnesses who saw and heard him calling to the boys. That possibility, coupled with the possibility of secondary transfer, cements my disbelief in a way.

This evidence coupled with T.H.'s violent behaviour assaulting P.H., shooting her brother and assaulting a neighbour is extremely strong evidence against T.H. And these are only the violent assaults that we know of. Usually an individual who has violent tendencies acts out on them quite frequently unfortunately. JMO

I guess my point is, the maternal blood line of one individual runs deep. TH might not have even been aware he had a relative in the area that was a distant member of his maternal bloodline. That possibility, along with the possibility of secondary transfer, cements my disbelief in a way.

I understand your view and I don't blame you. I wish I could share it, in all honesty. It would make this case a lot less stressful, as far as being a "junior detective" goes. But just as you cite Ted Bundy's case, I've heard of many other cases where bite mark evidence was introduced that was very compelling, only to be rightly refuted. If the bite mark was reviewed by a professional within law-enforcement, etc, I hold it in higher esteem -- but the only thing I've come across is a typical dentist's; and the way he obtained the results were suspect (very amateur-like, without the actual partial in his possession and guesstimating size of said partial by comparing it to a pack of cigarettes). The Defense never, ever brought it up as evidence -- and they still didn't even when they brought up the hair, right? That also makes me wonder.

I know my opinion is of the minority and is unpopular. I don't mean to argue -- these are just points that I feel compelled to discuss because they are the ones that occupy my mind the most, so please don't take offense.

 

[Cher Lockhomes]

If the lace that was used to bind MM turns out to be a 60" lace cut in two, it must be presumed that this lace came from the perp. As far as I am informed, this was the binding where the said hair was found.

 

[Aynia]

If the lace that was used to bind MM turns out to be a 60" lace cut in two, it must be presumed that this lace came from the perp. As far as I am informed, this was the binding where the said hair was found.

I didn't realized that... now the hair is definitely interesting!!!! Ty so much for that info, puts everything in another perspective!

 

[zencompass]

Regarding what I would consider evidence... I would like to see some hard physical evidence, like DNA. However, I'm not gonna beat around the bush here, I believe the perp was most likely someone who knew the boys as is often the case with crimes like these. Now, TH is very high up on my list even though I'm far from 100% convinced and not too keen on pointing fingers - I like to keep an open mind. However, because of that, a lot of DNA evidence could be explained away as secondary transfer. I find it highly unlikely, but what I think doesn't really matter. So it would really be of utmost importance to test any and all possible DNA found on the bodies. The WM3 have already been ruled out by DNA testing - who else could be ruled out?! Just test EVERYTHING. Identify all DNA present.

Sadly, all that testing might not be possible, and that's where slightly more circumstantial things, such as the lock box, come in to play.

I'm chiming in with Graznik's excellent points here - why wasn't all of the DNA tested against everyone related to these boys as well as other suspects? When this case is reopened this will have to be priority one.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Userid, there's nothing wrong with a differing opinion. In this case, though, it's not just one thing that cements my belief in the involvement of TH in these murders. It's the "preponderance of evidence" that has piled up over the years. It's been rehashed ad infinitum, but, again, as flimsy as the hairs are (this includes DJ's, which could either be from secondary transfer [DJ to TH to tree stump] or direct transfer), it's more physical evidence than has ever existed for anyone else. As to the bite mark, since it was tentatively linked to TH's partial dentures, it's really better than Ted Bundy's. A partial denture, especially one with a repair like this one has, is much more distinctive than even a natural bite mark. As to the information pertaining to the bite mark being reviewed by a "law enforcement type," those who should be doing just that won't do it. That's one reason the rally was held.

 

[Userid]

This is just my opinion, but I don't see how this is better than Ted Bundy's bite mark evidence. Granted, I don't know the particular case/victim/bite mark in which you and another poster are referring, but this is why I don't believe that TH's bite mark is "better":

Normally, when a bite mark is presented in court, dental records are obtained; the analysis is done by expert dentists (which I'm assuming have some sort of background in law, etc; or are at least somewhat experienced in analyzing bite mark impressions). This everyday dentist that performed this experiment, worked strictly from two photos, on his home computer. He had no access to TH's dental records or even the actual partial itself. He uses a Marlboro Reds cigarette box to somehow determine the size of the partial, without ever handling the partial in the first place. Do people realize how the size of the partial directly matters to matching the teeth marks, and how it would be next to impossible to decipher the size of the partial with what this dentist had at his disposal? I mean, it was a good "college try" attempt and I don't mean to demean his efforts, but it's quite literally the junkiest of junk science.

Again, I'm not sure about the Ted Bundy case, but I would imagine the evidence was much more compelling than this and that the direct access to case evidence the dentists would be granted to use far outweighs two photos (that most likely weren't the official police photos on top of it).

Also, the dentist in the video does absolutely nothing to address the red "x" mark in the middle of the supposed "bite mark." That was another red flag about the video, at least to me.

Let me just end with this: I'm not saying that people shouldn't watch the video. Watch it. Judge for yourself. Just keep it in perspective. It's junk science.

 

[Cher Lockhomes]

The x mark does not have to be connected to the supposed bite marks. (The left picture portrays this best).

http://maraleveritt.com/some-humans-bite-revisiting-the-evidence/

I always find this interesting in connection with the bite marks:

Furthermore, there is the existence of patterned injuries all over this victim's face that could be bite marks. Since the ME may have missed this crucial evidence, other areas of his body may show bite mark evidence as well. The autopsy photos of this victim supplied to this examiner were not of sufficient quality to make an absolute determination of any kind, and would require a thorough examination by a qualified forensic odontologist for an informed, conclusive analysis. [note: Dr. Thomas David, board certified forensic odontologist, has confirmed the wound as a human adult bitemark and excluded Damien Echols, Jason Baldwin and Jessie Misskelley as the offender using bite impressions obtained from the men in prison] Bite mark evidence is very important in any criminal case because it demonstrates behavior and lends itself to individuation. It can reveal to an examiner who committed the act, because bite marks can be as unique as fingerprints. And, once established, it also reveals the act itself; biting

Battered children most often have randomly placed bite marks on the cheeks, back, and sides. However, bite marks on battered children have also been found on the abdomen, scrotum, and buttocks. In child cases, biting seems to be done in a rapid, random, and enraged manner leaving tissue laceration, diffuse areas, and poor detail, as opposed to sexually associated bite marks, usually inflicted in a slow and sadistic manner and resulting in excellent detail.

Note: According to Dr. Lowell Levine (as detailed Practical Homicide Investigation), there are two general but distinct types of bite mark patterns.

1) Those which are inflicted slowly, which leave a central ecchymotic area or 'suck mark,' and a radiating linear abrasion patter surrounding the central area resembling a sunburst. The type is most often found in sexually oriented homicides;

2) Those which resemble a tooth mark pattern. This is an attack or defensive bite mark and is seen most often in the battered-child type of homicide.

The bite marks in this case appear to be, in the majority, of the nature and quality described above in the Battered Child Homicide.

Based on this evidence, and the location of the disposal site, and the victimology, and the other injuries inflicted on the victims, it is the opinion of this examiner that this case represents a battered child or child-custodial homicide. To a greater extent the parents, and to a lesser extent the guardians, relatives and anyone else who was allowed frequent, trusted access to these children should be thoroughly investigated as suspects in this case.

Taken From:

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/b_turvey_profile.html