Explain the Blood in the Trunk

[Clutchbag]

Grime says eddie alerts to bodily fluids from CADAVERS

Lets get that bit straight for starters

And he also makes the differentiation of that, ie dead body fluids, and dried blood from a living person

his alerting to dead blood from living humans does NOT explain MOST of the examples I gave


So Brit its up to you now to offer a defence on thecadaver dog hit to the

Balcony
Flower bed
Wardrobe area of the parents bedroom
Kate Mccanns clothes

NONE of which were confirmed by the blood dog as being blood

 

[SapphireSteel]

Indeed.

Cadaverine is not necessarily blood.

Gastric enzymes escape the bloating body and begin to break it down. This is the beginning of decomposition.

For this reason you do not get "cadaverine" on say, a surgically removed limb or other artifacts from a live body.

Cadaverine is only produced when someone is deceased.

Eddie detected cadaverine.

Keela detected Madeleine in exactly the same places which were then swabbed and tested positive for elements of Madeleine's DNA.

The dogs don't lie.

:banghead:

 

[fabgod]

If you refer to the original comments I was refering to the cadaver scent transferring within the apartment and the door handle of the apartment. It makes no sense to me that it was only located in specific areas and there wasn't more transference. If Gerry and Kate had handled Madeleine's dead body then they would have been in contact with other things immediately after, such as, the door handle.

None of Gerry's clothes were alerted on at any time. In regards to the car the dogs alerted to the key fob only. But even if Gerry's clothes had been alerted to why then would the only alert be on the key fob? Why not the car seats?

If I refer to your original comments, all you mention is the key fob the boot of the car and a door handle, I dont know how I am supposed to take that as anything but talking about a vehicle.

Gerry McCann could have been wearing surgical gloves that he removed, he could have been wearing different clothes that were discarded, virtually any scenario can be painted in regard to the key fob.
Its a ridiculous argument to try to state that the car seats would have been contaminated, that does not have to be the case.

It is very possible that Gerry McCann could comeinto contact with a cadaver by touching and that he could touch the key fob.

 

[fabgod]

Indeed.

Cadaverine is not necessarily blood.

Gastric enzymes escape the bloating body and begin to break it down. This is the beginning of decomposition.

For this reason you do not get "cadaverine" on say, a surgically removed limb or other artifacts from a live body.

Cadaverine is only produced when someone is deceased.

Eddie detected cadaverine.

Keela detected Madeleine in exactly the same places which were then swabbed and tested positive for elements of Madeleine's DNA.

The dogs don't lie.

:banghead:

Agreed, the dogs are incapable of lying, the stck answer is that some previous tenant of 5A cut himself shaving and bled for 40 minutes.
The joke of this is that this cut is being presented by some as having gone on the floor the walls the curtains etc, how anyone can seriously believe that someone with a cut that was bleeding so badly that they would walk around for 40 minutes spraying blood everywhere without getting medical attention is unbleievable and puts into context their argument - desperate.

Fact is no one apart from the man who cut himself, knows how badly he bled, but it has been seized upon by the pro McCann squad and there is no knowledge of whether it was a tiny cut or a substantial cut, but it is presented as being a reason that the dogs alerted, yet these same people then try and rubbish the dogs and Martin Grime?

If thats the best defence they can muster, then they are in a desperate state

 

[brit1981]

Indeed.

Cadaverine is not necessarily blood.

Gastric enzymes escape the bloating body and begin to break it down. This is the beginning of decomposition.

For this reason you do not get "cadaverine" on say, a surgically removed limb or other artifacts from a live body.

Cadaverine is only produced when someone is deceased.

Eddie detected cadaverine.

Keela detected Madeleine in exactly the same places which were then swabbed and tested positive for elements of Madeleine's DNA.

The dogs don't lie.

:banghead:

Sorry, but you are incorrect. I think you may have read a generla description of decomposition and read what happens to the stomach and assumed thta means the stomach has to be present for decomposition occurr.

Also I think you are confusing gastric enzymes with digestive enzymes. An entire body is not needed for decomposition. It is the same process so long as the tissue is dead, it does not need an abdomen. If someone has their arm cut off that arm will decompse in the exact same manner regardless of whether the perosn survives or not.

Grime said his dog alerts to bodies, dried blood and bodily fluids from living people, and that his dogs are nto evidence on their own. To claim that his dogs are evidenc eon their own and will only alert if a body is present is just disregarding what he has said.

If gerry had touched a body and then transfered that scent to the card fobb, then it is comical to suggest that he then did not touch the steering wheel, seat belt, gearstick etc. But gven that his dried bodilfy fluids were found on the card fobb there is no reaosn to disbeleive Grime's claim about the dog alerting to drie dbodily fluids. It is odd that the only piece of evidence against the mccanns those who are implying they are guilty of a crime can come up with are the dog alerts, but at the same time in order to do this they have to ignore what the handler actually says. If Grime was ever caled to a trial in this case, be it Amarels, Bennetts, etc I think it is safe to say he is going to claim he told the truth in his report regarding the dogs abilities to alert to dried blood etc. I really do not think he is suddenly going to claim he lied in an official police report and that his dog only alerts to dead bodies just because that will help the likes of Amarel and Bennett.

And I woudl like to point out that the only place the dog alerted that had any elements of madeleines DNA wa sint he car boot where the dog did not alert, and those elements were also elements of the entire mccanns family DNA. The only place the dog alerted and a person's DNA was identified was the card fobb, and I doubt any coronor is going to accept that as evidence of Gerry McCann's death.

 

[Clutchbag]

Citation needed that the dog handler said eddie alerts to * bodily fluids * from the living

 

[fabgod]

If gerry had touched a body and then transfered that scent to the card fobb, then it is comical to suggest that he then did not touch the steering wheel, seat belt, gearstick etc. But gven that his dried bodilfy fluids were found on the card fobb there is no reaosn to disbeleive Grime's claim about the dog alerting to drie dbodily fluids

.

Comical really?
Why would he in your estimation have to had touched the steering wheel and the gear stick etc?

He could have simply been putting things in the boot or taking them out, no need to even touch the vehicle because he had a remote key fob which would unlock the vehicle, hardly comical!
What is comical is the lack of any logic in some of the desperate defence of anything McCann

 

[fabgod]

Citation needed that the dog handler said eddie alerts to * bodily fluids * from the living

Can't be done, all that can be said is the same old play on words, taken out of context,
when everyone knows that the fluids are from a decomposing body because Eddie as gem2626 stated, was a Cadaver Dog

 

[Clutchbag]

Can't be done, all that can be said is the same old play on words, taken out of context,
when everyone knows that the fluids are from a decomposing body because Eddie as gem2626 stated, was a Cadaver Dog

Exactly, mr grimes profile clearly says eddie will alert to human remains and bodily fuilds... From the remains not from someones nosebleed!

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate

human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any

environment or terrain. The initial training of the asset is conducted using pig as the

subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid. The use of human remains

for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time. The

dog has however considerable experience in operational recovery of human remains

and evidential forensic material and has trained exclusively using human remains in

the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog involves the

use of collection of 'Dead body scent' odour from corpses using remote technical

equipment which does not contact.




oh and fabgod im still waiting for someone, anyone to explain the scent of death in the parents bedroom, on the verandah outside the parenta room, in the flower bush, on kate mccanns clothes and on a childs t shirt, no one has given a reason for these alerts by eddie

 

[Gem2626]

Exactly, mr grimes profile clearly says eddie will alert to human remains and bodily fuilds... From the remains not from someones nosebleed!

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate

human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any

environment or terrain. The initial training of the asset is conducted using pig as the

subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid. The use of human remains

for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time. The

dog has however considerable experience in operational recovery of human remains

and evidential forensic material and has trained exclusively using human remains in

the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog involves the

use of collection of 'Dead body scent' odour from corpses using remote technical

equipment which does not contact.




oh and fabgod im still waiting for someone, anyone to explain the scent of death in the parents bedroom, on the verandah outside the parenta room, in the flower bush, on kate mccanns clothes and on a childs t shirt, no one has given a reason for these alerts by eddie

BBM-

'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

So if someone alive had a nose bleed and that blood had dried then Eddie would in fact alert to that

 

[Clutchbag]

BBM-

'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

So if someone alive had a nose bleed and that blood had dried then Eddie would in fact alert to that

Yea but the fact is thatnever happened because keela the blood dog said NO

she was taken into the parents bedroom, the verandah, the flower bed, the clothes where the cadaver dog alerted and she did NOT alert therefore it was NOT blood eddie was alerting to, do u get it now? And in the dog handlers words, if there is blood there she will find it ergo eddie was a,erting to a dead body

 

[Gem2626]

Yea but the fact is thatnever happened because keela the blood dog said NO

she was taken into the parents bedroom, the verandah, the flower bed, the clothes where the cadaver dog alerted and she did NOT alert therefore it was NOT blood eddie was alerting to, do u get it now? And in the dog handlers words, if there is blood there she will find it ergo eddie was a,erting to a dead body

Right I get what you're saying (doesn't mean that I agree that they found anything incriminating)

 

[brit1981]

Fab,
How would he not have to touch the car to put something in the boot. The doors could be unlocked rmeotely, not physically opened. And if he transfered any scent onto the fob why did it not transfer to anythign else, such as the outside dorr handles

here are statements from Grime confirming the dog alerts to material from a living person.

The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

from harrison http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
The proven capability of the EVRD is to :

Search to locate very small samples of human remains, body fluids and blood in any environment or terrain.

"any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

The searches described in this document were limited to certain locations. Therefore, it can not be said that the concealed remains of Madeleine McCann are not within the village of Praia da Luz. "


Harrison also said this
GRIME commented on the actions of the dogs and added that no confirmed evidence or information could be taken from the alerts by the dogs but needed to be confirmed with physical evidence.http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON-RIGATORY.htm

And people have explained the alerts time and time again. first is the fact that if the dog is accurate it alerts to dried blood and bodily fluids from living donors, even tiny amounts that cannot be picked up forensicly, secondly transfer could occurr so if an intruder had killed madeleine and decided to hide her body (which lets face it gets rid of most of the evidence) then it is not imposisble that transfer woudl have occurred, transfer could have occurred from innocent parties too - the first police in there were gnr, who deal with traffic, are we saying that not one of them had come into contact with a dead body in the last few weeks, not one accident, not one bit of spilt blood (since transfer would occurr for blood too), or someone could have cut their finger (torn a nail) and got atiny bit of blood on a shirt, etc. Then there is the fact that edddie has made mistakes - the jersey case for instanc eis the most infamous one as he alerted several times, a panic of mass murder followed and it turned out to be a false alarm depsite rumours of bones and teeth being found. As far as I can see eddie was not working for the british police at the time of the mccann search, as the PJ were being charged hundred per day which is far more than the UK police charged for the use of sniffer dogs. perhaps the Pj should have used some still in the employ of the UK police.

I mean why would a body have been near the flower bed, do we really think the mccanns dug a hole in the flowerbed and buried their daughter there in broad daylight, and no-one noticed? If i noticed someone digging up the flower beds of their one week holiday let I would notice it, espeically if they were burying a body sized item in it.

 

[SapphireSteel]

It really does make me wonder what some people do find incriminating.

Nothing short of photographic evidence, it seems.

Cadaver dogs, investigators (both Portugese and British), forensics, proof of lying and coverups, lack of cooperation...all just dismissed as "rubbish" and "lies".

What terribly bad luck the McCann has, first losing a daughter and then being blamed for it, when it was not their fault! It's not like they were there or anything....!

:banghead:

 

[K9Snoop]

It really does make me wonder what some people do find incriminating.

Nothing short of photographic evidence, it seems.

And that's not necessarily valid either. Ever hear of "Photo Shop"?

 

[brit1981]

What proof of cover-ups? Has any one got a single shred of evidence of a cover-up?
There were no forensics found against the mccanns, the dogs are not evidence in their own and alert to things other than corpses (does anyone think they will succeed in declaring gerry mccann dead because the dog alerted to the fobb which contained his material)

 

[Clutchbag]

What proof of cover-ups? Has any one got a single shred of evidence of a cover-up?
There were no forensics found against the mccanns, the dogs are not evidence in their own and alert to things other than corpses (does anyone think they will succeed in declaring gerry mccann dead because the dog alerted to the fobb which contained his material)

keela reacts to blood only
Eddie to human remains, bodily fluids from those remains, the remnant scent of cadaver odour evenwhenthere is no body and dried blood from a living human

his reaction to the key fob has never been stated as definitely being to blood coming from gerry mccann any more than the reaction of keela to blood behind the sofa came from madeleine, in both cases certain markers found in the samples were consistent with the same markers in both their dna profiles, so if you are going to insist gerrys blood was on the key fob you have to insist it was madeleines blood behind the sofa,both descriptions in the fss report of these results were identically worded, not that it proves anything of course......

 

[SapphireSteel]

I sincerely do not know what some people will accept as "proof".

Perhaps they had to be in 5a watching Kate overdose her children to accept it.

:dunno:

 

[Clutchbag]

I sincerely do not know what some people will accept as "proof".

Perhaps they had to be in 5a watching Kate overdose her children to accept it.

:dunno:

unfortunately there is no real proof either way though the balance of circumstantial evidence is way heavier on a non abduction, way heavier

The mccanns are lucky the portuguese have more stringent codes for evidence than the british to charge

Then again i do believe it is british law that states the british police can charge a person in this country for a crime committed whilst abroad, ooer, you never know, justic works very slowly sometimes

 

[SapphireSteel]

unfortunately there is no real proof either way though the balance of circumstantial evidence is way heavier on a non abduction, way heavier

The mccanns are lucky the portuguese have more stringent codes for evidence than the british to charge

Then again i do believe it is british law that states the british police can charge a person in this country for a crime committed whilst abroad, ooer, you never know, justic works very slowly sometimes

I believe so too.

Don't hold your breath for it happening here though.

Yes the McCanns were very lucky with the way the Portugese law works, weren't they? They couldn't have chosen a better country to lose a child in if they tried...

:cow: