Family battling Children’s Hospital to bring teen home for Christmas #2

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No offense, but just reading those symptoms and progression of symptoms, and Justina being taken from the first hospital shows me exactly why the ER physician felt that something was really off. I will never believe that mito doesn't show up in blood work or the body system that it is affecting as some abnormality. Justina must show no definite neurological, brain, or vascular damage, or even abnormalities in actual tests. The brain, heart, and spinal cord is really easy to check. Muscles too. Intestinal, I don't know.

She has brain damage from a stroke which was shown by an MRI.
Her cecostomy was done after extensive testing. Which showed abnormal motility of her colon. Cecestomy was actually a less invasive alternative, considering doctors considered removal of colon. She isn't by any means a healthy child.
 
She has brain damage from a stroke which was shown by an MRI.
Her cecostomy was done after extensive testing. Which showed abnormal motility of her colon. Cecestomy was actually a less invasive alternative, considering doctors considered removal of colon. She isn't by any means a healthy child.

But, if the brain were being affected and the symptom was gibberish and slurrred speech, would some testing show that something bad was going on IN the brain? Also, the legs. If they believe it's neurological, wouldn't tests show that something is going on with the nerves in her legs. It just seems like mito may not show up in tests, but the sudden or worsening damage that it does would. Does it affect areas that are impossible to test. I believe she had a stroke and that she was very constipated most of the time in the past. Surely there is no doubt about that.
 
Just a guess and I could be totally wrong here but I think the abnormal movements that started with her right leg and spread to other parts of the body might largely be what was considered medically unexplained. Mito could explain weakness and neurological abnormality might explain certain patterns of abnormal movement and posture but some patterns of abnormality are not anatomically compatible with what is known about motor control and are considered more typical for a psychosomatic etiology. If it was, say, another stroke, or a pinched nerve somewhere, the problems generally wouldn't start with the right leg and generalize in other parts of the body if the motor control of those areas isn't governed with the same anatomical region. Some brain processes could affect the nervous system in a more diffuse manner but if they've done brain scans those might have been ruled out.
The speech difficulty is described as intermittent slurring speech. It could have been intermittent because it's associated with the degree or alertness/tiredness but certainly one video of Justina speaking slurredly isn't necessarily proof that it's no longer intermittent, that she's gotten worse and never speaks clearly now. It was also reported in the beginning that some symptoms seemed to get worse while her mother was there so it could possibly be part of the medically unexplained thing.
 
It's not a crime to be sick. Or at least it shouldn't be.
She has health issues, but after 15 months away from her parents her health issues have not gone away.
Parents shouldn't be penalized for having a sick child.
 
It was reported that Justina was taken into DCF custody because the parents were found to be unable to provide for her necessary and proper physical, mental and emotional development, and the Connecticut DCF said they had substantiated them for neglect and returning her wasn't in her best interest.

http://cbsboston.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/scan.pdf
 
It was reported that Justina was taken into DCF custody because the parents were found to be unable to provide for her necessary and proper physical, mental and emotional development, and the Connecticut DCF said they had substantiated them for neglect and returning her wasn't in her best interest.

http://cbsboston.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/scan.pdf

I don't know what the evidence was or what evidence the parents were allowed to present, but I remember what the caseworker put in her report when I had issues w/ DCFS and my teenager--- "The mother(me) states that she just can't take off work for ----(my daughter)", when what I'd said was that I couldn't take off work every time she threw a temper tantrum.
 
I read over the previous posts and, although I might have missed it, I was surprised that I did not see a mention of or link to the clinic note from the director of the Metabolism Program at Boston Children's (Korson's contemporary). This was posted on Beau Berman's FoxCT Facebook on December 23, 2013. Berman posted a statement that he could not reveal his source, but the details in the report appear genuine. I have seen references to it on a few news forums.

Dr Gerard Berry is a geneticist and expert in metabolic diseases (like Mitochondrial Disorders). He initially saw Justina at BCH on February 10, 2013 - the day she was admitted. Without access to the entire medical record, we do mot have any way to know if or how frequently he followed Justina after that date.

https://www.facebook.com/BeauBermanFOXCT

"From Boston Children's Hospital "Consultation Notes" dated 4/25/13 obtained by Fox CT News:

Metabolism Consult 013

Patient Name: Justina Pelletier
Originated by: Stephanie Newton MS on 2/10/13
Authenticated by: Gerard Berry MD on 2/13/13
Print Date/Time: 4/25/2013

"HISTORY OF PRESENT ILLNESS: Justina has a longstanding history of possible mitochondrial disease with abdominal pain, poor motility, headaches and fatigue. These concerns started becoming much more severe in October 2012 when she began having what is described as odd movements of her right leg which caused her foot to pronate. She was seen by an orthopedic doctor, Dr. Webster at Tufts who prescribed a brace for the leg. Over time Justina's abnormal movements began to affect the left leg and now the rest of the body is affected. Her mother reports that over the past week she has had increased weakness which cause (sic) her to not be able to walk. She is having significant leg pain. Her headaches are becoming worse with light and sound. She also has intermittent slurred speech and altered mental status. Her mother reports that over the last 6-8 weeks her slurred speech and 'gibberish language' has been getting worse. Justina was admitted to Connecticut Children's Hospital on Monday February 04 due to worsening neurological problems as noted above. Her mother reports that it was difficult to complete this admission as Justina was not felt to have a known identifiable diagnosis. Her mother chose to bring her home from the hospital on February 8 hoping that she would do better. After discharge she was still not doing well, complained of feeling weird was not eating and had abnormalities on swallowing. Her other physicians were consulted and it was recommended that she be admitted here at Boston Chidlren's Hospital. She has been here since February 10."

I actually landed in this forum by accident today, and read just a bit. I don't want to get into who's right and who's wrong, but I thought I could clear up what appears to be a misunderstanding of what this "clinic note" is, and what it isn't. I don't know how this reporter got this tiny portion of the record, but it isn't the whole note or document, not by a long shot!

In order to be paid for care (private insurance, Medicare, or Medicaid), medical providers must adhere to the 1997 E & M (Evaluation and Management) Documentation Guidelines in preparing the medical record. This particular "note" is not a progress or follow up note. It is the introduction to a much more lengthy H & P (History and Physical) with and MDM (medical decision making) plan. When a new doctor signs on to a case, or a patient has an initial visit, or is admitted to a new facility, the provider (which can be an MD, a NP, PA, or other licensed, qualified provider) must initiate this document.

All that is here is the HPI, which combines the CC (chief complaint) with the HPI. The CC and the HPI are taken in the words of the patient, therefore they are highly subjective. Where there is no CC, as in a patient transfer, there is a very brief summary of why and how the patient came to be in the care of this new provider. It is NOT a diagnosis -- that comes much further in the document.

As an example, a CC might be "Pt reports she fell in her bathroom last night, and has pain in her right hip."

It could also be something like: "Pt reports she was talking with aliens in her bathroom, when she fell while trying to climb out the window to fly to the mother ship."

Obviously, that would indicate some possible mental or emotional difficulties, in addition to the pain in the hip.

It could also be something like "Pt is self referring to new primary care provider today for concerns about inadequate treatment by previous provider."

It could also be: "Patient arrived by ambulance from XYZ medical center, where he was S/P (status post) emergency exploratory laparotomy with necrotic bowel resection 5-1-14, with postoperative hemorrhage, reoperation, and multisystem sequelae. Patient received 12 days of ICU care, 3 days of step down care, and is being admitted by transfer for further acute care management and acute rehabilitation."

None of the examples is necessarily "true" or comprehensive information-- it is a summary provided by the patient, or referring facility. It is the Prologue to the novel, to use a literary reference.

The categories of the 1997 E & M Documentation Guidelines (used by every provider-- this is absolutely standard of care documentation):

- CC/ HPI
- Past Family and Social History
- ROS (Review of Systems)
- PE (Physical Exam)
- Labs and diagnostic studies (reviewing available records)
- MDM (Medical decision making)
This category includes: All relevant diagnoses, management options, risks of significant complications, Morbidity and Mortality, treatment plan, referrals, labs and diagnostic studies to be obtained, next follow up visit or plan. This section often now includes a comment by the provider as to the total time spent in exam and consultation.

So my point with this post is just to demonstrate that what the document obtained by the reporter is, is NOT really a document at all. It is the opening statement to a far more comprehensive evaluation and management H & P note. It has to be taken in proper context.


http://www.cms.gov/Outreach-and-Edu...N/MLNEdWebGuide/Downloads/97Docguidelines.pdf

http://www.cms.gov/Outreach-and-Education/Medicare-Learning-Network-MLN/MLNEdWebGuide/EMDOC.html
 
Thanks K_Z. I should have explicitly stated that in the first post of this information. I should not have assumed that it was clearly a partial document.

The reason I linked this is because so much of the information contained in it - as provided by the mother - directly contradicts common beliefs that have been repeated over and over on message boards, forums, Facebook posts, and in some media reports.
 
Parents never claimed their daughter was perfectly healthy until she ended up at BCH. Clearly she had health issues. But she could walk and even ice skate a short time prior to being admitted to BCH. Now she can not do either.
 
It was reported that Justina was taken into DCF custody because the parents were found to be unable to provide for her necessary and proper physical, mental and emotional development, and the Connecticut DCF said they had substantiated them for neglect and returning her wasn't in her best interest.

http://cbsboston.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/scan.pdf

That would be the same CT DCF that was reprimanded by the judge Johnston for refusing to be involved in the case. One wonders if they actually believe the child was neglected as to why that is.
 
Parents never claimed their daughter was perfectly healthy until she ended up at BCH. Clearly she had health issues. But she could walk and even ice skate a short time prior to being admitted to BCH. Now she can not do either.

<modsnip> do you have an actual source of information, other than the words of the Pelletiers? I am genuinely curious what "a short time" means to you. Clearly, according to her mother, she wasn't able to walk and was having a great deal of difficulty with her legs before she was admitted. You keep citing the skating like her not being able to walk happened at BCH, which is clearly not true. You also keep pointing out that she still can't walk, which may or may not have happened in the care of her parents. Since the only information we have to go on is provided by the Pelletiers who keep saying they don't know anything, I'm not sure what we're supposed to believe.

<modsnip> I would appreciate if you can give us a date for that skating video so we can better ascertain how recently she was able to do so. If we have no date, we really have no idea that it was a short time before her admission to BCH.
 
Pardon me, but this information was published in msm a long time ago. Please don't accuse me of making it up. Skating video is dated December of 2012. She could ice skate six week prior to going to BCH.

"In December 2012, Justina Pelletier was an active 15-year-old girl who would go ice skating, laughed and spent time with her family."

Read more: http://foxct.com/2013/11/19/hospita...-after-parents-argue-diagnosis/#ixzz32YGsULsB

"They were making the white-knuckled trip from Connecticut because 14-year-old Justina wasn’t eating and was having trouble walking. Just six weeks earlier, the girl had drawn applause at a holiday ice-skating show near her home in West Hartford, performing spins, spirals, and waltz jumps."

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/12/15/justina/vnwzbbNdiodSD7WDTh6xZI/story.html
 
No one accused you of making it up. However, you are relying solely on things the parents have said - things that we as the public cannot verify, and including things that are contradictory (example: "she can't walk now!" vs the report of the mother about trouble with her legs prior to her admission at children's; or "she's dying!" Vs "they don't tell us anything about her condition!").

What posters are trying to say is not that you're making things up, but you are relying solely on the unverifiable and unreliable word of the parents (who clearly have a reason to paint themselves in the best possible light) alone.


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That would be the same CT DCF that was reprimanded by the judge Johnston for refusing to be involved in the case. One wonders if they actually believe the child was neglected as to why that is.


Let me guess: CT DCF is in cahoots with the judge, the Guardian Ad litem, MA DCF, Children's, and the doctors in CT who expressed concern about diagnosis/doctor shopping, and the Tufts doctors who in the past had also expressed concerns.

:rolleyes:


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Pardon me, but this information was published in msm a long time ago. Please don't accuse me of making it up. Skating video is dated December of 2012. She could ice skate six week prior to going to BCH.

"In December 2012, Justina Pelletier was an active 15-year-old girl who would go ice skating, laughed and spent time with her family."

Read more: http://foxct.com/2013/11/19/hospita...-after-parents-argue-diagnosis/#ixzz32YGsULsB

"They were making the white-knuckled trip from Connecticut because 14-year-old Justina wasn’t eating and was having trouble walking. Just six weeks earlier, the girl had drawn applause at a holiday ice-skating show near her home in West Hartford, performing spins, spirals, and waltz jumps."

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/12/15/justina/vnwzbbNdiodSD7WDTh6xZI/story.html

From the "Berman" notes:

These concerns started becoming much more severe in October 2012 when she began having what is described as odd movements of her right leg which caused her foot to pronate. She was seen by an orthopedic doctor, Dr. Webster at Tufts who prescribed a brace for the leg. Over time Justina's abnormal movements began to affect the left leg and now the rest of the body is affected.

Did she skate with a brace on her leg? Or did her parents fail to follow up on getting the prescribed brace for her? Or did her leg symptoms get miraculously better just in time to skate, and then get worse again during the "6-8 weeks" before she was admitted first to Connecticut Childrens Hospital on February 4-8, then taken home where she got worse, then rushed to BCH?

Just this brief bit should be enough to cause some/most to doubt the story being told by the parents. She needed a brace, her legs were moving weirdly, no, she could ice skate. She was so sick she had to go into the hospital, no, her parents thought she would do better at home, no, she was so sick she had to be rushed to BCH less than 48 hours later.

Because of medical privacy laws, we will never know the full story, but what the Pelletiers have said publicly is enough for me to strongly believe that DCF and BCH knew what they were doing when they decided that Justina needed protection.
 
As Justina's parents are reportedly allowed 'almost unlimited visitation' at this new CT facility as opposed to the one-hour weekly supervised visits in MA, I really have to wonder whether her medical team & DCF consider that her condition has improved to the extent that exposure to her family is no longer an immediate threat to her health or whether perhaps this is a tacit admission that those visitation restrictions were a wee bit draconian.
 
Pardon me, but this information was published in msm a long time ago. Please don't accuse me of making it up. Skating video is dated December of 2012. She could ice skate six week prior to going to BCH.

"In December 2012, Justina Pelletier was an active 15-year-old girl who would go ice skating, laughed and spent time with her family."

Read more: http://foxct.com/2013/11/19/hospita...-after-parents-argue-diagnosis/#ixzz32YGsULsB

I accused you of no such thing. I asked for your source since you keep mentioning it. I'm not sure that 6 weeks is a short time when dealing with a serious illness. I mean I had a friend who was diagnosed with cancer and was given a few months to live, he died 4 days after his diagnosis. But the bigger issue is, her mother saying she was having difficulty with her legs, BEFORE she was admitted to BCH. I'm not even sure why anyone other than the media (who lives for hyperbole) would mention the ice skating. It seems pretty obvious by her moms description, that prior to her being admitted, she would not have been ice skating and she was at that time, in her parents care. I'm not inclined to blame her parents for her issues with her legs, but that also means I'm not inclined to blame BCH.

"They were making the white-knuckled trip from Connecticut because 14-year-old Justina wasn&#8217;t eating and was having trouble walking. Just six weeks earlier, the girl had drawn applause at a holiday ice-skating show near her home in West Hartford, performing spins, spirals, and waltz jumps."

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/12/15/justina/vnwzbbNdiodSD7WDTh6xZI/story.html


So by your own citation, she was having trouble walking before they went to BCH, this begs the question, why do you keep mentioning it? What exactly is the point you're trying to make? I ask because this certainly doesn't seem to make BCH seem responsible for her not being able to walk.
 
I accused you of no such thing. I asked for your source since you keep mentioning it. I'm not sure that 6 weeks is a short time when dealing with a serious illness. I mean I had a friend who was diagnosed with cancer and was given a few months to live, he died 4 days after his diagnosis. But the bigger issue is, her mother saying she was having difficulty with her legs, BEFORE she was admitted to BCH. I'm not even sure why anyone other than the media (who lives for hyperbole) would mention the ice skating. It seems pretty obvious by her moms description, that prior to her being admitted, she would not have been ice skating and she was at that time, in her parents care. I'm not inclined to blame her parents for her issues with her legs, but that also means I'm not inclined to blame BCH.




So by your own citation, she was having trouble walking before they went to BCH, this begs the question, why do you keep mentioning it? What exactly is the point you're trying to make? I ask because this certainly doesn't seem to make BCH seem responsible for her not being able to walk.

I think my point is very clear. After accusing parents of medical abuse/neglect, BCH haven't fixed her.
She had trouble walking when admitted, now she appears to not be able to walk at all. After all the treatment for somatoform, she appears to be no better than she was before treated for it.
So what was the abuse, exactly?
 
I think my point is very clear. After accusing parents of medical abuse/neglect, BCH haven't fixed her.
She had trouble walking when admitted, now she appears to not be able to walk at all. After all the treatment for somatoform, she appears to be no better than she was before treated for it.
So what was the abuse, exactly?

BBM. BCH can't "fix" the parents, unfortunately. It is up to them to fix themselves.

As for the trouble walking, how do doctors "fix" a stroke?

Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
She has brain damage from a stroke which was shown by an MRI.
Her cecostomy was done after extensive testing. Which showed abnormal motility of her colon. Cecestomy was actually a less invasive alternative, considering doctors considered removal of colon. She isn't by any means a healthy child.
 
That would be the same CT DCF that was reprimanded by the judge Johnston for refusing to be involved in the case. One wonders if they actually believe the child was neglected as to why that is.


The judge doesn't have the authority to reprimand child protective services in another state.
He clearly wasn't happy with them, IMO "rebuke" would be the correct way to describe the judges comments.


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