Family battling Children’s Hospital to bring teen home for Christmas #2

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I don't believe anyone thinks Justina is a perfectly heathy child whose parents made her ill.
While I can't speak for anyone else, I believe Justina's symptoms have been exaggerated, she was likely over medicated and she wasn't receiving the therapy that several doctors recommended.
With one team coordinating care while keeping her family at bay...it allowed the team to access her current presenting symptoms, wean her off unnecessary medications, all without interference.
All IMO


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I don't believe anyone thinks Justina is a perfectly heathy child whose parents made her ill.
While I can't speak for anyone else, I believe Justina's symptoms have been exaggerated, she was likely over medicated and she wasn't receiving the therapy that several doctors recommended.
With one team coordinating care while keeping her family at bay...it allowed the team to access her current presenting symptoms, wean her off unnecessary medications, all without interference.
All IMO


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And what fantastic results were achieved after all that.
 
And what fantastic results were achieved after all that.

From her mother's own description, quoted earlier here in other posts, no "fantastic results" were happening while she was on the mito treatment BEFORE she was hospitalized at BCH, either. She was very ill, and that is why she was taken there.

And because neither Tufts nor BCH nor the Framingham or Thompson facilities are allowed to reveal Justina's past and current medical history, no lay person can say with confidence that she is getting worse. . . or better. We simply do not have the information, and drawing inferences from photos is speculative at best.

But, in my opinion: if the poor kid were truly at death's door, she would have been sent back to a hospital, not moved to a step-down facility like the one in Thompson. That she has been moved there seems to me to indicate that she is indeed doing better.
 
Here is what I read earlier today.



http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/12/15/justina/vnwzbbNdiodSD7WDTh6xZI/story.html

Interesting that it is carefully worded that the biopsy "suggested" mito. That is not necessarily diagnostic in a "definitive" way. My understanding is that the muscle biopsy alone is not diagnostic for the disease, as there are other diseases that reveal the same results with either fresh or frozen biopsy. There is lots of discussion about frozen versus fresh biopsies online if one wants to search.

I'm familiar with muscle biopsies because they are used to diagnose a very serious genetic anesthesia disorder, Malignant Hyperthermia Syndrome. For MH, the biopsy is 100% diagnostic.

From your perspective, perhaps you could explain the meaning of the term "working diagnosis". This and some more well researched articles use this modifier, but I don't think most of the general public understands what this means. There seems to be a lot of assumptions on the part of the parents and some of the public that this was a definitive diagnosis.

(When my child was given a "working diagnosis" of a different disorder, it was explained to me that this was a preliminary diagnosis pending confirmation through more extensive confirmatory testing. The physician referred to it as his "best guess. In my child's case, testing proved it to be incorrect and we moved on with further diagnostic testing.)
 
Pardon me, but this information was published in msm a long time ago. Please don't accuse me of making it up. Skating video is dated December of 2012. She could ice skate six week prior to going to BCH.

"In December 2012, Justina Pelletier was an active 15-year-old girl who would go ice skating, laughed and spent time with her family."

Read more: http://foxct.com/2013/11/19/hospita...-after-parents-argue-diagnosis/#ixzz32YGsULsB

"They were making the white-knuckled trip from Connecticut because 14-year-old Justina wasn’t eating and was having trouble walking. Just six weeks earlier, the girl had drawn applause at a holiday ice-skating show near her home in West Hartford, performing spins, spirals, and waltz jumps."

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/12/15/justina/vnwzbbNdiodSD7WDTh6xZI/story.html
Neither of the links you provided prove the December 2012 date you have indicated for the skating video. No one is disputing that Justina was able to skate at some point in the past. The family has certainly presented this video as some sort of proof that she could skate just weeks prior to her admission to BCH. However, there is no date stamp on the video itself or the related photographs. That video could have been taken anytime in the previous 12 to 18 months based on the apparent age of Justina in the images. Has any member of the audience stepped foreword with corroborating dated video? Is there a dated program - listing Justina's performance and corroborated by someone outside of the family that she actually performed? Has the Ice Arena where it was held or the organizers of the event provided any confirmation? Can you provide anything besides family statements (or media reports of family statements) to back up your point?

This, of course, opens up a whole new question of reliability of the family's statements. If Justina could perform spins, spirals, and waltz jumps on ice skates in late December 2012, that calls into question the accuracy of Linda Pelletier's statements on admission to BCH. According to the "Metabolism Consult 013" (partial) note (linked to Beau Berman's Facebook page) Linda informed the doctors that Justina began experiencing odd leg movements and foot pronation requiring a leg brace in October, 2012. Linda reported that her symptoms spread to her other leg and then the rest of her body. Linda also mentioned headaches that worsened with light and sound and "altered mental status" over the prior 6 - 8 weeks - which would indicate the time that she reportedly performed in an ice show. None of these symptoms are conducive to performing in an ice show safely and successfully. Either the family is exaggerating to the media or the mother was exaggerating to the doctors.
 
Justina's family showed reporters her medical records. What is reported is not just being based on their words.

Do you have a source for this claim? Something besides a family member?

We have no way to know exactly what kind of records, nor how comprehensive the records were, nor what may have been omitted, that were purportedly provided to reporters. And reporters are not all unbiased and balanced in their reporting. Most are not, IMO-- hence the well known reputations of some media outlets as "extremely conservative", and others as "extremely liberal".

Reporters are not typically considered as any kind of experts in reading or interpreting highly complex medical records. A smart reporter, IMO, would hire a reputable and RELEVANT health care professional to review medical records, knowing that they weren't able to understand the "culture and traditions" of a medical record, all of the many abbreviations, technical health information, labs, etc.

For instance, I wrote extensively on a case involving a brain and spinal cord injury. I have a lot of knowledge and expertise in this area (and have served as an expert witness in this area), but I also had a neurosurgeon AND a neurologist review my writing and the information sources, as well as my scientific references, to make sure I hadn't misrepresented anything, or interpreted something incorrectly. And to add their "take" on the case.

Another example is the History of the Present Illness (HPI) that was written about by a reporter upthread, who apparently got that record fragment from an unidentified source. It was attempted to be presented as an "ah ha" moment, but the record fragment was taken out of context. Most health professionals would recognize that right away. I don't think the reporter took the time to find out what significance an HPI has. JMO.
 
From your perspective, perhaps you could explain the meaning of the term "working diagnosis". This and some more well researched articles use this modifier, but I don't think most of the general public understands what this means. There seems to be a lot of assumptions on the part of the parents and some of the public that this was a definitive diagnosis.

(When my child was given a "working diagnosis" of a different disorder, it was explained to me that this was a preliminary diagnosis pending confirmation through more extensive confirmatory testing. The physician referred to it as his "best guess. In my child's case, testing proved it to be incorrect and we moved on with further diagnostic testing.)

I think that's a pretty accurate definition. "Educated guess."

For complex and "emerging" new syndromes and diseases, there is a period of scientific uncertainty in the process to develop definitive diagnostic criteria that is agreed upon in a consensus manner by communities of specialists. Until there is a consensus model of diagnosis and treatment, it's all "theory."

I'm not trying to be controversial or start a storm, but a few examples of these "emerging" diagnoses historically are Lyme disease, chronic fatigue syndrome, mitochondrial disease, fibromyalgia, and various other rather obscure genetic and metabolic syndromes. (I'm not suggesting or implying that these don't "exist", but that it has taken a very long time for the medical and scientific communities to come to any kind of consensus on these conditions.)

The Tufts metabolic doc (Korson or something) had a good explanation when he described providers as "lumpers and splitters". Suffice to say that for the diagnosis of mitochondrial disease, there is little across-the-board consensus among experts as to what the diagnostic criteria is, or isn't, since the disease has such tremendous variability in presentation and progress. If the experts cannot even agree as to what the diagnostic criteria is, it's unlikely they will come to consensus as to how to best treat patients that they think "have" it.

All of health care runs on the consensus model-- and that is even how reimbursement is handled. If you are an "outlier" as a provider, you will have a hard time justifying your decisions and practice (and getting paid), UNLESS you funnel your "outlier" ideas and treatments through valid, established scientific studies (including institutional review boards). That is the "ethical" way to be an "outlier".

Korson recognized that this approach made him a “lumper,” meaning he was more willing to lump patterns of symptoms together to get to a diagnosis, even if the patient did not have the classical markers associated with the illness. Conversely, he felt others, including some at Children’s, were “splitters,” meaning they avoided making a diagnosis if the patient did not have the classic markers.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/12/15/justina/vnwzbbNdiodSD7WDTh6xZI/story.html

Here are some additional definitions of differential diagnosis (same as a working diagnosis).
working diagnosis
Preliminary diagnosis, provisional diagnosis Decision-making A diagnosis based on experience, clinical epidemiology, and early confirmatory evidence provided by ancillary studies–eg, radiologic findings; WDs allow early disease management, while awaiting special or more definitive studies–eg, immunoperoxidase stains or results from a reference lab.

working diagnosis provisional diagnosis of the most likely nature of a disease (prior to confirmation by laboratory diagnosis and/or other test results)

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/working+diagnosis

A differential diagnosis (sometimes abbreviated DDx, ddx, DD, D/Dx, or ΔΔ) is a systematic diagnostic method used to identify the presence of an entity where multiple alternatives are possible (and the process may be termed differential diagnostic procedure), and may also refer to any of the included candidate alternatives (or candidate conditions).

This method is essentially a process of elimination or at least a process of obtaining information that shrinks the "probabilities" of candidate conditions to negligible levels, by using evidence such as symptoms, patient history, and medical knowledge to adjust epistemic confidences in the mind of the diagnostician (or, for computerized or computer-assisted diagnosis, the software of the system).

There are various methods of performing a differential diagnostic procedure, but in general, it is based on the idea that one begins by considering the most common diagnosis first: a head cold versus meningitis, for example. As a reminder, medical students are taught the Occam's razor adage, "When you hear hoofbeats, look for horses, not zebras," which means look for the simplest, most common explanation first. Only after ruling out the simplest diagnosis should the clinician consider more complex or exotic diagnoses.

Differential diagnosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In medicine, a differential diagnosis is a diagnosis which examines all of the possible causes for a set of symptoms in order to arrive at a diagnosis. For example, if a patient presents with a runny nose, doctors might consider causes like hay fever and colds in the differential diagnosis in an attempt to arrive at the right diagnosis. Many doctors use this system of diagnosis in their practices, and some doctors known as diagnosticians actually specialize in it.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-differential-diagnosis.htm

I wanted to add one more example, since it is easier to understand the historical progress of where we started from, and where we are today.

For those old enough to remember, think back to the late 70's and 80's, when a mysterious new illness was presenting in populations of gay men. We went from describing the improbable prevalence and outbreaks as "random", to understanding the effects of air travel on diseases spreading. But then, inexplicably, kids with hemophilia and sickle cell started showing up with the same immune suppression symptoms, along with some trauma patients and surgical patients, and scientists knew there had to be a blood-borne source of the infection.

For a while we called this new illness an unknown autoimmune disorder, and tried to make it conform to known syndromes, both genetic and community acquired. Then scientists identified HTLV-3. After many years, we finally have a well described set of diagnostic criteria for HIV/ AIDS, a consensus for how we refer to these conditions, and scientifically based outcome studies as to how best to treat it in various populations. We screen blood donors to protect vulnerable populations receiving transfusions. Look how far we've come in managing this "emerging disease". Now HIV is mostly considered a manageable condition, rather than an immediate death sentence.
 
We have no way to know exactly what kind of records, nor how comprehensive the records were, nor what may have been omitted, that were purportedly provided to reporters. And reporters are not all unbiased and balanced in their reporting. Most are not, IMO-- hence the well known reputations of some media outlets as "extremely conservative", and others as "extremely liberal".

Reporters are not typically considered as any kind of experts in reading or interpreting highly complex medical records. A smart reporter, IMO, would hire a reputable and RELEVANT health care professional to review medical records, knowing that they weren't able to understand the "culture and traditions" of a medical record, all of the many abbreviations, technical health information, labs, etc.

......

Exactly. That was going to be my point in the improbable event that a reference to an independent reporter or commentator stating "i have reviewed all of Justina's medical records as provided to me by the family" were to surface. Not only have I never seen or heard such as statement, it would be impossible to verify the accuracy and completeness of any possible records submitted.
 
I think that's a pretty accurate definition. "Educated guess."

.....
Thank you for your insight and expertise. Your explanation is very similar to what my child's doctors have explained in the past. In our case, treatment was begun based on the working diagnosis as it was considered safe and reasonable to do so. My understanding is that the mainstay of treatment for Mito is vitamins and supplements (the other procedures and treatments Justina had may have been for complications of the presumed Mito or other unrelated issues) so I assume that it would be considered safe and reasonable to initiate treatment in this manner. (Possibly leading the parents to conclude that this was a confirmed definitive diagnosis?)
 
Here's a story from abc that describes what meds Justina was on when she arrived at BCH. Some were discontinued, based on the results of her examinations, but the vitamin cocktail was continued.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/advoca...ier-held-state-pysch/story?id=22312907&page=3

It is puzzling that she was being given both Metoprolol, for high blood pressure, and Midodrine, for low blood pressure. Surely they weren't prescribed by the same doctor?
I would never take, nor administer to my child, medications which I had not researched for side effects, and for 'can I take drug a and drug b at the same time'.
 
From her mother's own description, quoted earlier here in other posts, no "fantastic results" were happening while she was on the mito treatment BEFORE she was hospitalized at BCH, either. She was very ill, and that is why she was taken there.

And because neither Tufts nor BCH nor the Framingham or Thompson facilities are allowed to reveal Justina's past and current medical history, no lay person can say with confidence that she is getting worse. . . or better. We simply do not have the information, and drawing inferences from photos is speculative at best.

But, in my opinion: if the poor kid were truly at death's door, she would have been sent back to a hospital, not moved to a step-down facility like the one in Thompson. That she has been moved there seems to me to indicate that she is indeed doing better.

I can look at her current photos and videos with my own two eyes, thank you very much.
I don't need to see her medical records to figure out she isn't running around. She is in a wheelchair, her hairline is receding, her legs look swollen. Her speech is barely legible.
 
IMO that could be the result of dragging her from doctor to doctor with zero coordination of medical care.

That has stopped.





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And she has such a miraculous improvement.
Didn't she?
First of all, you don't know what is a result of. Beta blockers have multiple uses. In her it was prescribed for a rapid heart rate.
She has tachycardia per what her family says. If she does have a rapid heart rate, it's extremely irresponsible to stop medication for it, to say the least.
 
And she has such a miraculous improvement.

Didn't she?

First of all, you don't know what is a result of. Beta blockers have multiple uses. In her it was prescribed for a rapid heart rate.

She has tachycardia .


If she has been over medicated and medicated for things she didn't have, sorting that out would be extremely helpful when evaluating what exactly her symptoms actually are.
IMO that would need to be done before even attempting to get a handle on her medical issues....whatever they are.

I don't know if her speech is any better, worse or the same without evidence of her baseline before she was admitted at Children's. Do you have any evidence of her speaking previously...like when her parents claim she could speak perfectly fine? I'd be very interested in hearing it

Her hair ...well I'm not going to repeat myself about her hair.

please provide link to her medical records that indicate she has a rapid heart rate and suffers from tachycardia ?




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If she has been over medicated and medicated for things she didn't have, sorting that out would be extremely helpful when evaluating what exactly her symptoms actually are.
IMO that would need to be done before even attempting to get a handle on her medical issues....whatever they are.

I don't know if her speech is any better, worse or the same without evidence of her baseline before she was admitted at Children's. Do you have any evidence of her speaking previously...like when her parents claim she could speak perfectly fine? I'd be very interested in hearing it

Her hair ...well I'm not going to repeat myself about her hair.

please provide link to her medical records that indicate she has a rapid heart rate and suffers from tachycardia ?




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Well since you cut off the part that she has tachycardia "per what her family says" what link do you expect me to provide?
Her family says things that are published in msm.
Per rules of this site that should be good enough.
I obviously don't have access to her actual medical records.
 
Well since you cut off the part that she has tachycardia "per what her family says" what link do you expect me to provide?

Her family says things that are published in msm.

Per rules of this site that should be good enough.

I obviously don't have access to her actual medical records.


I'm sorry jjenny. I don't know how I missed it...but I did.

I just can't consider her parents credible at this point....But you're correct, they said it and it's been printed in the MSM ...that's good enough for this website.... It just isn't good enough for me.




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"But the family showed Fox CT proof that every procedure and prescription was sanctioned by doctors, including Tufts Medical Center specialist Dr. Mark Korson."

Read more: http://foxct.com/2013/11/19/hospita...-after-parents-argue-diagnosis/#ixzz32f9AxE00

Also from this story:

An April report written by a Boston Children’s physician shows that the hospital pulled Justina off many of her prior medications when she was admitted.

It reads:

“Due to concerns regarding Justina’s regressive behavior changes around her family, the multiple medical procedures and care episodes she has been through … and both parents’ resistance towards recommended treatment plans for Justina … a child protection team was convened.”




Read more: http://foxct.com/2013/11/19/hospita...-after-parents-argue-diagnosis/#ixzz32fO7xp8Z
 
Also from this story:

An April report written by a Boston Children’s physician shows that the hospital pulled Justina off many of her prior medications when she was admitted.

It reads:

“Due to concerns regarding Justina’s regressive behavior changes around her family, the multiple medical procedures and care episodes she has been through … and both parents’ resistance towards recommended treatment plans for Justina … a child protection team was convened.”




Read more: http://foxct.com/2013/11/19/hospita...-after-parents-argue-diagnosis/#ixzz32fO7xp8Z

And? Resistance toward treatment plan-we already know what that was. BCH wanted to treat her for somatoform and parents refused. I would have refused as well if I were in their shoes.
Multiple medical procedures? Some people need multiple medical procedures.
Why exactly did BCH think these procedures were not needed? All of the procedures were approved by doctors and insurance. This child had multiple health issues. If parents didn't do these procedures they would have been accused of neglect.
Regressive behavior changes around family? I guess that is in the eye of the beholder, as she doesn't seem improved after being taken away from her family.
And that is all she wrote. There doesn't appear to be some super secret evidence that DCF has, as being claimed around here.
 
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