Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #5

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To those that feel that religious preferences should be honored where do you come down on the family who does not believe in blood transfusions for a child in the face of serious bleeding.

I was talking to a woman is Jewish and she says that in Jewish law food and water must never be withheld so she agrees that Jahi should have been fed at CHO because religious beliefs take precedence over physician instructions.

I am learning a lot about this.
 
Here's my issue....I want to be fully informed and have a say in the care my child receives. I don't want my parental rights stripped for any reason when admitted to a hospital for any reason.

I've been quite alarmed lately and at the rate it's occurring. Another case I was following here about a girl locked away in a psy ward for a year after a visit to another hospital. That case really threw me for a loop.

I want to be fully informed, as well, whether it's regarding my rights as a patient or my rights as the parent of my child who is a patient.

Sincere question: in what way do you believe that the mother's rights in this situation have been violated and/or have not been honored?
 
That's not the question.

How many people know that when they sign consent? Is it in standard forms her mother signed when admitted?

I'm in NJ. That's not the way it is here. I'm seriously asking if the people in California know this going in? Do they sign something agreeing to it?

Brain and cardiac death are considered equal in terms of defining death. They are both irreversible. So, no there would be no consent form to sign. Your original post was concerning removal of life support and physicians having that option over the parents.

There is no life support in Jahi case, because there is no life. Jahi's heart failed and her brain died. They were able to restart her heart beating and attach a vent to keep oxygen flowing and blood circulating. So there is a vent attached to a deceased body. It is not "life" support.
 
I'm a little confused? The consensus seems to be to dismiss what her family and lawyer says happened.

So what happened in the 30 minutes between fine in recovery and bleeding way too much in the ICU?

as an icu/cvicu nurse I can say that I would guess this would be transfer to the unit, report to the nurse, and hooking to monitors.:twocents:
 
that is why it's so important to outline & file with the Court what you want medical science to do with your body once declared "dead".

I hope this case helps all of us understand the importance & making it known & writing it down & filing with the Courts as a Living Will

Agreed.

But what I feel that many others aren't considering is the bigger picture.

Example:
Family battling Children’s Hospital to bring teen home for Christmas - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

How does this happen?

Or the other case with the brain dead pregnant woman?

Loved ones SHOULD have rights.
 
From reading over the past couple days/weeks it seems these surgeries are pretty routine when done in adults. imo

Hopefully because Jahi was a big girl she wasn't seen as a little adult!
 
Brain and cardiac death are considered equal in terms of defining death. They are both irreversible. So, no there would be no consent form to sign. Your original post was concerning removal of life support and physicians having that option over the parents.

There is no life support in Jahi case, because there is no life. Jahi's heart failed and her brain died. They were able to restart her heart beating and attach a vent to keep oxygen flowing and blood circulating. So there is a vent attached to a deceased body. It is not "life" support.

Sigh, it's death support.
I can't even think about it.
Moo
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as an icu/cvicu nurse I can say that I would guess this would be transfer to the unit, report to the nurse, and hooking to monitors.:twocents:

Thank you nurse! Long time no see!!! :)

I meant with the reported bleeding.
 
Well now, we're getting somewhere.

I think people need to be fully informed and know their rights or lack of, don't you? It should be part of all hospital admittance signed consent forms. If it were...we wouldn't be here.

I don't know what you are getting at. Mr. ST had major surgery last month. His carotid artery was blocked. We knew all of the risks prior to surgery, including the fact that he could have a stoke. We accepted those risks. We spent an entire day prior to surgery to go over everything, and accept the risks.
 
I was thinking about this: If 6 different physicians told me I had cancer and the evidence is indisputable, I have several choices. I can believe them and seek treatment. I can give up and just watch myself wither away. I can choose not to believe them and seek 100 more opinions.

If I choose to ignore medical advice of all the experts, do I then have a right to sue them because I didn't believe them? Or I was stupid? Or they didn't hold my hand and make me see the light and drive me to the specialists?

Eta: This is my attempt to draw somewhat of a parallel. Hope it made sense.
 
Thank you nurse! Long time no see!!! :)

I meant with the reported bleeding.

if she was bleeding right then and there I would call this a sentinel event imhoo.. that of course being said not knowing what is in the medical records as they have not been released (re: nursing care documentation like did they ring the call bell before using the suction, etc) I think there is a lot we don't know yet. In every icu I have ever worked in we also have monitor watchers that are outside the room so even if these nurses were allegedly in report at the time (we do have to do that you know...) there is always someone watching including, usually a floater that monitors during report.:twocents:
 
What if the family says that their loved one is dead and should be buried now? The doctors say no, he's just sedated, he will wake up after a while. The family disagrees because the person looks dead to them. Who should have the right to decide?
 
Gotcha. :seeya:

But then don't you think this case could set the precedence as to when "enough is enough"? Coming to terms with death and going through the grieving process - aka "accepting"- comes at different times for each and every person suffering the loss of a loved one.

But "we" as a society have entrusted our medical professionals (with all of their background and research) to KNOW when death (as medically defined) has come.

Religion can't play a part in when death is decided as then you're opening up each and every person to decide when their loved one has died and setting the precedence that the family has final rights to do what they will with what has medically been declared a corpse.

That is where (IMO) the dignity piece comes in.

I will be the FIRST to admit that I honest to God could see myself in this mothers shoes. My grandfather was murdered when I was 5 (shot in the head during a robbery) and as a result I have severe reactions to accepting death. I remember conversations in that hospital room of when he was declared dead. I remember my Grandmother literally dropping to her knees screaming in agony when they told her he was brain dead.

At 5 I had no concept of what that meant. In my 5 year old mind, he was FINE. What I saw was him breathing, heart beating, etc. so I remember crying and telling my family to not allow them to "let him die".

With that being said, there WERE family members (his children, my mother included) who HAD to take the reigns and literally force my Grandmother to accept that he would NEVER want to be kept alive artificially if he was not going to possibly live a quality life.

In having conversations about this case with my husband he and my other family members KNOW how I would be. However, they have all assured me that they wouldn't allow this to happen. My husband said to me "I would PHYSICALLY remove you from the hospital if I had to, have you sedated, and sign what I had to to ensure my children die a dignified and peaceful (as much as possible) death". He said "we may end up divorced over it, but I'd rather you believe I was the cause of their death than to allow you to psychotically try to extend the inevitable because you couldn't accept that they were gone".

I was literally crying and felt like throwing up. However, as irrational I know I would be, I am so very thankful there are others who COULD make a rational decision should one HAVE to be made. I simply should NOT be allowed to make that type of decision and I accept that. :(

Excellent post.

Seems strange ...we can not come to a consensus as to exactly when life begins and ends yet in my mind it's really rather simple. We have made it much more complicated than it needs to be. IMO
 
do we (the planet) want to care for all these brain dead bodies?

who's going to care for them?

who's gonna pay for them?

will they ever "wake up" & enjoy life?

Really? Human life is precious

IMO I don't believe many people would want to keep their brain dead loved ones around....and if a select few did...most brain dead people wouldn't last very long anyway...it really is a non issue in reality, IMO
 
I don't think the situation would have been improved by having the surgeon discuss a brain death policy and ask her mother to sign a consent for removal from a ventilator for both cardiac and brain death exactly in detail PRIOR to the surgery, with full expectation that everything would go smoothly as planned, do you?
 
I want to be fully informed, as well, whether it's regarding my rights as a patient or my rights as the parent of my child who is a patient.

Sincere question: in what way do you believe that the mother's rights in this situation have been violated and/or have not been honored?

Honestly I think she just needed more time to come to grips with what happened. I think the hospital strong armed her and she dug her heels in and gathered support...the hospital IMO made a huge mistake hiring the PR dude too.
I think time and compassion was the key. This child isn't going to last very long.
 
IMO I don't believe many people would want to keep their brain dead loved ones around....and if a select few did...most brain dead people wouldn't last very long anyway...it really is a non issue in reality, IMO



OMG! Yes they Are.. THAT IS the very issue at this point!
 
.

In the meantime, what about the mother of a very sick child who needs special medical care and is referred to CHO? Will she be scared away by the claims that the hospital "kills" or "executes" children? Those kinds of sensationalist claims by the lawyers and the family could do serious harm in my opinion. I have a lot of sympathy for their grief, and I understand their anger, but I think they need to reign it in.

That is what concerns me also. Let's not forget putting a child "on death row" as if she is being punished. If you do understand brain death and that the child had been diagnosed as such you could take her statements as the hospital unhooks life support from a living child because they are in a coma.
 
Excellent post.

Seems strange ...we can not come to a consensus as to exactly when life begins and ends yet in my mind it's really rather simple. We have made it much more complicated than it needs to be. IMO

Thank you. I agree it can be rather complicated as to when life begins and ends...but there has to be SOME threshold set, otherwise it's a free for all. We can't allow each and every person when to decide they are ready to hand over a corpse...we simply can't.
I believe the threshold has been set as to the fact that brain dead = deceased. She has a death certificate, correct? So the family's "rights" of any medical decision making should have ended when she was declared dead. Nothing they did was going to change that she was dead, nor is any fickle law changing going to truly bring someone back from the dead.

I don't have answers as to how laws could change this, but I do know that I (without a doubt) don't believe parents should be allowed to move their child's body around to anyone who will take her and allow them to watch her body decompose.

It's a horrible situation, that's for sure.
 
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