Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #8

[Quester]

:silenced:

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1/18/14; [JM]'s functioning hypothalamus: some social and scientific considerations
By S. N. Sansalone, with edits by Paul A. Byrne, M.D
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/byrne/140118

 

[Nore]

SBM

BeginnersLuck
In the Joseph M baby case you wiki-linked above,
"On March 14, 2011, Priests for Life announced it had secured a transfer to .... a non-profit Catholic hospital in St. Louis, MO, declaring victory in the "battle against the medical bureaucracy in Canada."[19] Priests for Life also announced it would pay for Joseph's medical care at Cardinal Glennon." BBM SBM

I understand that to mean that the St.L hosp billed for services, and Preists for Life org said it would pay for the care,
not that the hosp agreed to provide free care or agreed not to bill.

In various articles (no links) I've read est. of daily cost from $2000-$10,000 per day
for 'care' that Jahi would need. Not chicken feed.

How, when, why, under what circumstances a med facility would agree in advance
to accept transfer-in of a brain dead, vent 13 y/o patient ---
a pt who could conceivably cont in that condition for days, weeks, months, possibly years --
and not to bill for services, which could run into hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Did this magical, mysterious med facility agree to accept pt for a limited time (two weeks?)
or up to a certain $$$ cap?

Just wondering. :seeya:

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Hi, I have the same "wonders" you do. What all would have to be done to a dead person? change the bed once a day, dust the room, inject a few "minerals etc." a couple time a day, and plenty of air conditioning. There is bound to be some odor no matter what they give her short of formaldehyde (sp). Her body is going to show signs of decomp though at a slower rate. I could never subject my child to this and I'm sure you couldn;t either. All of a sudden I read they did not insert a gtube. I know why. :loveyou:

 

[ItsJustaName]

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Hi, I have the same "wonders" you do. What all would have to be done to a dead person? change the bed once a day, dust the room, inject a few "minerals etc." a couple time a day, and plenty of air conditioning. There is bound to be some odor no matter what they give her short of formaldehyde (sp). Her body is going to show signs of decomp though at a slower rate. I could never subject my child to this and I'm sure you couldn;t either. All of a sudden I read they did not insert a gtube. I know why. :loveyou:

Any facility that took her would also be subjecting their staff to pretty horrendous working conditions. Ethically, I wonder if nurses could refuse to provide care to a corpse? Certainly if I was a unionized nurse I would be protesting to my union rep.

 

[Elainera]

Maybe she is at a facility that researches brain dead patients and possible treatments? Takes care of them in exchange for being allowed to run experimental drugs or something? Or is that against the law?

 

[BuzzieCat]

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Hi, I have the same "wonders" you do. What all would have to be done to a dead person? change the bed once a day, dust the room, inject a few "minerals etc." a couple time a day, and plenty of air conditioning. There is bound to be some odor no matter what they give her short of formaldehyde (sp). Her body is going to show signs of decomp though at a slower rate. I could never subject my child to this and I'm sure you couldn;t either. All of a sudden I read they did not insert a gtube. I know why. :loveyou:

If they're trying to keep her body in some kind of viable condition on the medically hopeless chance that her brain will come back to life, then she needs to be turned multiple times a day, receive medications to make up for the functions her brain is no longer performing (temperature regulation etc). Her vital signs will need to be monitored regularly to make sure they are not dipping too low. Technically I guess her body is alive though deteriorating, even though her brain is dead, thanks to the artificial machine. The medical professionals who grace WS can explain it in more detail than I can. This has to be pretty expensive, and I can't imagine donations have covered it unless there have been more donations than have been publicly reported.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

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Hi BeginnersLuck, My son came under medicaid after his health insurance and his wifes coverage on him ran out. They did require him to be alive......:seeya:

Thank you for sharing about your loss Nore. You are brave and strong to be able to be on the thread and talk about these things. I know there have been some things that may be hard for some that have been discussed. I don't know if I know what acceptance is. I still grieve deeply for my mother and it's been 35 years. I was a confused child.

Can you share with me how the insurance would know that Jahi is deceased or explain to me what you mean by requiring to be alive to pay for care if a deceased in on ventilator support?

I just see them trying to work around this issue like they have with everything else.

 

[joypath]

Any facility that took her would also be subjecting their staff to pretty horrendous working conditions. Ethically, I wonder if nurses could refuse to provide care to a corpse? Certainly if I was a unionized nurse I would be protesting to my union rep.

IF the "facility" is accredited by JACHO (TJC as it is now known, "The Joint Commission"), they MUST have a policy in place to deal with employees who MORALLY or RELIGIOUSLY "decline" to perform a procedure (from back in the "abortion days"

 

[BeginnersLuck]

:silenced:

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1/18/14; [JM]'s functioning hypothalamus: some social and scientific considerations
By S. N. Sansalone, with edits by Paul A. Byrne, M.D
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/byrne/140118

From your link:

While it is true that Jahi was not self-regulating her body temperature for most of December, a sign of lost hypothalamic function, there is also the later, additional fact in that regard... the fact that keeps getting publicly ignored. Direct observers, including at least one doctor, had noted in early January that Jahi had actually regained her ability to self-regulate core body temperature. This empirical "data point" is rendered increasingly significant in its dynamic of sudden reappearance. In other words, that function of the brain had actually restored itself to working order, and did so weeks after that particular brain function had earlier supposedly stopped. That is remarkable. Such a dynamic, or trend, of "restored" brain function extraordinarily, scientifically, is not consistent with "irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain," but rather suggests a degree of recovery from brain injury

Can someone please enlighten me on what physician that examined her, stated that Jahi was able to regulate her own body temperature?

Also, are there medications that help her to maintain body temperature because the brain isn't doing so. In other words, WTF is he talking about?

Also Byrne, instead of continuing to bash CHO, can you be honest and include that fact that this is policy of all hospitals and answer the question as to why it was so hard for them to find another hospital to take Jahi?

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Maybe she is at a facility that researches brain dead patients and possible treatments? Takes care of them in exchange for being allowed to run experimental drugs or something? Or is that against the law?

BBM: This, plus a piece of paper signed by mom saying she was donating her daughter to science, IMO would be how they could say their actions are legal and justifiable.

They would have to admit she was dead though I would think.

 

[CHERIE.T]

Iirc, her body temp. is being kept within a warm range by extra blankets.
I read that here on one of our threads.

 

[Elley Mae]

In the court declaration filed by Flori, she said any measures to help Jahi will only slow post-mortem deterioration. Jahi's body is also unable to regulate her temperature and "blankets are needed to maintain a temperature of greater than 35 degrees Celsius (95 degrees Fahrenheit)."

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-jahi-mcmath-body-deteriorating-20140108,0,4831276.story

bbm

 

[joypath]

From your link:
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/byrne/140118


Can someone please enlighten me on what physician that examined her, stated that Jahi was able to regulate her own body temperature?

Heidi Flori, M.D.....and said under OATH the OPPOSITE!

Also, are there medications that help her to maintain body temperature because the brain isn't doing so. In other words, WTF is he talking about?

Not really in this case, he's playing his OWN AGENDA!

Also Byrne, instead of continuing to bash CHO, can you be honest and include that fact that this is policy of all hospitals and answer the question as to why it was so hard for them to find another hospital to take Jahi?

AND I take GREAT issue with this gem: " This empirical "data point" is rendered increasingly significant in its dynamic of sudden reappearance"

NO SCIENTIST bases JUDGEMENT on "one data point".....PLUS if HE were the one claiming her temp. rise & TOOK IT....he broke state law practicing medicine without a license!!!

 

[ceecee30]

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Hi, I have never reached acceptance on either of mine. I guess I am glad I never was angry at anyone but the Doctor who left my son in ER. to go out on his boat! To my dying day I will never understand why I lost what I prayed so hard for..~~ P.S. Doctor lost his son in boating accident 2 yrs. later. Book by Dr. Ross is excellent. First one I read.:seeya:

P.S. Doctor lost his son in boating accident 2 yrs. later - Karma?????

That book by Dr Ross is excellent, it's being used as a non essential text book in my diploma on mental health. I'm going to make myself sound like a crazy cat lady but it was extremely useful when I lost one of my darling furbabies

I'm very sorry about your son x x x

 

[Elainera]

P.S. Doctor lost his son in boating accident 2 yrs. later - Karma?????

That book by Dr Ross is excellent, it's being used as a non essential text book in my diploma on mental health. I'm going to make myself sound like a crazy cat lady but it was extremely useful when I lost one of my darling furbabies

I'm very sorry about your son x x x

bbm - Same here! Don't feel crazy! :seeya:

 

[Nore]

If they're trying to keep her body in some kind of viable condition on the medically hopeless chance that her brain will come back to life, then she needs to be turned multiple times a day, receive medications to make up for the functions her brain is no longer performing (temperature regulation etc). Her vital signs will need to be monitored regularly to make sure they are not dipping too low. Technically I guess her body is alive though deteriorating, even though her brain is dead, thanks to the artificial machine. The medical professionals who grace WS can explain it in more detail than I can. This has to be pretty expensive, and I can't imagine donations have covered it unless there have been more donations than have been publicly reported.

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Hi Buzzie, they have to be turned every 4 hours to prevent pneumonia. Now this I did help with if girls were extra busy. They took temps yes. My son even played games with daughter, responded with his eyes~never wrong.Nurses spoke to him as normal kept him from losing his mind. Joe had locked in syndrome.

 

[Nore]

P.S. Doctor lost his son in boating accident 2 yrs. later - Karma?????

That book by Dr Ross is excellent, it's being used as a non essential text book in my diploma on mental health. I'm going to make myself sound like a crazy cat lady but it was extremely useful when I lost one of my darling furbabies

I'm very sorry about your son x x x

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Thank you so much. I also remembered pages when my 15yr. old "puppy" died. I never could have done what they did, even after he did pass.

 

[mymeow]

Any facility that took her would also be subjecting their staff to pretty horrendous working conditions. Ethically, I wonder if nurses could refuse to provide care to a corpse? Certainly if I was a unionized nurse I would be protesting to my union rep.

Absolutely!! And what about when she develops pneumonia or some other complication of being kept alive by machinery? Does an acute care hospital have to accept her for admission? I work at a Children's Hospital not far from the TBI facility where Jahi's body will reportedly be transferred. We are wondering if our Medical Director can refuse admission based on the fact that the patient is brain dead=dead.

 

[Nore]

AND I take GREAT issue with this gem: " This empirical "data point" is rendered increasingly significant in its dynamic of sudden reappearance"

NO SCIENTIST bases JUDGEMENT on "one data point".....PLUS if HE were the one claiming her temp. rise & TOOK IT....he broke state law practicing medicine without a license!!!

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Oh good!!! they are ABLE to take the blanket off that was keeping her temp up? What a bag of carp! They get a star! :floorlaugh:

 

[CHERIE.T]

In the court declaration filed by Flori, she said any measures to help Jahi will only slow post-mortem deterioration. Jahi's body is also unable to regulate her temperature and "blankets are needed to maintain a temperature of greater than 35 degrees Celsius (95 degrees Fahrenheit)."

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-jahi-mcmath-body-deteriorating-20140108,0,4831276.story

bbm

Thank you Elley Mae.

 

[Sedonia Sunset]

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Hi, I have the same "wonders" you do. What all would have to be done to a dead person? change the bed once a day, dust the room, inject a few "minerals etc." a couple time a day, and plenty of air conditioning. There is bound to be some odor no matter what they give her short of formaldehyde (sp). Her body is going to show signs of decomp though at a slower rate. I could never subject my child to this and I'm sure you couldn;t either. All of a sudden I read they did not insert a gtube. I know why. :loveyou:

I'm unclear on what would be the optimum temperature for her to stay at. Obviously 98.6 is the average live human temp, give or take a few tenths of degrees. For someone whose body is deteriorating, however, wouldn't a LOWER temperature be better in order to keep infection risk lower?

After one of my parents had surgery, I remarked to a nurse about how cold it was in the room afterward. It's ALWAYS cold, it seems, in most patient spaces. She said that it was deliberate, because bacteria prefers things to be nice and warm to thrive. It certainly made sense to me. They were not necessarily trying to lower body temperatures, but just helping to keep the rooms and patients from getting too warm.

OTOH, squashing a fever, depending on how high it is, is also squashing the body's natural defenses. All that activity means there's a battle going on inside between the immune system and "invaders". It doesn't FEEL very good, but a certain amount of that is often beneficial in the big picture.

SO, what's the consensus on temperatures? Post-surgery and ER areas may be a good idea to be cold, but I don't remember in-patient hospital rooms as being especially cold, so maybe it's only in a more susceptible environment that they do that.

Jahi's immune system is probably on high-alert, and THAT may be why her temperature was raised "by Jahi" (assuming we can take that tidbit as true). It really IS just a matter of time before an infection of one kind or another launches a DEFCON 1 attack that Jahi's body simply will NOT be able to withstand.