Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #8

[otto]

Yes it's a horrible reality...one that was told to the mom 54 ? days ago. A reality that was confirmed by some 6 doctors iirc.


Purely rhetorical how many days does this woman need before accepting her daughter isn't coming back?
Surely there is some type of physical change that points to non recovery.

:moo:

I'm sure there is and, in my opinion, it must be gruesome.

 

[Elainera]

Does anyone here really believe Jahi is going is come back to life? I'm just curious.

I understand the questions being asked and the different viewpoints, but I'm talking specifically about Jahi, not some other case that seems similar, but really isn't the same.

No I don't believe she will come back to life.

 

[Jacie Estes]

Has anyone seen the video posted on the FB page today? I don't think I can post it here but it is on FB.

 

[Frigga]

Has anyone seen the video posted on the FB page today? I don't think I can post it here but it is on FB.

Wow! I will be the first one to eat my hat- HAPPILY! How is this possible? It certainly didn't seem like an uncontrollable reflex to me! WOW!

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Has anyone seen the video posted on the FB page today? I don't think I can post it here but it is on FB.

If you read back two or three pages in the thread it is explained.

Those are spinal reflexes.

 

[MNSuz]

It is the cold stimuli video clip of the girl's foot. Again, this is a known response to stimuli not dependent on the brain stem.

This drives home the idea that there is a huge segment of the population that is unwilling to accept scientific fact. Are they being obtuse or do they not have the capacity to process higher levels of reasoning?


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[Jacie Estes]

Wow! I will be the first one to eat my hat- HAPPILY! How is this possible? It certainly didn't seem like an uncontrollable reflex to me! WOW!

I was noticing that her feet don't appear to be 'rotting away'. But maybe I am just being 'obtuse'; at least I am not rude.

 

[K_Z]

Has anyone seen the video posted on the FB page today? I don't think I can post it here but it is on FB.

Mods have said social media is ok, as long as it is clearly related to Jahi. I can post.

http://distilleryvesper0-8.ak.instagram.com/bc916f6c861511e39bfe12806b62c140_101.mp4

source for video clip:

https://www.facebook.com/keepJahiMcmathonlifesupport

And I will add that I also believe those are spinal reflexes. If you were to attach a peripheral nerve stimulator, such as the one we use in surgery, you could induce lots of twitching.

 

[K_Z]

I was noticing that her feet don't appear to be 'rotting away'. But maybe I am just being 'obtuse'; at least I am not rude.

You are correct. We don't know the date of that video, but her periphery appears pretty well perfused and well hydrated. Good skin care. No obvious breakdown.

She is wearing a sequential compression device on her calves. It's like a massager to stimulate venous return, and try to prevent sluggishness and clots in the lower extremity peripheral venous system. Her physical body is probably getting pretty good care.

 

[Donjeta]

Mods have said social media is ok, as long as it is clearly related to Jahi. I can post.

http://distilleryvesper0-8.ak.instagram.com/bc916f6c861511e39bfe12806b62c140_101.mp4

source for video clip:

https://www.facebook.com/keepJahiMcmathonlifesupport

And I will add that I also believe those are spinal reflexes. If you were to attach a peripheral nerve stimulator, such as the one we use in surgery, you could induce lots of twitching.

Going by the comments on that page, it's now been proven that doctors don't know anything and she's going to heal. Wonder if it makes a difference in the donations.

 

[al66pine]

Snipped from Donjeta's post 450 (and BBM):
I am not worried about the costs of Jahi's treatment.

Donj - Just to clarify your point above -
Are you saying in the great scheme of things, the cost (to CHO) of Jahi's illusion-of-life- measures *,
as only one patient, is not earth shattering?
Ok, agreed, CHO can continue as an entity, despite absorbing that cost for one patient for ~30? days like it did.

More of Donjeta's post, also BBM:
If it's funded by charitable donations those people can decide for themselves where they want to put their dollars. If they want to waste it or do not consider the futile treatment of a deceased person to be a waste, ok, fine with me.

Donj - Who are'those people' who can decide where to put $?
--- Is it CHO deciding to provide illusion-of-life actions* for Jahi?
I doubt if anyone at CHO voluntarily decided to deliberately provide illusion-of-life actions to Jahi,
except for perhaps a day for family's initial bedside gathering. **
---Are'those people' charitable donors making gifts to further CHO 's mission, medical treatment to children?
If 'those people' want to donate to the cause Jahi's family espouses, God sparking braindead back to life,
'those people' could donate --
--- to Jahi's family or similar families directly at web-based donation sites; or
--- if preferring to receive the fed inc. tax deduction, donate to churches or other 503c organizations,
w. sparking braindead back to life doctrine.

Donors did not give CHO money for expensive illusion-of-life actions for the braindead,
awaiting spark of life after 5 or 6 doctors declared death, imo.

JM2cts and I may be wrong. :seeya:

---------------------------------------------------------

* or continued-after-death-actions, heartbeat-prolonging actions, or death-delaying actions or
whatever term we want to use for actions that are not medical treatment of a living patient.

** Imo, the family extorted** CHO's further illusion-of-life-services.
---first, her family's private requests to CHO,
---her various family members' interviews to MSM to bash CHO,
---her family's public SM posts bashing CHO,
---her family's atty's demands to CHO,
---her family's atty's interviewsin MSM,
---her family's atty's filing lawsuit for TRO/injunction.
Even now, fam & atty seem to continue CHO-bashing.

ETA: Donjeta thank you for your several insightful posts tdy.

 

[K_Z]

Going by the comments on that page, it's now been proven that doctors don't know anything and she's going to heal. Wonder if it makes a difference in the donations.

I think it's really very, very sad. It's very sad when people assign meaning to something they have convinced themselves they understand as true, but don't have the knowledge or reasoning ability, or the intellectual curiosity to process and question. To me, that isn't "faith", it is an example of intellectual ignorance. Flat earth. The sun rotates around the earth, etc. Magical thinking again, IMO.

It's very, very sad. Even more frustrating that people like that vote, and sit on juries. If that doesn't scare every single person into being law abiding, I don't know what will.

 

[Donjeta]

Snipped from Donjeta's post 450 (and BBM):
I am not worried about the costs of Jahi's treatment.

Donj - Just to clarify your point above -
Are you saying in the great scheme of things, the cost (to CHO) of Jahi's illusion-of-life- measures *,
as only one patient, is not earth shattering?
Ok, agreed, CHO can continue as an entity, despite absorbing that cost for one patient for ~30? days like it did.

More of Donjeta's post, also BBM:
If it's funded by charitable donations those people can decide for themselves where they want to put their dollars. If they want to waste it or do not consider the futile treatment of a deceased person to be a waste, ok, fine with me.

Donj - Who are'those people' who can decide where to put $?

I meant the costs of care at the unnamed facility that she is in now. It is my understanding, (although I could be mistaken) that it is funded by some unknown people or institutions who are donating money for the purpose. I'm not advocating that CHO or any other hospital should pay for the care of brain dead people for longer periods of time but if a pro-life charity or a private individual wants to throw their money away, it's their right to do so I think.

 

[al66pine]

I meant the costs of care at the unnamed facility that she is in now. It is my understanding, (although I could be mistaken) that it is funded by some unknown people or institutions who are donating money for the purpose. I'm not advocating that CHO or any other hospital should pay for the care of brain dead people for longer periods of time but if a pro-life charity or a private individual wants to throw their money away, it's their right to do so I think.

Donj
Thx for your clarification above.

Agreed, then, if anybody wants to donate to Jahi's fam or facility where she currently is, have at it.

What I was getting at w my loooooooooong post a few min ago was,
I doubted if CHO donors would think the illusion-of-life actions as an approp use of the $.
:seeya:

 

[MNSuz]

I was noticing that her feet don't appear to be 'rotting away'. But maybe I am just being 'obtuse'; at least I am not rude.

Nor was I being rude. :kiss. She is receiving good skin care.


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[Donjeta]

Donj
Thx for your clarification above.

Agreed, then, if anybody wants to donate to Jahi's fam or facility where she currently is, have at it.

What I was getting at w my loooooooooong post a few min ago was,
I doubted if CHO donors would think the illusion-of-life actions as an approp use of the $.
:seeya:

No, probably not. But if it's Terri Schiavo Foundation or something similar paying for this the people donating know what they're getting for their money.

 

[Donjeta]

I think it's really very, very sad. It's very sad when people assign meaning to something they have convinced themselves they understand as true, but don't have the knowledge or reasoning ability, or the intellectual curiosity to process and question. To me, that isn't "faith", it is an example of intellectual ignorance. Flat earth. The sun rotates around the earth, etc. Magical thinking again, IMO.

It's very, very sad. Even more frustrating that people like that vote, and sit on juries. If that doesn't scare every single person into being law abiding, I don't know what will.

Yeah... I am kind of suspicious of the kind of faith that must deny scientific knowledge in order to exist.

 

[Wolfie]

Is there anybody who knows enough about tech to get a date off of that video? All we know is the date it was posted online, but there should be an actual date embedded in the video.

 

[21merc7]

I don't know how much of this is faith based. I still think a lot of it is denial, a lot of it is backing themselves in a corner as Donjeta put in better words than I can, and, most of it is inability to be the one that makes the decision. I know I could NOT pull the plug on my DD, no matter what. I just don't think I could.

I did meet a young man many years ago at work that thought he was messed up because of his family. Very faith based, and not a very popular faith. His parents (not in a big City, so this is one of the very small faith following groups that tend to live away from others) kept his deceased brother at home for 4 days praying for him to be returned to life after a fatal outdoor accident. Needless to say, 4 days was enough to let them know it was not going to happen, no need to explain the why... The young man was actually a fine, intelligent, hard working young man, this was just the largest mind altering experience that plagued him as he was there, saw it, participated in the prayers. He is married, working, and a good father now, but he was forever altered by his experiences then.

That is why I know faith here is just a thread to hang a hat on. I think they know what is going on, they backed themselves in, may want $$$, and seriously, what mom ever could make the choice?

 

[K_Z]

http://distilleryvesper0-8.ak.instagram.com/bc916f6c861511e39bfe12806b62c140_101.mp4

Changes in spinal reflex excitability in brain-dead humans.

The excitability of proprio- and exteroceptive spinal reflexes was monitored electrophysiologically and clinically during the occurrence of brain death (BD) in 8 patients. After a period of total reflex unresponsiveness, the soleus H reflex attained a steady-state excitability level in 2-6 h. The recovery cycle of this response regained its normal shape at 10-20 h.

Digital responses to mechanical stimulation of the foot sole were evident after 6-8 h.

It is concluded that the human spinal cord reacts to BD with a spinal shock, characterized by sequential recovery of reflex transmission. The overall timing of this process appears to be much shorter than that previously described for the spinal shock following traumatic transection of the cord, but the latter was never studied in the earliest phases.

http://www.researchgate.net/publica...inal_reflex_excitability_in_brain-dead_humans

KZ note, the area that they are stimulating in the video is L5- S1 dermatomes- quite low in the spinal column.

Dermatome (anatomy) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps the commenters on the facebook page should take a biology class with a lab?

Lessons from the pithed frog:

http://webs.wofford.edu/davisgr/bio342/reflex.htm

And this shows what muscles in isolation can do, given the right stimuli:

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...&mid=347E39DC02FFFDC7431F347E39DC02FFFDC7431F