GUILTY FL - Calyx, 16, & Beau Schenecker, 13, shot to death, Tampa, 27 Jan 2011 #4

[turaj]

just relistened to Damian Obregon...a few impressions that stand out to me:

-he should clearly consider another career or at least some role in this field that doesNOT require seeing and assessing patients.
-JS has the most detached and robotic defense team I have ever seen. Can't play well with the jury and while jury is not to form any judgements on the likeability or not of the attorneys it is hard not to.
-PS's email is very long but it makes very clear he understands that she could well commit suicide and describes leaving her alone for New Years eve and says something to the effect he only counts on her being "too weak" to be able to carry it out. Wow!
-Damian Obregon should be very concerned about the civil liability. Unfortnately every day mentally ill patients who are ready to do something terrible to themselves walk out of hospitals and clinics...they just can't monitor them and families try but I can't even imagine the stress involved with dealing with someone like JS...anyone being treated for MI should be on an automatic list whereby they cannot purchase a gun...sure they can still get one somewhere but not quite as easy as it was for JS. MI and guns don't go together ever!

 

[CarolinaMoon]

Off onto a side-journey here. Calyx, at 16 was deemed, by her mother, to have a problem. She didn't respect her mother and mouthed off at her.

Surprise!

Yes, JS has BPD. Yes, she seems to have been a semi-in-the-closet alcoholic, especially when PS was away on duty.

What hasn't been brought to light very much is that she is also Borderline Personality Disorder. (Hello, Jodi Arias and so many others we have seen.)

I dread to think what Calyx' life was like when Daddy was away. Did Mommy get drunk every night? Was she as verbally abusive as she was in her outbreaks in court? Did Calyx mature into the knowledge that Mommy was awful to her and did she know she couldn't live the normal life of a teenager outside the carpool and extra-curricular activities outside the house? Was she afraid to invite her friends to her house? Who knew what state her mother would be in when she got home? Would she go to everybody else's sleep-overs and not be able to reciprocate? Was school her escape from her home life?

I speak from experience here, but won't bother sharing the details.

How could she respect a mother who wouldn't help herself get better? No wonder she got mouthy. I'm sure the prospect of going to Groton was a joy for her towards the end of her life. If she could finish the school year and summer, she would be free of that toxic environment.

As for Beau, he was just growing into the realization that life could be different if his Mom weren't so sick. He didn't necessarily mimic his sister, he probably came into the realization all on his own.

For JS, it was all about her. There was no thought in her mind that she could help herself feel better. Rather, she relied on a medication cocktail to make things better. The children should respect her, even if she made their lives a proverbial hell. Why should she give up drinking and seeking painkillers if they made HER feel good for a while?

Yes, I realize she was very MI. Yes, I understand, having known a similar person (without the alcohol/painkillers) for more than 40 years. She waited and waited for the right medication to "cure" her. Her daughter and son got out of the family home as soon as they could, life was so unbearable. However, she never would have had the energy, lucidity, or ability to plan and carry out an execution on them.

Was/is JS legally insane? I don't think so, but am willing to be convinced elsewise.

 

[Abigail]

Trying to get caught up here -- but just watched the doc's testimony, and I am absolutely appalled. Absolutely livid!!

In December, he considers hospitalization, and Baker Acting, but he determines that even though she's mentioned suicide, he doesn't think she meets the criteria for Baker Act. The last time he sees her is Dec. 28 -- one FULL month before the murders. He gets yet another email from Parker, describing her continued deterioration. And he makes one phone call (ONE!!) on Jan 4 to check in on her. And then....he lets the rest of the month slip by...no follow up...she doesn't come to her appointments, this lady who has expressed suicidal thoughts, this lady he considered hospitalizing...and HE DOESN'T follow up??? He doesn't even check with Beth to see if she's still going to therapy? Even if she didn't meet the criteria for Baker Acting in December...didn't she cross the line on Jan 4 by non-compliance with her own medical care?

And I DO believe he gave her the OK to drink (up to 2 drinks) and take all those dreadful meds. This guy should be written up. And if I were Parker, I'd sue him!

 

[turaj]

Trying to get caught up here -- but just watched the doc's testimony, and I am absolutely appalled. Absolutely livid!!

In December, he considers hospitalization, and Baker Acting, but he determines that even though she's mentioned suicide, he doesn't think she meets the criteria for Baker Act. The last time he sees her is Dec. 28 -- one FULL month before the murders. He gets yet another email from Parker, describing her continued deterioration. And he makes one phone call (ONE!!) on Jan 4 to check in on her. And then....he lets the rest of the month slip by...no follow up...she doesn't come to her appointments, this lady who has expressed suicidal thoughts, this lady he considered hospitalizing...and HE DOESN'T follow up??? He doesn't even check with Beth to see if she's still going to therapy? Even if she didn't meet the criteria for Baker Acting in December...didn't she cross the line on Jan 4 by non-compliance with her own medical care?

And I DO believe he gave her the OK to drink (up to 2 drinks) and take all those dreadful meds. This guy should be written up. And if I were Parker, I'd sue him!

Totally agree...anyone that watched him can see how miserably he failed her and he should be removed from any interaction with clients...he also comes off as sort of "flippant" and just another case which for him I guess it was.

 

[turaj]

Looking forward...the defense is indicating they will only have another day or so of testimony...wow they must have shaved down their witnesses. If you look at court records they have so many docs etc.

Certainly we will hear from Eliz. Walsh her "therapist" who hopefully spent more than 20 minute per session with her. Also Dr. Gabriel White was was the supervising Dr. of Obregon (only a resident) and he sure has some "splaining" to do...
and of course no question probably their last witness will be Parker. They really walk a tightrope of pointing out how he made serious mistakes while not blaming him and attacking him. I don't know if this defense team is up for that challenge and if they can do it successfully. I have so many questions for him and only hope they ask some of them. And with him on the stand how will JS hold back if he is not telling the events or other things the way she sees them? I really feel Dr. Obregon was lying on the stand...I do think he gave her advice on suicide and getting it right the first time and he admitted that since he felt she was going to drink anyway...just limit it to one drink...hum or was that two? They will have to really talk with her and control the meds on the day when PS is on the stand as one more outburst will really send this judge into a rage himself. Frankly how can defense attorneys get a client under control like JS...they can't even look at her. They just want this to be over...I think they are clear they don't have much of a change of insanity. So...should be a fast moving and interesting week and doubt if the jury will be gone too long on this one but of course never know...it takes all 12.

 

[Whiteorchids]

Totally agree...anyone that watched him can see how miserably he failed her and he should be removed from any interaction with clients...he also comes off as sort of "flippant" and just another case which for him I guess it was.

I'm sure military get very good insurance so why didn't she find a new psychiatrist? she had choices.

 

[turaj]

I'm sure military get very good insurance so why didn't she find a new psychiatrist? she had choices.

I think she considered him perfect...young, little if any experience with patients, easy to up meds by phone without seeing her...no follow up with missed appointments and seemed to leave her to decide about suicide. My big question here again is for PS. He is not stupid and had to see that his wife was getting worse (he wrote this) and that this "Dr" and the plan was not working. I think he should have sought other help for himself and for her. I would not hire someone in training to provide me with any professional service let alone deal with my spouse's mental health. One look at his resume in 2010 and it was clear his wife needed much more experienced help and they could afford it. I wonder what he was thinking as he watched this guy on the stand...and was that the first time he saw him in person? Could be.
Most people I know that have a spouse in therapy or with serious medical issues (this was) want to meet the person treating their spouse. This can be accomplished easily without violating hippa.
I don't know if defense will go there with PS but I would love to hear his side of this...so far I have heard nothing from him other than she was at her worst but he took her word for being okay with him gone for 2 weeks. I think we all need to hear the story completely from his side but don't know if we will.

 

[CarolinaMoon]

I do believe we heard from PS from his e-mail to his family and to the psychiatrist. However, I agree that it would be good to hear from him on the stand to help us understand.

I have to believe he never would have contemplated JS murdering the children, I think he was more focused on her killing herself. This man walked a tightrope for years, balancing his sick wife, growing children, and demanding military career which supported his family.

 

[Whiteorchids]

Sadly, suicide turned into homicide. It was so easy to "off" her kids but not herself.

She told the officer she shot them because they were "mouthy" in her journal she wrote it was so they wouldn't suffer with depression. Who made her God to take the poor children's lives away?

After watching the gun shop videos I am sickened by her. She managed to pickup the gun after the 3 day waiting period (get out of bed) and was dressed nicely for the occasion.

I don't think the defense like her and what she did. It shows because they aren't trying very hard to defend her IMO.

 

[turaj]

it seems to me that a "medium" rating for potential suicide should require more than a phone after missed appointments. Something very off with both this Dr. and the system.

 

[Whiteorchids]

I think she just wanted the kids gone because they were creating problems in her marriage.

 

[LambChop]

it seems to me that a "medium" rating for potential suicide should require more than a phone after missed appointments. Something very off with both this Dr. and the system.

Well, the doctor was right. JS did not commit suicide even though she had any number of ways to do it, she did not harm herself. She could have used the gun, used medications (bottles were still full of pills), she could have started both cars in the garage, etc., etc., etc. It appears her mission was to hurt her husband for what she perceived as his plans to "abandon" her by way of divorce. By her comment to PS after she killed the children she appeared proud of having accomplished "getting his attention." jmo

 

[turaj]

This "dr" may have been right that she did not complete suicide but research indicates that the main mental disorders associated with increased risk of violence or homicide are schizophrenia, substance misuse and personality disorder. He should have also been looking at that and I do believe at some point he called her a medium or maybe minimal risk for homicide. The word was mentioned but written off but with as many disorders as JS presented with further probing should have been done. 20 minutes is really not enough for someone this sick. These guys have their textbook criteria for sure but a more experienced guy just might have gone the extra mile here and did something to intervene especially knowing the husband had been concerned enough to write a very lengthy email. This "Dr" could not even verify that even after a session where she confirmed interest in suicide that he took this to the supervising doctor. But he readily admitted that would have been the correct next step. He really needs to be held accountable for this case...again of course he is not responsible for the murders but I would not want him treating a family member of mine. This stuff is happening daily...I personally know where a temporary hold was done...person released and within less than one day the person committed suicide because someone left them alone...it is a very tough business and I know most professionals do the best they can but I was left with the feeling that this Dr. could have done much more. Could he have prevented this..well maybe and maybe just postponed it..never know.

 

[Whiteorchids]

Well, the doctor was right. JS did not commit suicide even though she had any number of ways to do it, she did not harm herself. She could have used the gun, used medications (bottles were still full of pills), she could have started both cars in the garage, etc., etc., etc. It appears her mission was to hurt her husband for what she perceived as his plans to "abandon" her by way of divorce. By her comment to PS after she killed the children she appeared proud of having accomplished "getting his attention." jmo

Why did she not mention to the Dr she felt homicidal? She never ever mentioned homicidal to the Dr. that may haver got her Baker acted. The criteria is feeling suicidal or homicidal. She was asked by Dr on occasion to be voluntarily committed but she refused. She didn't want to get help.

Instead of driving twice to the gun shop many miles away with her intent of murdering her children why didn't she drive herself to a hospital or psych hospital and self commit because of her homicidal/ suicidal feelings? Probably because SHE WANTED TO DO IT. Now I don't really believe she had suicidal feelings.

I believe this all transpired after she received the email from her brother and one of the family members forwarded or told her about the email PS sent to all the family members. She was asking for the letter. This was when her plan started.

I agree with LambChop this was to get even with PS. She's not suicidal now. Whys that? Shes now willing to fight through this trial. We saw her outburst yesterday in court when she disagreed with DR. She's fully aware of these proceedings.

I don't think this jury is sympathetic to JS and are not buying her insanity plea. She mentioned twice during police interrogations she didn't want to go to jail or prison so I'm sure she already hatched in her plan the insanity plea so she would go to a hospital.


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[CarolinaMoon]

Why did she not mention to the Dr she felt homicidal? She never ever mentioned homicidal to the Dr. that may haver got her Baker acted. The criteria is feeling suicidal or homicidal. She was asked by Dr on occasion to be voluntarily committed but she refused. She didn't want to get help.

Instead of driving twice to the gun shop many miles away with her intent of murdering her children why didn't she drive herself to a hospital or psych hospital and self commit because of her homicidal/ suicidal feelings? Probably because SHE WANTED TO DO IT. Now I don't really believe she had suicidal feelings.

I believe this all transpired after she received the email from her brother and one of the family members forwarded or told her about the email PS sent to all the family members. She was asking for the letter. This was when her plan started.

I agree with LambChop this was to get even with PS. She's not suicidal now. Whys that? Shes now willing to fight through this trial. We saw her outburst yesterday in court when she disagreed with DR. She's fully aware of these proceedings.

I don't think this jury is sympathetic to JS and are not buying her insanity plea. She mentioned twice during police interrogations she didn't want to go to jail or prison so I'm sure she already hatched in her plan the insanity plea so she would go to a hospital.


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Considering that it was clear she murdered her children, an insanity defense is the only chance she has.

In the Hemy Neumann case in Georgia, he tried the insanity defense, including those hallucinations he claimed to have. He was found guilty, but mentally ill. All that did for him was get him a stay in a psychiatric jail facility until his mental illness is under control. Then, off to regular prison he goes.

It's too bad more states, such as Florida, don't have this choice. She IS guilty, but mentally ill, IMHO, at this point in the trial.

 

[Whiteorchids]

Considering that it was clear she murdered her children, an insanity defense is the only chance she has.



In the Hemy Neumann case in Georgia, he tried the insanity defense, including those hallucinations he claimed to have. He was found guilty, but mentally ill. All that did for him was get him a stay in a psychiatric jail facility until his mental illness is under control. Then, off to regular prison he goes.



It's too bad more states, such as Florida, don't have this choice. She IS guilty, but mentally ill, IMHO, at this point in the trial.

CA doesn't have this as well. I agree MI but not insane. I thought she was until I carefully listened to the audio tapes, listened to all the testimony so far and watched the gun video.

My son 31 has bi-polar and Schizoaffective disorder. I have been going through this horrible illness for 10 years. So I'm all to familiar with this diagnosis. He is paranoid, delusional and always hears voices medicated or not. I've seen him in psychotic episodes (insane) and I'm am not seeing this here.

I think she was just really pissed at PS after those emails. The mix of alcohol and drugs contributed to more anger and helped her go through with the killings.


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[turaj]

CA doesn't have this as well. I agree MI but not insane. I thought she was until I carefully listened to the audio tapes, listened to all the testimony so far and watched the gun video.

My son 31 has bi-polar and Schizoaffective disorder. I have been going through this horrible illness for 10 years. So I'm all to familiar with this diagnosis. He is paranoid, delusional and always hears voices medicated or not. I've seen him in psychotic episodes (insane) and I'm am not seeing this here.

I think she was just really pissed at PS after those emails. The mix of alcohol and drugs contributed to more anger and helped her go through with the killings.

the detectives did ask her about voices and she no. she is far too gone and complex for me to even venture a guess what goes on in her mind...as indicated in post above the logical thing for her is quilty...to me its mental illness and she should be in a prison that can handle extreme mental illness. She is going to be a real challenge to any place she goes. So many of those drugs she had and no one really knows what was taken..so many can lead to feeling of worthlessness and suicide. I do feel for her attorneys...they have a hard time looking at her.

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the detectives did ask her about voices and she no. she is far too gone and complex for me to even venture a guess what goes on in her mind...as indicated in post above the logical thing for her is quilty...to me its mental illness and she should be in a prison that can handle extreme mental illness. She is going to be a real challenge to any place she goes. So many of those drugs she had and no one really knows what was taken..so many can lead to feeling of worthlessness and suicide. I do feel for her attorneys...they have a hard time looking at her.

 

[Whiteorchids]

the detectives did ask her about voices and she no. she is far too gone and complex for me to even venture a guess what goes on in her mind...as indicated in post above the logical thing for her is quilty...to me its mental illness and she should be in a prison that can handle extreme mental illness. She is going to be a real challenge to any place she goes. So many of those drugs she had and no one really knows what was taken..so many can lead to feeling of worthlessness and suicide. I do feel for her attorneys...they have a hard time looking at her.

She didn't go thru with her suicide she talked about many years only the murder of her babies. Talk is cheap action proves louder than words. If she really wanted to die she would have.

I hope she feels like crap on Mother Day. She didn't deserve the honor to be called a mother. I doubt she feels remorse the only time I've seen her cry and upset was when the judge got angry with her. Now and then I see her dabbing at her nose with a Kleenex. No tears. I'm sure it's for show.


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[Coldpizza]

Julie Schenecker's outburst halts her murder trial briefly

Schenecker's outburst came on the day her attorneys began to make the case she was insane on Jan. 27, 2011, when she killed her 16-year-old daughter, Calyx, and son, Beau, 13. Without disputing that she shot each child, once in the head and once in the mouth, they've argued that her mental problems — bipolar disorder with psychotic features — prevented her from knowing right from wrong. On Friday, they put her mental health care on trial.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts...case-in-julie-schenecker-murder-trial/2179024

 

[turaj]

She didn't go thru with her suicide she talked about many years only the murder of her babies. Talk is cheap action proves louder than words. If she really wanted to die she would have.

I hope she feels like crap on Mother Day. She didn't deserve the honor to be called a mother. I doubt she feels remorse the only time I've seen her cry and upset was when the judge got angry with her.


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I can't even imagine mother's day for someone like her...but then again doubt she is even aware of it. I would like to know what kind of relationship she had with her mother and what the family was like back in Iowa....so many questions for me as to how someone gets where she is. I don't think she has any emotions at all ...I see a shell sitting there.