FL - Fendra Molme, 11 months, dies in hot car while parents attend church, Palm Bay, May 2023 *arrest*

[imstilla.grandma]

This case is different from a parent believing they removed the child from the car so it may be more child neglect or endangerment than other cases we’ve seen.

Does it amount to manslaughter? I’m not convinced it does.

BTW, in a 2017 interview with David Diamond he said he no longer uses the phrase “Forgotten Baby Syndrome.” He says it’s not even a syndrome but rather a normal failure of an individual’s working memory, IOW the same memory failure as forgetting to stop for milk on the way home from work. Unfortunately it’s a bit late to remove that buzz word. I’ve always hated it.

Again, that doesn’t seem to be the case here and I don’t quite understand the manslaughter charge.

Right, and the arrest was so quick. It almost seems like they're using her case as an example. Your wording is a lot better than mine. Criminally negligent seems more appropriate but for her to be found guilty of manslaughter seems too harsh. I‘ve felt so many different ways. Why aggravated and not involuntary if they decided to charge her? Because of the baby’s age?

 

[Ontario Mom]

This case is different from a parent believing they removed the child from the car so it may be more child neglect or endangerment than other cases we’ve seen.

Does it amount to manslaughter? I’m not convinced it does.

BTW, in a 2017 interview with David Diamond he said he no longer uses the phrase “Forgotten Baby Syndrome.” He says it’s not even a syndrome but rather a normal failure of an individual’s working memory, IOW the same memory failure as forgetting to stop for milk on the way home from work. Unfortunately it’s a bit late to remove that buzz word. I’ve always hated it.

Again, that doesn’t seem to be the case here and I don’t quite understand the manslaughter charge.

I wonder if the charge is due to what was said by everyone they interviewed, both family and other folks at the church that day. Looking at the actual charge, the "aggravated" part seems to come from culpable negligence.

So for example (purely speculation to understand the charge) if some of the other kids in the car said "mom said to just leave her there and let her sleep" and no one else in the church came forward to say they were supposed to retrieve the child, that might be enough to show a course of conduct they consider careless or reckless disregard for the baby's safety.

Again, pure speculation. I know the mother said she believed someone else was supposed to get the baby but, if she didn't tell LE who was supposed to do that, and no one came forward to confirm, even if that's all it was, it still all comes back down to her.

jmo

 

[Ontario Mom]

Right, and the arrest was so quick. It almost seems like they're using her case as an example. Your wording is a lot better than mine. Criminally negligent seems more appropriate but for her to be found guilty of manslaughter seems too harsh. I‘ve felt so many different ways. Why aggravated and not involuntary if they decided to charge her? Because of the baby’s age?

I haven't seen any reason to assume she's being used as an example.

This site explains the aggravated part really well: Aggravated Manslaughter of a Child in Florida

 

[Lilibet]

Regarding charging this mother or any other parent, the WaPo article (likely behind a paywall) linked previously “Fatal Distraction,” had this to say…more at the link:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/fatal-distraction-forgetting-a-child-in-thebackseat-of-a-car-is-a-horrifying-mistake-is-it-a-crime/2014/06/16/8ae0fe3a-f580-11e3-a3a5-42be35962a52_story.html

There may be no act of human failing that more fundamentally challenges our society’s views about crime, punishment, justice and mercy. According to statistics compiled by a national childs’ safety advocacy group, in about 40 percent of cases authorities examine the evidence, determine that the child’s death was a terrible accident -- a mistake of memory that delivers a lifelong sentence of guilt far greater than any a judge or jury could mete out -- and file no charges. In the other 60 percent of the cases, parsing essentially identical facts and applying them to essentially identical laws, authorities decide that the negligence was so great and the injury so grievous that it must be called a felony, and it must be aggressively pursued.
<snip>

There may be no clear right or wrong in deciding how to handle cases such as these; in each case, a public servant is trying to do his best with a Solomonic dilemma. But public servants are also human beings, and they will inevitably bring to their judgment the full weight of that complicated fact.

 

[Lilibet]

I haven't seen any reason to assume she's being used as an example.

This site explains the aggravated part really well: Aggravated Manslaughter of a Child in Florida

Based on what we (the public) know now, I don’t see that this rises to the level of aggravated manslaughter described at your link. What hangs me up is the definition of “culpable negligence.” I can possibly agree with “neglect” however, again with the information available now, although I’m on the fence about it. So I wonder what a lesser charge of “neglect” would be.

Aggravated Manslaughter of a Child in Florida

In Florida, the crime of Aggravated Manslaughter of a Child occurs when a caregiver causes the death of a child due to child neglect.

www.hornsby.com

Culpable Negligence

Culpable negligence is a course of conduct showing reckless disregard of human life, or of the safety of persons exposed to its dangerous effects, or such an entire want of care as to raise a presumption of a conscious indifference to consequences, or which shows wantonness or recklessness, or a grossly careless disregard for the safety and welfare of the public, or such an indifference to the rights of others as is equivalent to an intentional violation of such rights.

Neglect of a Child

Neglect of a child occurs when a caregiver fails to provide a child with the care, supervision, and services necessary to maintain the child’s physical and mental health that a prudent person would consider essential for the well-being of the child.

 

[katydid23]

As the Mom of a now 51 year old (she survived my mistakes), I get what you’re saying and I agree that it could seem that it is “inexcusable” and that their child was “not their top priority.” There are certainly such cases and this could be one of them. Personally, I wouldn’t got that far. It seems that it was a tragic breakdown in communication and awareness/memory. Obviously, the DA sees it differently as she’s been charged. But DAs vary a lot in whether they file charges in these cases, so we’ll see if a jury agrees (frequently they don’t).

But as my WaPo article excerpt and the one @imstilla.grandma also posted explained, science disagrees with your comments when it comes to memory. Our brains are complicated and, until reading those articles, I wasn’t aware of how fragile our memory can be in these normally routine situations…unless we take concrete steps to remind it (teddy bear on seat, purse in back, etc). But if we think it can never happen to us, we either may not know to take these precautions or we may not think we need to do so. The parents mentioned in these articles were all loving, conscientious parents who wanted and prioritized their child. But their memories failed for the science-based reasons discussed in those two articles. They did not even know they needed to take the precautions mentioned because they never thought it could happen to them when they heard about hot car deaths. But it did happen. I just hope that everyone reads those articles to gain a clear understanding of how memory can and does fail in the best of us, so that we will take precautions we may not think we need to take.

JMO

But this specific case is not about 'forgetting.' Mom did not forget the child was in the car. Mom thought someone else was going to retrieve her child, apparently. And that is the crux of the problem.

If you leave your toddler at the swimming pool, you cannot walk away and go ask some else to go retrieve your child, without double checking that they are doing so. A closed car in Florida is as dangerous as a swimming pool.

So this hot car case is unusual because no one is claiming to forget----except perhaps whomever was asked to retrieve her.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Based on what we (the public) know now, I don’t see that this rises to the level of aggravated manslaughter described at your link. What hangs me up is the definition of “culpable negligence.” I can possibly agree with “neglect” however, again with the information available now, although I’m on the fence about it. So I wonder what a lesser charge of “neglect” would be.

Aggravated Manslaughter of a Child in Florida

In Florida, the crime of Aggravated Manslaughter of a Child occurs when a caregiver causes the death of a child due to child neglect.

www.hornsby.com

Culpable Negligence

Culpable negligence is a course of conduct showing reckless disregard of human life, or of the safety of persons exposed to its dangerous effects, or such an entire want of care as to raise a presumption of a conscious indifference to consequences, or which shows wantonness or recklessness, or a grossly careless disregard for the safety and welfare of the public, or such an indifference to the rights of others as is equivalent to an intentional violation of such rights.

Neglect of a Child

Neglect of a child occurs when a caregiver fails to provide a child with the care, supervision, and services necessary to maintain the child’s physical and mental health that a prudent person would consider essential for the well-being of the child.

The key here is, we (the public) don't have all the information.
Based on the charges, we can speculate that the interviews and the evidence tells a much more accurately, detailed story of what really happened that morning.

Which really, is fairly common in just about every criminal case.
There's the version the public is told or what LE is comfortable releasing, then there's the evidence and testimony of what really happened. They're almost never the same thing, especially in a death investigation.

jmo

 

[Lilibet]

But this specific case is not about 'forgetting.' Mom did not forget the child was in the car. Mom thought someone else was going to retrieve her child, apparently. And that is the crux of the problem.

If you leave your toddler at the swimming pool, you cannot walk away and go ask some else to go retrieve your child, without double checking that they are doing so. A closed car in Florida is as dangerous as a swimming pool.

So this hot car case is unusual because no one is claiming to forget----except perhaps whomever was asked to retrieve her.

Yes, I agree there’s a difference here. But my post about memory was in response to the thought of “forgetting” your baby of toddler in the car, so I thought it was worth repeating the information.

If Mom was usually involved in leading the service along with her husband, I imagine her toddler was usually watched by someone and Mom didn’t have to be concerned during the service (unlike at a swimming pool). So if she thought the person she had asked to bring the child inside had done so, she could tend to her duties without double checking. I could be wrong of course, but I’m visualizing her asking someone standing nearby to help (who didn’t hear her), and left a car door open, which someone shut for her, not realizing the baby was in there. In other words, a tragedy of errors.

 

[Lilibet]

The key here is, we (the public) don't have all the information.
Based on the charges, we can speculate that the interviews and the evidence tells a much more accurately, detailed story of what really happened that morning.

Which really, is fairly common in just about every criminal case.
There's the version the public is told or what LE is comfortable releasing, then there's the evidence and testimony of what really happened. They're almost never the same thing, especially in a death investigation.

jmo

Right. We don’t know any more than anyone else, except LE and the DA. Initially, LE didn’t lay blame in speaking to the media, but the investigation could have revealed more. Or, as I posted just upthread, these cases are very often inconsistent in charging in different jurisdictions. However, as you say, the evidence and witness testimony is almost never the same as what is released to the public, especially in a death investigation.

And to be fair, I will concede that we can speculate and make the reasonable assumption that interviews and evidence have told a more accurate and detailed story of what really happened. I’ve been on the other side of this discussion on another thread with an adult fatality in which there is a reluctance by some/many to accept that the similar charges reflect the as yet unknown possible evidence and witness statements. There is clear empathy by these posters toward the one charged on that thread, just as I have clear empathy toward the Mom on this thread. I think it’s important to be consistent in my opinion about the charges in cases when this information isn’t available, regardless of my anger or empathy toward the accused. Since I agree with the charges on that thread which-shall-remain-nameless, I’ll be consistent and agree that there is sufficient evidence for these charges for the time being.

 

[MyBelle]

The key here is, we (the public) don't have all the information.
Based on the charges, we can speculate that the interviews and the evidence tells a much more accurately, detailed story of what really happened that morning.

Which really, is fairly common in just about every criminal case.
There's the version the public is told or what LE is comfortable releasing, then there's the evidence and testimony of what really happened. They're almost never the same thing, especially in a death investigation.

jmo

BBM. I agree. Plus, the parents are immigrants from Haiti so English is not their first or even second language. How well were they and other members of the congregation able to communicate with LE?

JMO

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I have 7 kids and have attended church every Sunday for decades and I agree that it's especially chaotic when you have toddlers (as I have, 4 kids all less than 6 years apart). I've never once forgotten one of them in the vehicle before entering church (or the store, or school or anywhere else) so, I really have a hard time seeing how this could accidentally happen. I realize this is a very subjective experience, but that's my personal experience.

jmo

What do you see as their motive? TIA

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I don't believe there was ever any intent to harm the baby, not at all. And I can see how this could have happened. The mom is running late so she rushes inside to do the mornings proceedings, and for some reason or another, no one actually saves the baby from a gruesome death, because of a misunderstanding.

It is a terrible mistake, I agree. But it is also possibly criminal negligence, if not enough care was taken to protect the baby. Misunderstandings happen when there is not clear communication or intent. If one of the parents followed through to make sure the baby was brought inside, we wouldn't be talking about this tragedy. It was their responsibility to do so. JMO

What is the definition of criminal negligence? TIA

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I wonder if the charge is due to what was said by everyone they interviewed, both family and other folks at the church that day. Looking at the actual charge, the "aggravated" part seems to come from culpable negligence.

So for example (purely speculation to understand the charge) if some of the other kids in the car said "mom said to just leave her there and let her sleep" and no one else in the church came forward to say they were supposed to retrieve the child, that might be enough to show a course of conduct they consider careless or reckless disregard for the baby's safety.

Again, pure speculation. I know the mother said she believed someone else was supposed to get the baby but, if she didn't tell LE who was supposed to do that, and no one came forward to confirm, even if that's all it was, it still all comes back down to her.

jmo

Didn't the father get out of that same car?

 

[MsMarple]

Didn't the father get out of that same car?

No, he arrived separately.

Palm Bay mother charged in infant daughter's death after leaving her in hot car, police say

Palm Bay police say mother who officiated church services as daughter was in hot car has been charged in child's death

www.floridatoday.com

 

[mickey2942]

In the end, the saddest part of this story is a baby, who needlessly suffered, and died due to negligence. Since the primary caregiver, the child's mother has been charged by LEO, there may be more information that they have access to that has not been released.

It is the beginning of June. I wonder how many more tragedies like this one we will see this summer...

 

[iamshadow21]

In the end, the saddest part of this story is a baby, who needlessly suffered, and died due to negligence. Since the primary caregiver, the child's mother has been charged by LEO, there may be more information that they have access to that has not been released.

It is the beginning of June. I wonder how many more tragedies like this one we will see this summer...

One is too many, but it's never just one.

 

[Ontario Mom]

What do you see as their motive? TIA

I would think that's fairly obvious. She was running late for the service, so that was her top priority in the moment.

jmo

 

[Ontario Mom]

Right. We don’t know any more than anyone else, except LE and the DA. Initially, LE didn’t lay blame in speaking to the media, but the investigation could have revealed more. Or, as I posted just upthread, these cases are very often inconsistent in charging in different jurisdictions. However, as you say, the evidence and witness testimony is almost never the same as what is released to the public, especially in a death investigation.

And to be fair, I will concede that we can speculate and make the reasonable assumption that interviews and evidence have told a more accurate and detailed story of what really happened. I’ve been on the other side of this discussion on another thread with an adult fatality in which there is a reluctance by some/many to accept that the similar charges reflect the as yet unknown possible evidence and witness statements. There is clear empathy by these posters toward the one charged on that thread, just as I have clear empathy toward the Mom on this thread. I think it’s important to be consistent in my opinion about the charges in cases when this information isn’t available, regardless of my anger or empathy toward the accused. Since I agree with the charges on that thread which-shall-remain-nameless, I’ll be consistent and agree that there is sufficient evidence for these charges for the time being.

The bolded section above is the key here, I think.

Since no 2 cases are ever the same, it comes down to the totality of evidence and witness testimony.
In one case, those things might support the person charged, and in yet another case, those things might be what convicts the person charged.

In this case, the charges appear to reflect some evidence that the public is not yet privvy to.

jmo

 

[neesaki]

In the end, the saddest part of this story is a baby, who needlessly suffered, and died due to negligence. Since the primary caregiver, the child's mother has been charged by LEO, there may be more information that they have access to that has not been released.

It is the beginning of June. I wonder how many more tragedies like this one we will see this summer...

Such as, was there actually another person who assured her they would take care of the baby. If so LE would have interviewed them by now.
Why didn’t the mother just take the baby in and deliver the baby to this responsible person. Priorities. Jmo

 

[charminglane]

I can't help but wonder if the mom had papers and a purse that she remembered to bring in with her.