FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen *4 Guilty* #23

[Knitpicker]

Yes, a lawyer can absolutely argue that. Rashbaum sort of has, IMO, by saying he can’t get a fair jury because people are talking about the case online, hasn’t he?). Not sure what the remedy would be for the argument that the internet in general has prejudiced the client- you can’t put a gag order on the whole internet and you can’t just throw out the case pm can you? Can you try ti find a venue where people aren’t on the internet as much? I really don’t know. But I do think we will be seeing more of the type of arguments Rashbaum is making with regard to Prejudicing the potential jurors. We want justice, but we also want it to be fairly achieved, and not vulnerable to appeal.

I’m talking about court documents/evidence.
Not chatter on the internet.

 

[cottonweaver]

Yes, a lawyer can absolutely argue that. Rashbaum sort of has, IMO, by saying he can’t get a fair jury because people are talking about the case online, hasn’t he?). Not sure what the remedy would be for the argument that the internet in general has prejudiced the client- you can’t put a gag order on the whole internet and you can’t just throw out the case pm can you? Can you try ti find a venue where people aren’t on the internet as much? I really don’t know. But I do think we will be seeing more of the type of arguments Rashbaum is making with regard to Prejudicing the potential jurors. We want justice, but we also want it to be fairly achieved, and not vulnerable to appeal.

Did he make those claims in court? Or was it mainly Charlie & Donna who did so, after the fact and maybe Rash complaining / deflecting after his poor performance? C & D's gripes seemed to have been 20-20 , Dateline & OMDB not the internet ( Her litigation list from her notes & his jail call)

Rashbaum went onto STS shortly after his client's arrest - despite all the advice against ( Advice from local, experienced criminal lawyers, ie lawyers unlike himself. He ticked none of those boxes. As far as I recall, this was Rashbaum's first criminal trial. )
He employed an expensive, experienced jury consultant. ( One who all three seemed to agree was fantastic! )
In court he approached podcasters & Youtubers and even played tennis with Mentour Lawyer.
Now I don't share the visceral antipathy towards DR that many have but I do think he was out of his depth.
Sounds like Morris is more level-headed too. Probably not so naive as to get into the online Markel bubble. I don't get the feeling Morris & Co will be surfing the net and watching Youtube

We'll have to see what's in CA's appeal re that - in bold above - but as for Donna's trial yes it might take longer to seat a jury this time in Tally. However, do we really think that a typical Tally juror is following the case on Youtube or poring over discovery documents? It sounds like an obscure, unpopular pastime, lol.
Will they have read some of the coverage CA trial in Tall Democrat - much more likely imo.

Having said all that, I already had the bad feeling that the trial is going to be delayed

 

[amicuscurie]

Did he make those claims in court? Or was it mainly Charlie & Donna who did so, after the fact and maybe Rash complaining / deflecting after his poor performance? C & D's gripes seemed to have been 20-20 , Dateline & OMDB not the internet ( Her litigation list from her notes & his jail call)

Rashbaum went onto STS shortly after his client's arrest - despite all the advice against ( Advice from local, experienced criminal lawyers, ie lawyers unlike himself. He ticked none of those boxes. As far as I recall, this was Rashbaum's first criminal trial. )
He employed an expensive, experienced jury consultant. ( One who all three seemed to agree was fantastic! )
In court he approached podcasters & Youtubers and even played tennis with Mentour Lawyer.
Now I don't share the visceral antipathy towards DR that many have but I do think he was out of his depth.
Sounds like Morris is more level-headed too. Probably not so naive as to get into the online Markel bubble. I don't get the feeling Morris & Co will be surfing the net and watching Youtube

We'll have to see what's in CA's appeal re that - in bold above - but as for Donna's trial yes it might take longer to seat a jury this time in Tally. However, do we really think that a typical Tally juror is following the case on Youtube or poring over discovery documents? It sounds like an obscure, unpopular pastime, lol.
Will they have read some of the coverage CA trial in Tall Democrat - much more likely imo.

Having said all that, I already had the bad feeling that the trial is going to be delayed

I thought that when he went on STS he complained about the attention the case had gotten on the internet, at the time I remember thinking the irony had escaped him.

 

[Knitpicker]

Did he make those claims in court? Or was it mainly Charlie & Donna who did so, after the fact and maybe Rash complaining / deflecting after his poor performance? C & D's gripes seemed to have been 20-20 , Dateline & OMDB not the internet ( Her litigation list from her notes & his jail call)

Rashbaum went onto STS shortly after his client's arrest - despite all the advice against ( Advice from local, experienced criminal lawyers, ie lawyers unlike himself. He ticked none of those boxes. As far as I recall, this was Rashbaum's first criminal trial. )
He employed an expensive, experienced jury consultant. ( One who all three seemed to agree was fantastic! )
In court he approached podcasters & Youtubers and even played tennis with Mentour Lawyer.
Now I don't share the visceral antipathy towards DR that many have but I do think he was out of his depth.
Sounds like Morris is more level-headed too. Probably not so naive as to get into the online Markel bubble. I don't get the feeling Morris & Co will be surfing the net and watching Youtube

We'll have to see what's in CA's appeal re that - in bold above - but as for Donna's trial yes it might take longer to seat a jury this time in Tally. However, do we really think that a typical Tally juror is following the case on Youtube or poring over discovery documents? It sounds like an obscure, unpopular pastime, lol.
Will they have read some of the coverage CA trial in Tall Democrat - much more likely imo.

Having said all that, I already had the bad feeling that the trial is going to be delayed

Delaying the trial will surely delay Wendi’s arrest.
I was thinking that it was Donnas idea that Rashi goes on STS.
In her warped, insane way of thinking, she probably thought it would be good PR for the family.

 

[amicuscurie]

Delaying the trial will surely delay Wendi’s arrest.
I was thinking that it was Donnas idea that Rashi goes on STS.
In her warped, insane way of thinking, she probably thought it would be good PR for the family.

Agreed.

 

[Zedzded]

Did he make those claims in court? Or was it mainly Charlie & Donna who did so, after the fact and maybe Rash complaining / deflecting after his poor performance? C & D's gripes seemed to have been 20-20 , Dateline & OMDB not the internet ( Her litigation list from her notes & his jail call)

Rashbaum went onto STS shortly after his client's arrest - despite all the advice against ( Advice from local, experienced criminal lawyers, ie lawyers unlike himself. He ticked none of those boxes. As far as I recall, this was Rashbaum's first criminal trial. )
He employed an expensive, experienced jury consultant. ( One who all three seemed to agree was fantastic! )
In court he approached podcasters & Youtubers and even played tennis with Mentour Lawyer.
Now I don't share the visceral antipathy towards DR that many have but I do think he was out of his depth.

DR is way out of his depth, but his failings as a lawyer go beyond that. Pure speculation on my part, but I think he has forgotten a lawyers primary duty to their client, to act in their best interests. I'm not sure if it's inexperience, incompetence an obsession with fame and fortune, chasing his 15 minutes... His appearance on STS was bizarre. Nonchalantly and very casually saying he wasn't surprised at how quick CA's jury returned with their verdict. His client lost their life that day and he's talking about it like he's discussing the weather.

Talking about DA like she's some sweet old lady not some person who has been charged with first degree murder and facing a significant amount of incriminating evidence. By trying to paint her in a sympathetic and humbling manner is going to backfire spectacularly. The jury will read the nasty, vitriolic emails and be offended that DR is treating them like idiots, trying to convince them DA is not the person whom they think she is.

And his suggestion that DA was simply travelling to Vietnam on a cheeky little holiday... it's like he's adopted the Adelson's approach to dealing with difficult questions, any answer is OK, it doesn't matter how ridiculous the answer is e.g CA's response to why he didn't attend DM's funeral "I was too upset." So now DR has to backtrack and admit DA lied to him and was trying to flee. But if there is evidence that he knew about that, he could be in a bit of trouble.. perhaps not legally, but at the very least his credibility and reputation will take a hit..

 

[Zedzded]

Ultimately there will be 6/7 of the co-conspirators sitting rotting in prison cells for the rest of their lives and their lawyers have a part to play in their life sentences. DR should be pleading with DA to make a plea deal (not saying the State would accept) instead he's pissing around filing motions to have court rooms changed and suppressing insignificant evidence and other useless nonsense trying to make DA think he's some kind of legal genius.

A lawyers duty is to ensure that justice is served and I guess Rashbaum, Kawass, DeCoste etc can all argue that that's what they did. Their self-serving actions and general incompetence saw their guilty clients jailed for life. Maybe one day we'll find out that they all colluded with one another, knowing their clients were guilty and deliberately acted with such ineptitude as to ensure their clients had no chance of being found not guilty. They took one for the team and allowed themselves to be ridiculed and vilified. Justice is served.

 

[cottonweaver]

whenever I reply, my posts seem to get longer & longer so..

Gonna try an experiment & be brief, rather than use a paragraph for each point in an attempt at clarity

bear with me. It might end up totally incoherent!

 

[cottonweaver]

I thought that when he went on STS he complained about the attention the case had gotten on the internet, at the time I remember thinking the irony had escaped him.

Absolutely. That's why I raised the issue of his appearance on STS in my reply to your post about the risks of SM content prejudicing outcomes
& in response to your Q about whether we'll see him raise that point again in future etc. ( Not that he has any role in Ufferman's appeal)

 

[cottonweaver]

Delaying the trial will surely delay Wendi’s arrest.
I was thinking that it was Donnas idea that Rashi goes on STS.
In her warped, insane way of thinking, she probably thought it would be good PR for the family.

Re delay point. I was more thinking along the lines of :
- Do the Defense maybe need a delay card in case Donna is not ready?
- Why am I wondering?
The upcoming deadlines, filing dates & requests. Combined with what we know about Donna's mindset vs what we know about the scale of her task right now and all to be completed in a v different setting

 

[cottonweaver]

Ultimately there will be 6/7 of the co-conspirators sitting rotting in prison cells for the rest of their lives and their lawyers have a part to play in their life sentences. DR should be pleading with DA to make a plea deal (not saying the State would accept) instead he's pissing around filing motions to have court rooms changed and suppressing insignificant evidence and other useless nonsense trying to make DA think he's some kind of legal genius.

A lawyers duty is to ensure that justice is served and I guess Rashbaum, Kawass, DeCoste etc can all argue that that's what they did. Their self-serving actions and general incompetence saw their guilty clients jailed for life. Maybe one day we'll find out that they all colluded with one another, knowing their clients were guilty and deliberately acted with such ineptitude as to ensure their clients had no chance of being found not guilty. They took one for the team and allowed themselves to be ridiculed and vilified. Justice is served.

Re bold point above
What if these are Morris' initiative? Or one of them is Donna's demand? Court room change. She has a huge grudge against media. *

Re 2nd para. Now that's an expose which would make a great podcast, if true. I'd pay for that.
Lifting The Lid. What really happened in the Adelson Epic. In Miami, one of the places with more crim attys per square mile than any place on the earth, spoiled for choice, the Adelsons managed to hire ..... etc etc

PS. At a tangent, re * above, Donna has so many potential trigger points if I was a minion on State's team, I'd amuse myself with doing a quick list for boss Cappleman's consideration. ( GC is great at destabilising & button pressing.) Resisting expanding because I also don't want to do anything that helps the Defense

 

[cottonweaver]

I do have some concerns about the impact of all this on the lawyers. They do not generally practice with the expectation that all of the discovery will be viewed and commented on by the public. This, and the general interest in true crime by average joes and not established news organizations, is new. The older established news organizations had legal departments to advise them on what was appropriate to disclose and what would be the consequences of disclosure. These new people (basically any Joe with a microphone or a free Reddit account), do not. Some are lawyers, most are not. They may have a strong interest in seeing justice served, but they may not be aware of ways in which their own conduct could inadvertently jeopardize that. This certainly adds a layer of complexity to the legal strategy, and it’s annoying and distracting, I would imagine, for the lawyers who would like to pay attention to preparing their case outside the glare of the public eye. Such is life now, I guess. But the justice system is not entertainment and treating it as such may not serve the public interest and may lead to unfair situations for the lawyers and the system. Of particular concern to me, for example, is that there are some ex-parte motions which have been publicized on various channels and forums. Ex-parte motions are made by one party to the judge, without copying the other party. While generally each side must copy the other on what it presents to the judge, not doing so is permitted in certain situations with certain justifications which must be made by motion. Publishing them to the world negates the ex-parte nature of these pleadings. In one, I believe, the defense states a reason why he is making the motion ex-parte. Whatever reason he may have, once somebody puts it on the internet, that goes out the window. I realize that Florida sunshine laws permit the public to see all of this. But, Florida Sunshine Laws were enacted to ensure that officials conducted their affairs in the open, and to provide a check on their behavior, from the media, for example, or from those aggrieved by a particular policy or government action. For most of the life of these laws, requesting a document would have involved traveling to a local courthouse or government office and filling out forms and making copies. Only a news organization, or a directly interested party, would have the time and the resources to do this. Things have changed drastically in the past ten years, at a speed and in a manner the state must have found difficult to counteract or address. It was never anticipated at the time these laws were made that so many members of the public would have any actual interest in requesting documents filed in individual legal cases, nor that it would be so easy for them to do so from the comfort of their couch. Why would they, but for the internet?

(Off soapbox now.)

Just taking one point because I have too many thoughts on all the rest of your interesting post. Don't get me started.


I thought ex p was being deployed in order to get this granted by the judge without a hearing,
(without requiring state to be present to any dispute or comment. Rather than principally deployed in Florida to play 'secret subpoenas' with the intent to keep the other side in the dark.

( I'm also trying to imagine a scenario where a Florida SAOffice doesn't monitor LCC site but instead might only stumble across Def filings should the public/press spot something on the docket. I can't make that add up on a realistic level but IANAL so...)

 

[Zedzded]

Delaying the trial will surely delay Wendi’s arrest.

Potentially. Although I think the State are ready to arrest WA now. They're happy to wait post trial as it makes more sense to, but I think if there was a trial delay they'd pick her and not bother waiting post trial. Same same with DA. They might have had a date in mind when they wanted to pick her up, but their hand was forced by thge attempted flee.

 

[Knitpicker]

DR is way out of his depth, but his failings as a lawyer go beyond that. Pure speculation on my part, but I think he has forgotten a lawyers primary duty to their client, to act in their best interests. I'm not sure if it's inexperience, incompetence an obsession with fame and fortune, chasing his 15 minutes... His appearance on STS was bizarre. Nonchalantly and very casually saying he wasn't surprised at how quick CA's jury returned with their verdict. His client lost their life that day and he's talking about it like he's discussing the weather.

Talking about DA like she's some sweet old lady not some person who has been charged with first degree murder and facing a significant amount of incriminating evidence. By trying to paint her in a sympathetic and humbling manner is going to backfire spectacularly. The jury will read the nasty, vitriolic emails and be offended that DR is treating them like idiots, trying to convince them DA is not the person whom they think she is.

And his suggestion that DA was simply travelling to Vietnam on a cheeky little holiday... it's like he's adopted the Adelson's approach to dealing with difficult questions, any answer is OK, it doesn't matter how ridiculous the answer is e.g CA's response to why he didn't attend DM's funeral "I was too upset." So now DR has to backtrack and admit DA lied to him and was trying to flee. But if there is evidence that he knew about that, he could be in a bit of trouble.. perhaps not legally, but at the very least his credibility and reputation will take a hit..

He knew about it. DA spoke to DR about fleeing. Can’t quote him , but D ask if she could flee and he said yes but they could get her at the airport or something. She also told Charlie that Dan had to speak to him about something and that they should talk on the “personal” line. I know that was before DR was officially Donnas attorney, There was some talk with attorneys about whether Rashbaum should be deposed by the state. I think it was on STS? Discussion amongst attorneys.

 

[cottonweaver]

Potentially. Although I think the State are ready to arrest WA now. They're happy to wait post trial as it makes more sense to, but I think if there was a trial delay they'd pick her and not bother waiting post trial. Same same with DA. They might have had a date in mind when they wanted to pick her up, but their hand was forced by thge attempted flee.

this Fall will be Wendi's fourth time
Fourth time testifying for state as a state's witness.
I just cannot see why they would arrest her prior to DA's trial when they have a record of using her for their own purposes. Delay or no delay

It would be great if it was otherwise but ....

 

[Zedzded]

this Fall will be Wendi's fourth time
Fourth time testifying for state as a state's witness.
I just cannot see why they would arrest her prior to DA's trial when they have a record of using her for their own purposes. Delay or no delay

It would be great if it was otherwise but ....

Yup you're right.

 

[Knitpicker]

Part 2 of Mentour Lawyers summary of the ' 85 tagged items' from Discovery
(Part 1 is a few WS pages back, with Mentour Lawyer's link FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen *4 Guilty* #23

Part 2 - items 22 - 52
( It's pretty dull but have done it regardless, it gives an overview you can skim read & an advance look at what's in this discovery that podcasters have FOIA'd.
At some point, hopefully STS will do a programme on these where they upload the individual screenshots if available. Mentour Lawyer hasn't done screenshots on his show yet but probably will do, IDK)


#22 ' Instant message' Note from DA to self. Nov 13 , 5:59 a.m. 'Ask Jared to remove cushions, do teak oil rubbed on chairs and drag them under porch overhang '


#23 ' Instant message' Note from DA to self. Nov 8, 10.08pm ' Louis Rivera even said it could have been an extortion'


#24 ' Instant message' ' Visa Vietnam place' Nov 7, 3.55 pm. 'I'm making my plane reservations dependent upon when I get the visa so I do not know how quickly I can get this then I can make my reservation.'


#25 ' Instant message' From Jorge Estrada to DA. Nov 11, 1.59pm. ' hey Donna I'm in between meetings haven't heard back from Wendy do you want want me to swing by after I'm done with work around 5 or 5:30?'


#26 ' Instant message' Note from DA to self. Nov 13 . ' Rod we are going on vacation we need your help on vacation we need your help we are reachable on WhatsApp or regular I was on property Saturday and poo was perfect ' ( Poo isn't a typo.)


#27 ' Instant message Whatsapp ' from DA to Bree P. 11 Nov 7.54am. ' Harvey will go in without me I just can't do it '


#28 ' Instant message' Note from DA to self. ( no date given) ' saw the most graphic photos of their lives on a big screen'


#29 ' Instant message' To DA ' thank you for verifying check number blah blah blah your account is safe and no further action is required ( Sender details & date not supplied. This prolly relates to visa/tickets )


#30 'Instant message' DA to WA. November 7 2023 at 10:30 ' Don't get nervous. again. nothing about the case just would like to show you business stuff and personal things if you can't do it we must find someone who can. I hope you understand that it has nothing to do with the case there is no more case

(Splitting it across WS posts so posts are shorter)

Wouldn’t Jorge Estrada be on the states witness list?
W’s boyfriend but wondering, if he is a realtor, if he was to be handling their properties when they left. Seems she called on him when Wendi was ghosting her? What did he know?

 

[amicuscurie]

DR is way out of his depth, but his failings as a lawyer go beyond that. Pure speculation on my part, but I think he has forgotten a lawyers primary duty to their client, to act in their best interests. I'm not sure if it's inexperience, incompetence an obsession with fame and fortune, chasing his 15 minutes... His appearance on STS was bizarre. Nonchalantly and very casually saying he wasn't surprised at how quick CA's jury returned with their verdict. His client lost their life that day and he's talking about it like he's discussing the weather.

Talking about DA like she's some sweet old lady not some person who has been charged with first degree murder and facing a significant amount of incriminating evidence. By trying to paint her in a sympathetic and humbling manner is going to backfire spectacularly. The jury will read the nasty, vitriolic emails and be offended that DR is treating them like idiots, trying to convince them DA is not the person whom they think she is.

And his suggestion that DA was simply travelling to Vietnam on a cheeky little holiday... it's like he's adopted the Adelson's approach to dealing with difficult questions, any answer is OK, it doesn't matter how ridiculous the answer is e.g CA's response to why he didn't attend DM's funeral "I was too upset." So now DR has to backtrack and admit DA lied to him and was trying to flee. But if there is evidence that he knew about that, he could be in a bit of trouble.. perhaps not legally, but at the very least his credibility and reputation will take a hit..

Im not sure what he knew. If I recall correctly, one of the entries in Donna’s planner has her telling Wendi to tell him once they’ve left. It’s unclear. He may possibly have known they had a home in Vietnam, and that they were making preparations. As another poster said, on one of the hot mic calls she does say she had some kind of conversation with him about whether they could leave, and he may have advised that they could since there was not a warrant, but that they might not be successful. He may not have wanted to know more.

 

[amicuscurie]

Ultimately there will be 6/7 of the co-conspirators sitting rotting in prison cells for the rest of their lives and their lawyers have a part to play in their life sentences. DR should be pleading with DA to make a plea deal (not saying the State would accept) instead he's pissing around filing motions to have court rooms changed and suppressing insignificant evidence and other useless nonsense trying to make DA think he's some kind of legal genius.

A lawyers duty is to ensure that justice is served and I guess Rashbaum, Kawass, DeCoste etc can all argue that that's what they did. Their self-serving actions and general incompetence saw their guilty clients jailed for life. Maybe one day we'll find out that they all colluded with one another, knowing their clients were guilty and deliberately acted with such ineptitude as to ensure their clients had no chance of being found not guilty. They took one for the team and allowed themselves to be ridiculed and vilified. Justice is served.

I would think it would be hard to force a client to take a plea deal if they don’t want to. I would,doubt that it hasn’t been mentioned at least once.

 

[amicuscurie]

Re delay point. I was more thinking along the lines of :
- Do the Defense maybe need a delay card in case Donna is not ready?
- Why am I wondering?
The upcoming deadlines, filing dates & requests. Combined with what we know about Donna's mindset vs what we know about the scale of her task right now and all to be completed in a v different setting

I think it might be delayed, just because that tends to happen with cases. Defense lawyers tend to talk a big game about speedy trial, just to hold the state’s feet to the fire a little bit. But often, it doesn’t happen.