FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen *4 Guilty* #23

[cottonweaver]

Yes, agree with the above. This is what I meant in my earlier post about JL seemed to me to be too eager and trying to fit in - I did not mean trying to fit in w/regard to WA and the kids, but trying to fit in with the set up theory.

Was it ever the/ a state's theory of the case?
Was it ever proposed in a closing or opening? I genuinely don't recall it being a state's theory.

I mostly see it on SM platforms eg ' the set-up narrative'

 

[nodamselindistress]

Was it ever the/ a state's theory of the case?
Was it ever proposed in a closing or opening? I genuinely don't recall it being a state's theory.

I mostly see it on SM platforms eg ' the set-up narrative'

Not that I recall. I only watched Charlie's trial, however, so don't have all the history that some of you do.

I think it was more a "possibility" put forth by the investigators, but am not even sure about that.

It should not be anyone's theory IMHO because after DM left the gym he could have gone anywhere else, he could have gone shopping, to visit his attorney, etc., and he would not have been home around 11 AM for the hit to take place. Assuming they were not going to take the hit out in a public place, of course.

 

[Going Rogue]

I've given up @Going Rogue
I tried to split the posts as much as possible, clip by clip so each could be tackled in turn. For a reason.

My apologies, I appreciate but admittedly was overwhelmed by the number of your responses and tried to sum it up in a single post. If I have any further points, I’ll be careful not to break the individual threads. The data in my brain is very fragmented and I can certainly use a little more structure so I appreciate your good intentions.

 

[cottonweaver]

Not that I recall. I only watched Charlie's trial, however, so don't have all the history that some of you do.

I think it was more a "possibility" put forth by the investigators, but am not even sure about that.

It should not be anyone's theory IMHO because after DM left the gym he could have gone anywhere else, he could have gone shopping, to visit his attorney, etc., and he would not have been home around 11 AM for the hit to take place. Assuming they were not going to take the hit out in a public place, of course.

Never fitted for me.

Rivera chose the Prius and the previous rental hired for the hit looked nothing like Jeff's car

OTOH I do think it was convenient to have Jeff's name suggested to Isom within a few hours of Dan's murder

Just like flinging around the name of other persons became a thing
- Amy Adler's ex husband who she'd never even met ( Tamara D in the Isom interview)
( Other avenues suggested in the 5 hr Isom interview. Dan's colleagues, Dan's students etc)


Some people really do believe in the ' Golden 48 hour's. Maybe Wendi was one of them?

 

[Going Rogue]

Was it ever the/ a state's theory of the case?
Was it ever proposed in a closing or opening? I genuinely don't recall it being a state's theory.

I mostly see it on SM platforms eg ' the set-up narrative'

I don’t believe the state ever outlined this as part of their theory. Although I didn’t hear Georgia say this, I believe Carl S made it a point in a past video (with a strong emphasis) that in Georgia closing arguments in Charlie’s trial, she did in fact indicate Jeff was being set up. I am fairly certain Carl said this but I never went back and fact checked exactly what Georgia said. Not sure if Georgia was speaking of the ‘set up narrative’ OR was just mentioning Jeff was brought up a ‘potential’ suspect during Wendi’s police interview which are two completely different things. I am not trying to put words in Carl’s mouth, I am 95% sure I heard him say this in a past video and although I don’t agree with a lot of Carl’s takes, he is not a bullshitter, so Georgia must have said something. Regardless, to me it’s clearly obvious that the state helped paint the 'set-up narrative' picture simply by the way they questioned Jeff Lacasse on the stand. They knew he had shared this theory in his police interview and they ‘pulled’ that story out of him during his examination.

 

[Knitpicker]

Great post! A couple of things it brought to mind

I agree with you that the being locked out thing might possibly have been a ruse so Jeff wouldn’t have to go in the house. BUT in her police interview she is showing Isom various receipts from her errands, and she makes a point of showing him a receipt which she says is for a bunch of extra keys she has just had made so she won’t be locked out again. Can you think of any reason she might have been making extra keys that week? It’s strange to me, but she does show him this receipt and mention the keys. She also tells a story about how when she returned from Miami after visiting for Harvey’s birthday (one week before the murder), she was starting to feel sad about being away from the kids (if I recall correctly Dan was supposed to get them back from her because he had them the week of the murder), so she says she told her parents to take the kids to Dan. In my opinion this could possibly be because she did not want Dan to come to the house or in the house. I agree it’s possible she may have started packing already, and in my opinion it’s possible her parents may have assisted her and/or started taking some stuff with them when they drove back home.

Also- as I recall he DID say he went into her house only once after she came back from visiting her folks that last time- it was the time he says she mentioned Charlie having looked into hiring a hit man. If I recall correctly, he says this conversation took place inside her house after a date, either Sunday or Monday before the murder, but he did not spend the night. In my opinion it is odd, because I agree that it’s possible she may already have begun packing and not wanted him to come in the house. I think this conversation occurred too close in time for her to have intended for Jeff to pick up on it and offer to do the job, because this was the week of the murder and I am thinking that the plans were already in place.

I believe she had the kids the time she was in Miami for Harveys birthday.
Because Jeffrey said he did FaceTime with the kids I think 3 times in the two weeks she was in Miami.
So are you saying that the kids were with Dan that time?

I think she was making keys because she had the locks changed for her house so that Jeffrey couldn’t get it (I would think he would have had a key because he watched the kids a lot when she went away on business—-picked them up from school etc)
She may have made extra keys for friends who may have had an old key. And her parents. That would be a good question if any of W’s friends took the stand. She woudl need them to look over her home because she knew she was moving.

UPDAT: I may be confusing another time she wa sin Miami in June. I do always get those 2 trios confused. The time when she called the best boy guy from Miami probably using Donnas phone. June 11.

 

[Knitpicker]

Thanks for doing all the digging on Jeff’s testimony. Here are more thoughts after re-watching all the portions of Jeff’s testimony that you timestamped. In the first two trials he says Wendi knew he was leaving on Friday at 11:00am and she was the only person he had told this to in Tallahassee. In the first police interview (days after the murder), he clearly stated he had vague plans to leave either Friday or Saturday. Further, he made statements during his police interview that he wasn’t being fully transparent with Wendi about any of the details of his plans to go – paraphrasing, he said he didn’t want her to know if he was going (love games?). I’m not sure how we started with “I had vague plans to leave on Friday or Saturday” AND LAND ON, “Wendi knew I was leaving at 11:00am on Friday”? Based on Jeff’s statements in his police interviews, I can believe she wasn’t sure that he was still going, but I’m not convinced she knew (if he decided to go) what his exact ‘scheduled’ departure day / time was. IMO, that is just not supported by what he said in his police interviews.

Obviously Wendi knew it was a weekend trip so it’s a logical to deduce that Wendi knew ‘IF’ Jeff went he’d most likely be leaving on Friday or Saturday. We can speculate all day long whether or not Wendi actually knew Jeff was ‘planning’ on leaving at 11:00am on Friday as per his testimony. To be fair, we can only weigh that analysis on Jeff various statements and at best, in my opinion, his statements supporting this are very contradictory. That’s just my objective take on this.

I see you’re getting hung up me stating Jeff took some ‘liberties’ so I’ll expand on that thought and perhaps ‘soften’ it up because I’m not trying to paint Jeff as a bad guy and I don’t think what I’m pointing out is perjury. I am trying to be responsible in my commentary and perhaps that a strong word BUT it’s my personal opinion that Jeff’s gut told him that Wendi was involved and he is trying to be ‘helpful’ and he was ‘subconsciously’ providing details that help fit the ‘Lacasse setup narrative’. That narrative, if proven true, is a sure Wendi conviction. Given this more thought, its probably more fitting to accuse the ‘state’ of taking liberties by walking Jeff down this path during his testimony. They knew what he had said in his police interviews, and they got him to play that hand by their strategic line of questioning specifically regarding the ‘timing’ of murder with his ‘scheduled’ departure time and the picture that painted.

I believe Jeffrey was staying beyond the weekend. I remember him saying he cut short the trip to return home after he found out about the shooting.

 

[Missyrocks5]

Great post! A couple of things it brought to mind

I agree with you that the being locked out thing might possibly have been a ruse so Jeff wouldn’t have to go in the house. BUT in her police interview she is showing Isom various receipts from her errands, and she makes a point of showing him a receipt which she says is for a bunch of extra keys she has just had made so she won’t be locked out again. Can you think of any reason she might have been making extra keys that week? It’s strange to me, but she does show him this receipt and mention the keys. She also tells a story about how when she returned from Miami after visiting for Harvey’s birthday (one week before the murder), she was starting to feel sad about being away from the kids (if I recall correctly Dan was supposed to get them back from her because he had them the week of the murder), so she says she told her parents to take the kids to Dan. In my opinion this could possibly be because she did not want Dan to come to the house or in the house. I agree it’s possible she may have started packing already, and in my opinion it’s possible her parents may have assisted her and/or started taking some stuff with them when they drove back home.

Also- as I recall he DID say he went into her house only once after she came back from visiting her folks that last time- it was the time he says she mentioned Charlie having looked into hiring a hit man. If I recall correctly, he says this conversation took place inside her house after a date, either Sunday or Monday before the murder, but he did not spend the night. In my opinion it is odd, because I agree that it’s possible she may already have begun packing and not wanted him to come in the house. I think this conversation occurred too close in time for her to have intended for Jeff to pick up on it and offer to do the job, because this was the week of the murder and I am thinking that the plans were already in place.

Great questions. You may well be right about the keys. I really want to see any interviews to see if anyone may have been to her house that week, particularly her bedroom, etc. I assume she would be smart enough to put any boxes either in her garage or her bedroom and then make sure that no one came in. Best Buy came for the TV in her living room.

I just always assumed she was packing. I also believe that the reason she didn't shower when she met her friends for lunch the day of the murder was because she was packing that morning. I think after BB left, she packed and then her anxiety got the best of her so she ran out to use the liquor as an excuse to drive to that ABC to see if it was done. She couldn't wait for it to happen IMO. Of course, I also believe that is one of the things that will take her down. Her driving all the way to the other side of town to go to that liquor store when she was meeting her friends near her house and there was a liquor store near the restaurant in combination with turning down Trescott and seeing crime scene tape & cops, etc, but never asking what happened.

She knew all those Motions were going to be scheduled soon for hearing.

 

[Going Rogue]

Great questions. You may well be right about the keys. I really want to see any interviews to see if anyone may have been to her house that week, particularly her bedroom, etc. I assume she would be smart enough to put any boxes either in her garage or her bedroom and then make sure that no one came in. Best Buy came for the TV in her living room.

I just always assumed she was packing. I also believe that the reason she didn't shower when she met her friends for lunch the day of the murder was because she was packing that morning. I think after BB left, she packed and then her anxiety got the best of her so she ran out to use the liquor is an excuse to drive to that ABC to see if it was done. She couldn't wait for it to happen IMO. Of course, I also believe that is one of the things that will take her down. Her driving all the way to the other side of town to go to that liquor store when she was meeting her friends near her house and there was a liquor store near the restaurant in combination with turning down Trescott and seeing crime scene tape & cops, etc, but never asking what happened.

She knew all those Motions were going to be scheduled soon for hearing.

I can’t imagine every stone wasn’t turned by the state as to any evidence Wendi was packing before Friday. Also, Jeff had stayed at her house during the first attempt. Remember the story of him running out to get her Pepto Bismol during the failed attempt – he was staying he at her place that time. There were no signs, at least that Jeff noticed, she was packed up during the first attempt, why would the second attempt be different?

 

[amicuscurie]

I believe she had the kids the time she was in Miami for Harveys birthday.
Because Jeffrey said he did FaceTime with the kids I think 3 times in the two weeks she was in Miami.
So are you saying that the kids were with Dan that time?

I think she was making keys because she had the locks changed for her house so that Jeffrey couldn’t get it (I would think he would have had a key because he watched the kids a lot when she went away on business—-picked them up from school etc)
She may have made extra keys for friends who may have had an old key. And her parents. That would be a good question if any of W’s friends took the stand. She woudl need them to look over her home because she knew she was moving.

UPDAT: I may be confusing another time she wa sin Miami in June. I do always get those 2 trios confused. The time when she called the best boy guy from Miami probably using Donnas phone. June 11.

No, I’m saying Dan was supposed to get the kids when she came back from Miami, and she sent her parents to do the exchange, according to her police interview. I do not know whether he was going to come to her house or whether she was going to take them to him. But she said she was becoming sad at the thought of not being with them, so she had her parents do the exchange.

 

[amicuscurie]

I can’t imagine every stone wasn’t turned by the state as to any evidence Wendi was packing before Friday. Also, Jeff had stayed at her house during the first attempt. Remember the story of him running out to get her Pepto Bismol during the failed attempt – he was staying he at her place that time. There were no signs, at least that Jeff noticed, she was packed up during the first attempt, why would the second attempt be different?

That is a good question, although perhaps a sudden move was not planned for the first attempt. I do think the state has pursued any evidence of packing before the murder, we don’t know what they found or what they have. Some of it may be inferences such as some are making here.

To me, it sounds odd that one would be so sad about exchanging kids- that one has already been with for two weeks - such that one would need to ask someone else do the actual exchange; one would still have to say goodbye to them, hypothetically. I’m sure it happens, but it just sounded odd to me when I heard it, just my opinion. In general, when I listen to the police interview, I hear a pattern of volunteering lots of details and unnecessary (in my opinion) explanations in response to questions that weren’t specifically asked, but this is just my opinion.

 

[cottonweaver]

I can’t imagine every stone wasn’t turned by the state as to any evidence Wendi was packing before Friday. Also, Jeff had stayed at her house during the first attempt. Remember the story of him running out to get her Pepto Bismol during the failed attempt – he was staying he at her place that time. There were no signs, at least that Jeff noticed, she was packed up during the first attempt, why would the second attempt be different?

Are you sure he was staying at her place on June 4th?
He's testified that he never stayed overnight when Wendi had the kids, she had the kids on 4 June

 

[Going Rogue]

Are you sure he was staying at her place on June 4th?
He's testified that he never stayed overnight when Wendi had the kids, she had the kids on 4 June

When he made the ‘Pepto’ run he was at her house - that was during the week of the first attempt but I can’t confirm the actual date. I should have said he ‘was’ at her house not ‘stayed’ as that implies he slept over - he could have been there that one day or multiple days that week?. My point is had it been evident she was packing, he would have likely noticed.

 

[Going Rogue]

That is a good question, although perhaps a sudden move was not planned for the first attempt. I do think the state has pursued any evidence of packing before the murder, we don’t know what they found or what they have. Some of it may be inferences such as some are making here.

To me, it sounds odd that one would be so sad about exchanging kids- that one has already been with for two weeks - such that one would need to ask someone else do the actual exchange; one would still have to say goodbye to them, hypothetically. I’m sure it happens, but it just sounded odd to me when I heard it, just my opinion. In general, when I listen to the police interview, I hear a pattern of volunteering lots of details and unnecessary (in my opinion) explanations in response to questions that weren’t specifically asked, but this is just my opinion.

Right, we are all just speculating. Regarding her ‘odd’ behavior, we don’t really have any firsthand knowledge or baseline of how Wendi typically acts. Add to that, she is being brought in for questioning about her ex husband being shot and on his deathbed and the interview starts (at least what’s available to the public) with Isom drawing a line and making it clear he needs to establish her whereabouts that morning before he ‘gets into anything’. Involved or not, she didn’t have to be a rocket scientist to realize she was a suspect. I think its a very typical human reaction (if you weren’t involved) to overexplain things to help relieve the pressure if you think you are a suspect. I literally was in a similar situation where I was a suspect and brought in for questioning by the FBI in a large-scale grand larceny investigation – not murder, but its not a comfortable feeling to think you are being suspected of something ‘if’ you weren’t involved. I’m not saying Wendi wasn’t involved because some might interpret my comment that way, but I don’t think her volunteering a lot of ‘details and unnecessary information’ is a tell as to her involvement. Acting the way she acted might be consistent with someone innocent that is feeling the pressure of being a suspect.

 

[cottonweaver]

When he made the ‘Pepto’ run he was at her house - that was during the week of the first attempt but I can’t confirm the actual date. I should have said he ‘was’ at her house not ‘stayed’ as that implies he slept over - he could have been there that one day or multiple days that week?. My point is had it been evident she was packing, he would have likely noticed.

It's in the clip I sent you a few hours ago.
Pepto trip evening was June 4 and he says she had the kids and he says he didn't stay over.

Anyway...Personally I have no idea what pre-packing she actually did before the failed first hit or the second successful murder.
We barely know anything about what the state may already have but haven't deployed re Wendi.

I'm not surprised that - based on the pre-planning & pre-packing during ' Pearl Harbour' divorce flit- it's not just Tamara Demko who has wondered about this kind of thing.

All we had - as far as I can recall - there could well be more:
- Mr Keener going up later to collect rest of her stuff after the murder.
- Snippet - from R Markel? - about how full the car was,
- donating outgrown clothes ( R Cox??)
- & Wendi ( testifying??) that she only took what she needed for a few days because she'd intended to return. She would've been mad to pre-pack everything if the line-to-take was -
eg, ' I'm only leaving for a few days. This is not a relocation'

- anything else anybody can add to that list ( It's such a complicated case with so many details, it's very hard to recall them all)

Seriously, I don't even know if Aqua Ridge was rented furnished. I assume it was but I have no facts on that.