FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen *4 Guilty* #23

[amicuscurie]

I don't live there, but had a look on the map. If they were in Coral Springs, they would have had to have gone South past his house then went North to get to Orlando. Be interesting to know where they were staying.

If I recall correctly, at Charlie’s trial the state showed a text which was sent from Donna to Charlie around 8pm or so saying “outside your house,” and cell tower records have Donna arriving in Orlando around 1:30 am. The text to me is problematic to Donna’s defense for two interrelated reasons.

First, the text itself seems to me to indicate Donna stopped outside Charlie’s house, because it says “outside your house”. To counter this, at Charlie’s trial the defense claimed the text was sent from the Turnpike, and that the car did not stop.

This creates a second problem, because if the car was “passing by” FLL on the Turnpike at the time the text was sent, it would not take until 1:30 to arrive in Orlando, as cell tower records shown at trial indicate it did.

To solve this problem, it seems like the defense is claiming that SunPass records which no longer exist would show that the car got on the Turnpike at a time more consistent with Donna arriving in Orlando when cell tower records show she did. But this, to me seems to be inconsistent with the fact that the text they claim was sent FROM the Turnpike would have been sent much earlier than any such SunPass entry record, presumably.

So, in my opinion, I fail to see how there could have ever been any SunPass records which could have helped the defense overcome the two problems presented by the text.

Note: If Donna left from CS, North of FLL, she would be going backwards if the car was “passing by” FLL when the text was sent. In that case it seems to me that SunPass records might necessarily show the car exiting the Turnpike and getting back on at some point to go North. If that wasn’t for the purpose of stopping in FLL, then why?

Possibly, Donna could have avoided this by hypothetically taking I-95 from CS to go south. I-95 is not a toll road and would not create a SunPass record of that trip South. The car could then, hypothetically, have entered the Turnpike at FLL to go back North at a later time more consistent with the car’s arrival in Orlando per the cell tower records. The defense may think that a SunPass record of only this later entry would be helpful. But, the same problems I’ve listed above, with respect to the time of the text being earlier than the Turnpike entry, would still exist, in my opinion.

 

[cottonweaver]

My thoughts are that it is more likely they left from the family home than the condo in Miami.
I say that because they would have most likely taken I 95 from Miami (no tolls) if they left fromt he condo, and the Turnpike (Sunpass/tolls) if they left from the family home in Corals Springs to Charlies house (which is South/east from there), which would mean they were not “passing by”, because Charlies house is out of the way for them to go from the family home to Orlando.

So imo theres two reasons they want the Sunpass information out as evidence.
Sunpass=leaving from Coral Springs
“Passing by” = not true if they left from Coral Springs

I have been saying this for a long time, even here.
We shall see.
Interesting this is coming up now.

Yes, I did a WS search to look at the old discussions from January 2024 and there are maps
( Originally it was connected back to @amicuscurie, in late 2023, wondering about a second condo apartment at the Continuum and a second discussion topic where everybody was speculating about where Donna had kept the money after washing it. Condo, dental office, Coral G )

Pasting the old WS link because it's briefer than re-typing.

FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen *4 Guilty* #22

There were many moments during Rashbaum’s interview that turned my stomach. I had a very hard time watching it to the end but I did. Bringing up Dan Markel’s name and scholarship to defend his killers was beyond despicable. I hope a gag order will be put in place. Could Everett do that before...

www.websleuths.com

My personal view now is that it's unlikely they left from CGables - or stopped there to collect cash cause they could do that Thursday - and because of the points I've been making about 'advance planning' from both Wendi & the parents. I'm guessing that Donna really did book restaurant reservations for evening July 18

All I want to add on your other points is:
- Rashbaum did already raise this in Charlies trial ( He whines to Corbett about old Sunpass records being no longer available as exculpatory evidence )
- Corbett, during Charlie's trial, accepts that the Adelson parents departed from Miami night of 18th July. ( However, yes you'd hope that is all triple-checked now)
----------

Anyway, I hope that the State make the powerful arguments that amicuscurie has just made re the bogus Defense claims about Sunpass records being exculpatory. Fingers crossed

 

[amicuscurie]

Yes, I did a WS search to look at the old discussions from January 2024 and there are maps
( Originally it was connected back to @amicuscurie, in late 2023, wondering about a second condo apartment at the Continuum and a second discussion topic where everybody was speculating about where Donna had kept the money after washing it. Condo, dental office, Coral G )

Pasting the old WS link because it's briefer than re-typing.

FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen *4 Guilty* #22

There were many moments during Rashbaum’s interview that turned my stomach. I had a very hard time watching it to the end but I did. Bringing up Dan Markel’s name and scholarship to defend his killers was beyond despicable. I hope a gag order will be put in place. Could Everett do that before...

www.websleuths.com

My personal view now is that it's unlikely they left from CGables - or stopped there to collect cash cause they could do that Thursday - and because of the points I've been making about 'advance planning' from both Wendi & the parents. I'm guessing that Donna really did book restaurant reservations for evening July 18

All I want to add on your other points is:
- Rashbaum did already raise this in Charlies trial ( He whines to Corbett about old Sunpass records being no longer available as exculpatory evidence )
- Corbett, during Charlie's trial, accepts that the Adelson parents departed from Miami night of 18th July. ( However, yes you'd hope that is all triple-checked now)
----------

Anyway, I hope that the State make the powerful arguments that amicuscurie has just made re the bogus Defense claims about Sunpass records being exculpatory. Fingers crossed

Coral Springs, not Coral Gables. Common mix-up. Coral Gables is a suburb within the greater Miami-Dade County area, and it is South and West of Miami Beach. It’s not associated with this case in any way. I do agree there are a lot of Coral names in Florida. Coral Springs, location of the former Adelson family homestead, is North of Fort Lauderdale, in Broward County.

Otherwise, I agree with your post. I think they left from Miami. Leaving from CS would not have involved “passing by FLL” on the Turnpike at all, which the defense itself is claiming happened, if I recall correctly. If they left from CS, then Donna’s “outside your house” text, IMO, makes no sense other than as support for the state’s claim they stopped at Charlie’s house.

ETA: iMO the only way that any hypothetical SunPass records might help the defense in their claim that the text means that Donna was “passing by” FLL when they sent it, is such a record would have shown that the car got on the Turnpike just north of Miami Beach (there’s an entrance there) and did not get off until Orlando.

Hypothetically if such a record could have be found, the defense would be able to use it to argue that the text from Donna was sent while they were passing FLL. To the best of my knowledge, the closest entrance to the Turnpike if one leaves from Miami Beach is about 20 minutes south of FLL. The records would have to show that the car entered the closest Turnpike entrance from Miami Beach about 20 minutes or so before the text was sent. (These times are approximate, but I’m sure someone could do the actual math if the records existed).

In my opinion if the defense is claiming that a record of entering at the closest entrance to Miami Beach and not stopping did exist but doesn’t anymore, the car would have to be driving very slowly given the time cell tower records shown at Charlie’s trial have the car arriving in Orlando. Perhaps the defense might argue that the car stopped at a Turnpike rest area, I am not certain whether SunPass records would reflect that, and I am not aware that anyone claimed that.

If the car left from Miami Beach, there would be no reason for it to enter the Turnpike in FLL, as there is a much closer entrance, and so any hypothetical SunPass records showing any such entry in FLL would not be helpful, in my opinion.

 

[Knitpicker]

Yes, I did a WS search to look at the old discussions from January 2024 and there are maps
( Originally it was connected back to @amicuscurie, in late 2023, wondering about a second condo apartment at the Continuum and a second discussion topic where everybody was speculating about where Donna had kept the money after washing it. Condo, dental office, Coral G )

Pasting the old WS link because it's briefer than re-typing.

FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen *4 Guilty* #22

There were many moments during Rashbaum’s interview that turned my stomach. I had a very hard time watching it to the end but I did. Bringing up Dan Markel’s name and scholarship to defend his killers was beyond despicable. I hope a gag order will be put in place. Could Everett do that before...

www.websleuths.com

My personal view now is that it's unlikely they left from CGables - or stopped there to collect cash cause they could do that Thursday - and because of the points I've been making about 'advance planning' from both Wendi & the parents. I'm guessing that Donna really did book restaurant reservations for evening July 18

All I want to add on your other points is:
- Rashbaum did already raise this in Charlies trial ( He whines to Corbett about old Sunpass records being no longer available as exculpatory evidence )
- Corbett, during Charlie's trial, accepts that the Adelson parents departed from Miami night of 18th July. ( However, yes you'd hope that is all triple-checked now)
----------

Anyway, I hope that the State make the powerful arguments that amicuscurie has just made re the bogus Defense claims about Sunpass records being exculpatory. Fingers crossed

You are confusing Coral Gables with Coral Springs I think.

 

[Knitpicker]

Coral Springs, not Coral Gables. Common mix-up. Coral Gables is a suburb within the greater Miami-Dade County area, and it is South and West of Miami Beach. It’s not associated with this case in any way. I do agree there are a lot of Coral names in Florida. Coral Springs, location of the former Adelson family homestead, is North of Fort Lauderdale, in Broward County.

Otherwise, I agree with your post. I think they left from Miami. Leaving from CS would not have involved “passing by FLL” on the Turnpike at all, which the defense itself is claiming happened, if I recall correctly. If they left from CS, then Donna’s “outside your house” text, IMO, makes no sense other than as support for the state’s claim they stopped at Charlie’s house.

ETA: iMO the only way that any hypothetical SunPass records might help the defense in their claim that the text means that Donna was “passing by” FLL when they sent it, is such a record would have shown that the car got on the Turnpike just north of Miami Beach (there’s an entrance there) and did not get off until Orlando.

Hypothetically if such a record could have be found, the defense would be able to use it to argue that the text from Donna was sent while they were passing FLL. To the best of my knowledge, the closest entrance to the Turnpike if one leaves from Miami Beach is about 20 minutes south of FLL. The records would have to show that the car entered the closest Turnpike entrance from Miami Beach about 20 minutes or so before the text was sent. (These times are approximate, but I’m sure someone could do the actual math if the records existed).

In my opinion if the defense is claiming that a record of entering at the closest entrance to Miami Beach and not stopping did exist but doesn’t anymore, the car would have to be driving very slowly given the time cell tower records shown at Charlie’s trial have the car arriving in Orlando. Perhaps the defense might argue that the car stopped at a Turnpike rest area, I am not certain whether SunPass records would reflect that, and I am not aware that anyone claimed that.

If the car left from Miami Beach, there would be no reason for it to enter the Turnpike in FLL, as there is a much closer entrance, and so any hypothetical SunPass records showing any such entry in FLL would not be helpful, in my opinion.

They could still be passing by if it just means that they determined to pass by. Even if out of their way.

 

[Knitpicker]

If I recall correctly, at Charlie’s trial the state showed a text which was sent from Donna to Charlie around 8pm or so saying “outside your house,” and cell tower records have Donna arriving in Orlando around 1:30 am. The text to me is problematic to Donna’s defense for two interrelated reasons.

First, the text itself seems to me to indicate Donna stopped outside Charlie’s house, because it says “outside your house”. To counter this, at Charlie’s trial the defense claimed the text was sent from the Turnpike, and that the car did not stop.

This creates a second problem, because if the car was “passing by” FLL on the Turnpike at the time the text was sent, it would not take until 1:30 to arrive in Orlando, as cell tower records shown at trial indicate it did.

To solve this problem, it seems like the defense is claiming that SunPass records which no longer exist would show that the car got on the Turnpike at a time more consistent with Donna arriving in Orlando when cell tower records show she did. But this, to me seems to be inconsistent with the fact that the text they claim was sent FROM the Turnpike would have been sent much earlier than any such SunPass entry record, presumably.

So, in my opinion, I fail to see how there could have ever been any SunPass records which could have helped the defense overcome the two problems presented by the text.

Note: If Donna left from CS, North of FLL, she would be going backwards if the car was “passing by” FLL when the text was sent. In that case it seems to me that SunPass records might necessarily show the car exiting the Turnpike and getting back on at some point to go North. If that wasn’t for the purpose of stopping in FLL, then why?

Possibly, Donna could have avoided this by hypothetically taking I-95 from CS to go south. I-95 is not a toll road and would not create a SunPass record of that trip South. The car could then, hypothetically, have entered the Turnpike at FLL to go back North at a later time more consistent with the car’s arrival in Orlando per the cell tower records. The defense may think that a SunPass record of only this later entry would be helpful. But, the same problems I’ve listed above, with respect to the time of the text being earlier than the Turnpike entry, would still exist, in my opinion.

They would not have been taking the turnpike to get to Charlies house from Miami. You hit I95 first and would stay on it.

 

[Knitpicker]

T

why would they want the Sunpass records if they would prove that they were NOT passing by? Passing by helps them.

Because the Sunpass records would prove they didn’t leave from Miami and they were not “passing by” or meaning that Charlies was on the “way” to Orlando.

 

[Knitpicker]

I don't live there, but had a look on the map. If they were in Coral Springs, they would have had to have gone South past his house then went North to get to Orlando. Be interesting to know where they were staying.

South East..

 

[cottonweaver]

You are confusing Coral Gables with Coral Springs I think.

D'oh! Yes I know. I wasn't in the original posts - I just started that today! Slip of the tongue - luckily it was obvious what I meant from my reply to your post which was about whether DA & WA left from Coral Springs or Miami!

( PS When you get chance, have a look back at the old posts and yours on the WA holiday plan. Good catch. Had forgotten )

 

[amicuscurie]

They could still be passing by if it just means that they determined to pass by. Even if out of their way.

That’s a question for the jury, they can certainly argue that Donna meant to be passing by Charlie’s house on the Turnpike that day after she left from Coral Springs, and they can evaluate the credibility of that claim. Arguably, that backwards detour to pass by Charlie might account for why the cell tower records show the car arrived in Orlando when it did. IF SunPass records existed showing the car getting onto the Turnpike in FLL, (presumably after having driven there from CS via another route), which would a jury find more believable, that she left from CS, went backwards and “passed by” Charlie’s house, and then got back on the Turnpike to go North, or that she there deliberately? And are they entitled to argue that they were prejudiced by not being allowed to hunt for records which show them getting on the Turnpike at FLL in order to be able to argue the former interpretation?

 

[Knitpicker]

D'oh! Yes I know. I wasn't in the original posts - I just started that today! Slip of the tongue - luckily it was obvious what I meant from my reply to your post which was about whether DA & WA left from Coral Springs or Miami!

( PS When you get chance, have a look back at the old posts and yours on the WA holiday plan. Good catch. Had forgotten )

Holiday plan? Yes I reacted to only comments to me. Then I read where others corrected you. Sorry about that.
Do you mean taking her father to Machu Piccu (sp) for 2 weeks the summer of the murder?

 

[Knitpicker]

That’s a question for the jury, they can certainly argue that Donna meant to be passing by Charlie’s house on the Turnpike that day after she left from Coral Springs, and they can evaluate the credibility of that claim. Arguably, that backwards detour to pass by Charlie might account for why the cell tower records show the car arrived in Orlando when it did. IF SunPass records existed showing the car getting onto the Turnpike in FLL, (presumably after having driven there from CS via another route), which would a jury find more believable, that she left from CS, went backwards and “passed by” Charlie’s house, and then got back on the Turnpike to go North, or that she there deliberately? And are they entitled to argue that they were prejudiced by not being allowed to hunt for records which show them getting on the Turnpike at FLL in order to be able to argue the former interpretation?

Lol my head is spinning…..trying to think this through. The “passing by” could have been an intentional “passing by” or “on the way”.
If they don’t have the Sunpass records, theres no way to prove it.
If you listen to W with Isom, when he asked where her family is at she says Coral Springs.
She also said this at Charlies trial.
So if she is to be believed (as hard as that sounds), they left from the family home.
This was a subject that greatly disturbed another commenter here months ago-so I guess in one month we will have more answers.

 

[amicuscurie]

Lol my head is spinning…..trying to think this through. The “passing by” could have been an intentional “passing by” or “on the way”.
If they don’t have the Sunpass records, theres no way to prove it.
If you listen to W with Isom, when he asked where her family is at she says Coral Springs.
She also said this at Charlies trial.
So if she is to be believed (as hard as that sounds), they left from the family home.
This was a subject that greatly disturbed another commenter here months ago-so I guess in one month we will have more answers.

Yes, in the interview with Isom, if I recall correctly, she is asked where her folks live, and she says Coral Springs.

However, as I recall, later she is with the victim advocate, who asks her who she would like to come be with her. She says her parents. The victim advocate asks where they are. If I recall correctly, she does not say Coral Springs this time.

From my recollection, she says (paraphrasing from memory): that they are really in love with each other, have been married a long time and work together, and that their son Charlie got them a place in Miami Beach to see how they might like living there. She then says (paraphrasing from memory) that they spend part of the time there, and that if today is Friday, they would be in Miami.

(Hypothetically in my opinion one reason to mention that your parents happen to have a condo in Miami that your brother got for them to see how they like living there, might be because you want the person you’re telling to know why they have this condo, and how they came to have it.)

 

[BobbieJ]

Lol my head is spinning…..trying to think this through. The “passing by” could have been an intentional “passing by” or “on the way”.
If they don’t have the Sunpass records, theres no way to prove it.
If you listen to W with Isom, when he asked where her family is at she says Coral Springs.
She also said this at Charlies trial.
So if she is to be believed (as hard as that sounds), they left from the family home.
This was a subject that greatly disturbed another commenter here months ago-so I guess in one month we will have more answers.

LE have cell tower records. I'm not sure if it will show DA and HA outside CA's house, but it will still show them in Miami at 10.30pm and show that they didn't arrive in Orlando till 1.30am. So DA will have to come up with some *advertiser censored* and bull story of what they were doing between 9pm and 10.30pm when they were supposedly driving to Orlando, but were in fact at CAs.

 

[BobbieJ]

That’s a question for the jury, they can certainly argue that Donna meant to be passing by Charlie’s house on the Turnpike that day after she left from Coral Springs, and they can evaluate the credibility of that claim. Arguably, that backwards detour to pass by Charlie might account for why the cell tower records show the car arrived in Orlando when it did. IF SunPass records existed showing the car getting onto the Turnpike in FLL, (presumably after having driven there from CS via another route), which would a jury find more believable, that she left from CS, went backwards and “passed by” Charlie’s house, and then got back on the Turnpike to go North, or that she there deliberately? And are they entitled to argue that they were prejudiced by not being allowed to hunt for records which show them getting on the Turnpike at FLL in order to be able to argue the former interpretation?

I'm not sure I understand you. DA was at CA's house or passing by his house at 9PM then arrived in Orlando at 1.30AM. It only takes 2.55 to get from CA's house on Whale Harbour Lane to Orlando which means DA's phone should have first registered with an Orlando cell tower at around 12.00am not 1.30am.

 

[amicuscurie]

I'm not sure I understand you. DA was at CA's house or passing by his house at 9PM then arrived in Orlando at 1.30AM. It only takes 2.55 to get from CA's house on Whale Harbour Lane to Orlando which means DA's phone should have first registered with an Orlando cell tower at around 12.00am not 1.30am.

Thats what I’m saying. I just don’t see how any SunPass record would help the defense prove anything with regard to why the phone first pinged at 1:30.

 

[Knitpicker]

Yes, in the interview with Isom, if I recall correctly, she is asked where her folks live, and she says Coral Springs.

However, as I recall, later she is with the victim advocate, who asks her who she would like to come be with her. She says her parents. The victim advocate asks where they are. If I recall correctly, she does not say Coral Springs this time.

From my recollection, she says (paraphrasing from memory): that they are really in love with each other, have been married a long time and work together, and that their son Charlie got them a place in Miami Beach to see how they might like living there. She then says (paraphrasing from memory) that they spend part of the time there, and that if today is Friday, they would be in Miami.

(Hypothetically in my opinion one reason to mention that your parents happen to have a condo in Miami that your brother got for them to see how they like living there, might be because you want the person you’re telling to know why they have this condo, and how they came to have it.)

Yeah right..but when Isom asked “where are your parents at” I was thinking he meant right then and there.

 

[Zedzded]

Thats what I’m saying. I just don’t see how any SunPass record would help the defense prove anything with regard to why the phone first pinged at 1:30.

Yeah I'm confused as to why DR is even mentioning the Sunpass issue. It seems irrelevant. But I'm also confused as to why he is not going with the story that DA and HA did go to CA's house. It's something that can be easily explained. CA's parents popped in to say hello and check on him on their way to Tallahassee. It's not particularly incriminating. Why the hell would they lie about that and drop them all in the ?

Because assuming the State can show DA did go to CA's house then that really strengthens the argument that this was when the money drop happened.

 

[Zedzded]

Yeah right..but when Isom asked “where are your parents at” I was thinking he meant right then and there.

So we don't know which house DA and HA were in on the day of the 18th of July? It would be great if it was Coral Springs.

 

[amicuscurie]

Yeah right..but when Isom asked “where are your parents at” I was thinking he meant right then and there.

It’s strange to me that she says Coral Springs and then goes into the detail about the Miami place, it’s true.