Found Deceased FL - Madeline Soto, 13, Missing Child Alert, 13500 blk Town Loop Blvd, Orlando, 26 Feb 2024 *arrest* #10

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notbornyesterday said:
I think he intended to drop her body there at the church or near the school also and someone was there. Also, I think he realized that he had blown it by throwing away her backpack and laptop and crocs at the condo dumpster. I think he did that before thinking it out and realizing that she would have those things with her had she been kidnapped and killed after he dropped her off. I think the trip back for the clicker was actually to get those things but they were probably already compacted in the trash dumpster. He knew he screwed up. BUT how in God's name is he so cool at grandma's business when the cops come. That blows my mind. He had to know he had screwed up and was probably going to be busted at that point. Why didn't he just run? I also think he had every intention then of putting her in Alligator Lake hoping that she would be eaten but he got the flat.
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Agree! I think the calmness he displayed was solely a result of the amount of tranqs he was admittedly on.
 
Anika said:
Agree! I think the calmness he displayed was solely a result of the amount of tranqs he was admittedly on.
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Which is also quite ridiculous he uses this term "Tranqs"... cuz he was probably just taking a ton of Ativan which is technically a benzo..... SS likes to use BIG words to make himself feel so smart. He's just so UGH. Why would you be taking any BENZOs or "Tranquilizers" if your child/stepchild is missing!?!?! You need to get your stuff together and go FIND her. Not sit around and self medicate!!!!!!

<modsnip - off topic>
 
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ttjo said:
Maybe I misunderstood what you meant when you said Rigor hadn't started yet? I didnt understand the association between muscles needed to keep your mouth closed and rigor not starting yet? your mouth opens when you die, rigor locks it open later. or maybe I need a coffee? lo
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This should help. I give up if it doesn't. lol Not like I haven't given this the old college try! :D
  • It takes rigor ~2 hrs to start
  • It starts in the face (and mouth) first, before the rest of the body.
  • So, if she was slack jawed (my words), then she is newly dead. Why? Because rigor hasn't started. See 1st bullet. Obviously this is JMO! :)
  • And as a reminder.... Rigor mortis appears approximately 2 hours after death in the muscles of the face, progresses to the limbs over the next few hours, completing between 6 to 8 hours after death.[10] Rigor mortis then stays for another 12 hours (till 24 hours after death) and then disappears. Source
    • LE saw her LIMP, being moved to the trunk, ~13 hrs after she was dropped off at home by her aunt. The bullet above says it takes ~24 hrs from start to finish.
And it's not just that rigor locks your mouth how it was when you died, it tightens the muscles.

rigor mortis begins to appear in the muscles of the eyelids and the jaw (at the earliest, approximately 20 min postmortem); the jaw tightens due to stiffening of the masticatory muscles.

I'm definitely not an expert in rigor, far from it. Pretty much everything I've learned about it I've learned today. So I could be wrong with what tightening of the jaw means. I'd think it would be how my jaw is now (from a weeks old stressor, not this conversation. lol). My jaw keeps tightening (as do my shoulders and back) and none of those things are in a relaxed position. When my jaw tightens it's definitely not relaxed and no way in heck could be gap when it's torqued up like it is.

Wish we had a rigor expert in the thread. :)
 
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Gemmie said:
This should help. I give up if it doesn't. lol Not like I haven't given this the old college try! :D
  • It takes rigor ~2 hrs to start
  • It starts in the face (and mouth) first, before the rest of the body.
  • So, if she was slack jawed (my words), then she is newly dead. Why? Because rigor hasn't started. See 1st bullet. Obviously this is JMO! :)
  • And as a reminder.... Rigor mortis appears approximately 2 hours after death in the muscles of the face, progresses to the limbs over the next few hours, completing between 6 to 8 hours after death.[10] Rigor mortis then stays for another 12 hours (till 24 hours after death) and then disappears. Source
    • LE saw her LIMP, being moved to the trunk, ~13 hrs after she was dropped off at home by her aunt. The bullet above says it takes ~24 hrs from start to finish.
And it's not just that rigor locks your mouth how it was when you died, it tightens the muscles.

rigor mortis begins to appear in the muscles of the eyelids and the jaw (at the earliest, approximately 20 min postmortem); the jaw tightens due to stiffening of the masticatory muscles.

I'm definitely not an expert in rigor, far from it. Pretty much everything I've learned about it I've learned today. So I could be wrong with what tightening of the jaw means. I'd think it would be how my jaw is now (from a weeks old stressor, not this conversation. lol). My jaw keeps tightening (as do my shoulders and back) and none of those things are in a relaxed position. When my jaw tightens it's definitely not relaxed and no way in heck could be gap when it's torqued up like it is.

Wish we had a rigor expert in the thread. :)
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Your last question….. we do! …… take a bow, go get a mirror, and also a big cup of that coffee. :)

Kidding aside….. good work there! Seriously. MOO
 
ttjo said:
I always thought it took muscles to keep your mouth closed.

This article says when a person is about to die the body relaxes, facial muscles relax and the jaw can drop. (Mouth open ) after death, once the brain can no longer send signals to muscles or no saliva to unconsciously swallow. It will remain in that position after death (the facial muscles are the first to freeze can be 20 min into rigor)
Basically it's saying the mouth opens shortly before death/ and before rigor sets in and will remain that way if not closed before it locks.
article about stages of rigor.
www.medicinenet.com

Rigor Mortis: Overview, Causes, 6 Stages, Duration, Death

Rigor mortis is the third stage after death, in which the muscles harden and become stiff. Learn about its causes, stages, and more.
www.medicinenet.com www.medicinenet.com

If anyone has been with a person dying they might remember having to swab someone's lips with a little sponge.
Was there only one video that they said her mouth was open or 2? ( which would show time) I know they said her body was in the same position, (mouth open?) I'm assuming thats why they think she was already deceased in those early morning videos.
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I’ve been with several people when they died at home. When I called hospice to report the passing, I was instructed to roll up a towel and place it under their chin to hold the mouth closed since it might be a few hours before a nurse could come pronounce and deal with the body.

Have any of you seen a version of “A Christmas Carol” where the ghost of Scrooge wears a handcherchief around his head, encircling his face? That’s the dead Scrooge with his jaw tied up after death — the Victorian solution to anticipated rigor.

So related to MS, seeing her in car with mouth open doesn’t necessarily mean her jaw dropped right then because she is upright. If she died and no one dealt with her lower jaw before rigor, she could have an open mouth later in the car. OMO.

Added: But then considering @iamshadow21’s comment above, if her jaw was dropped and remained if she was in rigor, I imagine it’s pretty difficult to bend even a small body to a seated position (although I understand it’s not impossible).
 
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LetsSolvIt said:
I’ve been with several people when they died at home. When I called hospice to report the passing, I was instructed to roll up a towel and place it under their chin to hold the mouth closed since it might be a few hours before a nurse could come pronounce and deal with the body.

Have any of you seen a version of “A Christmas Carol” where the ghost of Scrooge wears a handcherchief around his head, encircling his face? That’s the dead Scrooge with his jaw tied up after death — the Victorian solution to anticipated rigor.

So related to MS, seeing her in car with mouth open doesn’t necessarily mean her jaw dropped right then because she is upright. If she died and no one dealt with her lower jaw before rigor, she could have an open mouth later in the car. OMO.
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yes, thats what I think was trying to say. lol ( not very well obviously)
 
LetsSolvIt said:
I’ve been with several people when they died at home. When I called hospice to report the passing, I was instructed to roll up a towel and place it under their chin to hold the mouth closed since it might be a few hours before a nurse could come pronounce and deal with the body.

Have any of you seen a version of “A Christmas Carol” where the ghost of Scrooge wears a handcherchief around his head, encircling his face? That’s the dead Scrooge with his jaw tied up after death — the Victorian solution to anticipated rigor.

So related to MS, seeing her in car with mouth open doesn’t necessarily mean her jaw dropped right then because she is upright. If she died and no one dealt with her lower jaw before rigor, she could have an open mouth later in the car. OMO.
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Perfect! Where have you been all day?? Kidding. :) Seriously though... good info. :)

Do you know anything about this?

rigor mortis begins to appear in the muscles of the eyelids and the jaw (at the earliest, approximately 20 min postmortem); the jaw tightens due to stiffening of the masticatory muscles.

If the jaw tightening during rigor is anything like my jaw tightening (and my back and shoulders) then I'm thinking the tightening would pull a slack jaw shut, or at least more shut than it was (ajar is the word LE used. Pg 35).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/rigor-mortis#:~:text=Shortly thereafter, rigor mortis begins,stiffening of the masticatory muscles.

Because I could take "tightening" two ways. Tightens like my shoulders when stressed and they act like ear warmers (pulling up), or tightens in whatever position it was in, but hard to move. More like frozen.
 
ttjo said:
yes, thats what I think was trying to say. lol ( not very well obviously)
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I hope you know when I've laughed at a few of your recent posts it wasn't at you, it was with you, @ttjo. I just realized some might have taken my laugh reactions the wrong way so wanted to clarify. :) Plus, I'm a believer that laughter is good for one's soul. :)
 
Gemmie said:
Perfect! Where have you been all day?? Kidding. :) Seriously though... good info. :)

Do you know anything about this?

rigor mortis begins to appear in the muscles of the eyelids and the jaw (at the earliest, approximately 20 min postmortem); the jaw tightens due to stiffening of the masticatory muscles.

If the jaw tightening during rigor is anything like my jaw tightening (and my back and shoulders) then I'm thinking the tightening would pull a slack jaw shut, or at least more shut than it was (ajar is the word LE used. Pg 35).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/rigor-mortis#:~:text=Shortly thereafter, rigor mortis begins,stiffening of the masticatory muscles.

Because I could take "tightening" two ways. Tightens like my shoulders when stressed and they act like ear warmers (pulling up), or tightens in whatever position it was in, but hard to move. More like frozen.
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Not an expert on rigor mortis. Just know it’s suggested to prop the lower jaw closed after death — aesthetics, not any other reason. JMO.

“Setting the features is a mortuary term for the closing of the eyes and the mouth of a deceased person such that the cadaver is presentable as being in a state of rest and repose, and thus more suitable for viewing. While it is one of the first stages of embalming, it is also commonly done as a token of respect even when the deceased is not viewed or is directly cremated.”

*Warning* kind of gruesome — explains body prep (you won’t want to be embalmed) :

Setting the features - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
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Gemmie said:
I hope you know when I've laughed at a few of your recent posts it wasn't at you, it was with you, @ttjo. I just realized some might have taken my laugh reactions the wrong way so wanted to clarify. :)
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oh. no worries at all. I knew that, we're all just trying to understand all this stuff. Not that it actually matters that we understand b/c L/e has it covered, it's just interesting to learn.
 
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LetsSolvIt said:
*Warning* kind of gruesome — explains body prep (you won’t want to be embalmed) :

Setting the features - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
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Thank you for your answer!

And I don't have to read it to know that I wouldn't want to be embalmed (Just recently had a convo about that). :) Stuffing me with chemicals, that leach into the soil (if you go that route)... Uh.... no thank you. :)
 
LetsSolvIt said:
What leaches into soil is the least of what’s distasteful. Ugh.
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I guess it's now you look at it. :) (And I TOTALLY get how some people think about this) It's either chemicals...

Arsenic (As) can leach into water, affecting aquatic life and the food chain. Formaldehyde can contaminate groundwater, risking drinking water and causing health problems.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Impact on Environmental Health from Cemetery Waste in Middle Tennessee

The burial of caskets with arsenic-treated wood and formaldehyde-based embalming fluids can harm the environment and health. Arsenic (As) can leach into water, affecting aquatic life and the food chain. Formaldehyde can contaminate groundwater, risking ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

or organic mass. The body is organic. I understand how some can think it's distasteful, but it is natural over stuffing it full with chemicals that create a problem for life down the road. :) All MOO
 
Gemmie said:
I guess it's now you look at it. :) (And I TOTALLY get how some people think about this) It's either chemicals...

Arsenic (As) can leach into water, affecting aquatic life and the food chain. Formaldehyde can contaminate groundwater, risking drinking water and causing health problems.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Impact on Environmental Health from Cemetery Waste in Middle Tennessee

The burial of caskets with arsenic-treated wood and formaldehyde-based embalming fluids can harm the environment and health. Arsenic (As) can leach into water, affecting aquatic life and the food chain. Formaldehyde can contaminate groundwater, risking ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

or organic mass. The body is organic. I understand how some can think it's distasteful, but it is natural over stuffing it full with chemicals that create a problem for life down the road. :) All MOO
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I think I agree with you. Cremation seems so cleansing to me but it’s a very personal decision for each family. I respect that. Probably getting OT. I’m done! OMHO.
 
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Latest GHI includes this photo of SS in younger days, which I don’t think we’ve seen. I’m probably reading too much into his affect but seems revealing. MOO.

 

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LetsSolvIt said:
Latest GHI includes this photo of SS in younger days, which I don’t think we’ve seen. I’m probably reading too much into his affect but seems revealing. MOO.

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What an effing dork. I am one month older than Stephan but I look about 15 years younger than he (not even tooting my own horn). But at 16 or 18 or whatever age we'd have been then, I could already have told you he was a loser.
 
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