Found Deceased FL - Madeline Soto, 13, Missing Child Alert, 13500 blk Town Loop Blvd, Orlando, 26 Feb 2024 *arrest* #10

[Gemmie]

I just saw this in a newly created WS thread. We've all wondered what SS did on Telegram that Sunday evening. Here's one of the kinds of things that goes on in the encrypted app.

NY - Gay *advertiser censored* star Austin Wolf busted for trading CSAM - June 28, 2024

https://tinyurl.com/2p95zznn Justin Heath Smith, 43, who uses “Austin Wolf” as his stage name, traded the horrific videos — including one showing a 10-year-old child bound and raped — with an anonymous target of an FBI probe on the encrypted app Telegram, authorities said.

www.websleuths.com

 

[photoprose1122]

Interesting, looks like that came through the 12th circuit court as well, when all the warrants in the doc came through the 9th. Is that maybe closer to his parents house?

The stop after the vape shop, where he continues north on John Young Parkway, is (eyeballing from the map image on the doc) about here CubeSmart Self Storage · Orlando, Florida right by this CubeSmart Self Storage. Wherever he was, it was only about 10 minutes. I assume all storage facilities have a lot of cameras, but nothing is mentioned in the big doc dump.

True - IIRC there was a life storage in north port so that would make sense

 

[Mack the Knife]

It's very interesting that LE didn't show them the video at the church. It's an ace up the sleeve imo. I think it's a game of cat,and mouse. It's also very interesting that It's not mentioned if the person on Video was shown getting out of the vehicle iirc,and I haven't heard Jen asking where they came from ie did they walk, get dropped off there? So many red flags. MOO

What do you mean ace up the sleeve?

FWIW, law enforcement did show her a still from the footage at the church: Scribd There is a car and a girl, and she says she doesn’t recognize the car or the girl, but the girl could possibly be MS based on clothing. It seems like footage isn’t particularly clear.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I think you think rigor passes a lot quicker than it does. The timeline for it to develop and pass is closer to a full day.

MOO

Here's what I was basing that opinion on but you may well be correct, maybe Madeline was stiff while seat belted into the car, and I believe they said leaning to the left in an unnatural way:

<snipped>

1. Rigor mortis: Following death, the body will turn stiff over a few hours. The muscles become loose and limp with death, yet the entire body will stiffen after a couple of hours because the muscle fibers contract and freeze and cannot disengage and relax.
2. Livor mortis: This is the last phase of death. When the heart stops pumping, the blood is pulled by gravity and begins to collect in certain areas depending on the position of the body. Lividity begins with the skin where the blood has settled, giving it a bright red tone. After a few hours, the color changes from red to blue or purple. This can take about 6-8 hours.

Rigor Mortis: Overview, Causes, 6 Stages, Duration, Death

 

[girlhasnoname]

342/896 View attachment 513974

This child was eight years old, I doubt she was actively performing anything, it was probably just a 3 second oral rape by SS.

moo

 

[Gemmie]

Here's what I was basing that opinion on but you may well be correct, maybe Madeline was stiff while seat belted into the car, and I believe they said leaning to the left in an unnatural way:

It was said that she was slumped with her mouth ajar at 7:50am, and limp at 9:40am. While I have no experience with dead bodies, thank goodness, I wouldn't think an ajar mouth would indicate rigor. That seems like a totally relaxed position to me.

Pg 35: The female appeared to be completely slumped over and with her mouth ajar.

Pg 31: I observed a male at 0750 hours with a female wearing a green sweater in the front seat. This person appeared to be sitting upright with her head slumped over to her left side.

Pg 36: approximately 0940 hours <snip> The male then walked to the front passenger side of the vehicle, opened the door, and proceeded to carry what appeared to be a limp body to the trunk of the vehicle

1. Rigor mortis: Following death, the body will turn stiff over a few hours. The muscles become loose and limp with death, yet the entire body will stiffen after a couple of hours because the muscle fibers contract and freeze and cannot disengage and relax.
2. Livor mortis: This is the last phase of death. When the heart stops pumping, the blood is pulled by gravity and begins to collect in certain areas depending on the position of the body. Lividity begins with the skin where the blood has settled, giving it a bright red tone. After a few hours, the color changes from red to blue or purple. This can take about 6-8 hours.

Rigor Mortis: Overview, Causes, 6 Stages, Duration, Death

What I found about rigor might help determine the time of death.

While rigor mortis develops simultaneously in all muscle tissue in the body, voluntary and involuntary, the size of the muscle determines the perceptibility of changes by the examiner. Smaller muscles over the face – around the eyes, around the mouth, etc. are the muscles where rigor mortis first appears, followed by rigor mortis of the muscles in the hands and upper limbs, and finally appears in the large muscles of the lower limbs. Rigor mortis appears approximately 2 hours after death in the muscles of the face, progresses to the limbs over the next few hours, completing between 6 to 8 hours after death.[10] Rigor mortis then stays for another 12 hours (till 24 hours after death) and then disappears.[11]

In the last phase of rigor mortis, the actin-myosin complex that has formed starts disintegrating due to proteolysis, resulting in the dissolution of the stiffness. This process begins in all the cells at the same time. However, just like with the appearance, this change is perceptible first in the smaller muscles of the face, followed by muscles of the upper limbs, and finally, the large muscles in the lower limbs. Rigor mortis generally disappears 36 hours after death, followed by a phase known as secondary flaccidity.

Methods of Estimation of Time Since Death - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Forensic pathologists are essentially required to estimate the time since death (TSD) to assist in death investigation by limiting the investigation period and thus helping narrow down the number of suspects in homicide cases. TSD also provides valuable information in establishing the timeline...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

With all that said about the timing of rigor, and where it starts (smaller muscles of the face), and progresses to the limbs over the next few hours (so we're approximately at hour 4 now)... If her mouth was ajar at 7:50, I don't think it had set in yet, and her body limp at 9:40 (ditto)... Would one surmise she was killed shortly before SS threw her belongings into the garbage at 7:35? Or can someone come up with how it could have been done before midnight and when SS was on Telegram (I think it was 11:49am or so), which I felt is when she was killed... yet I can't make that time work if I include the stages of rigor in my theory.

So, if she was killed at 11:30 Sunday night, and SS was throwing her things away ~8 hrs later, she's be fully stiff, not limp, nor with an ajar mouth, as rigor completes between 6 to 8 hours after death and starts with the face/mouth. At least I think that's how it would be.

All MOO

 

[ttjo]

It was said that she was slumped with her mouth ajar at 7:50am, and limp at 9:40am. While I have no experience with dead bodies, thank goodness, I wouldn't think an ajar mouth would indicate rigor. That seems like a totally relaxed position to me.


So, if she was killed at 11:30 Sunday night, and SS was throwing her things away ~8 hrs later, she's be fully stiff, not limp, nor with an ajar mouth, as rigor completes between 6 to 8 hours after death and starts with the face/mouth. At least I think that's how it would be.

All MOO

I always thought it took muscles to keep your mouth closed.

This article says when a person is about to die the body relaxes, facial muscles relax and the jaw can drop. (Mouth open ) after death, once the brain can no longer send signals to muscles or no saliva to unconsciously swallow. It will remain in that position after death (the facial muscles are the first to freeze can be 20 min into rigor)
Basically it's saying the mouth opens shortly before death/ and before rigor sets in and will remain that way if not closed before it locks.
article about stages of rigor.

Rigor Mortis: Overview, Causes, 6 Stages, Duration, Death

Rigor mortis is the third stage after death, in which the muscles harden and become stiff. Learn about its causes, stages, and more.

www.medicinenet.com

If anyone has been with a person dying they might remember having to swab someone's lips with a little sponge.
Was there only one video that they said her mouth was open or 2? ( which would show time) I know they said her body was in the same position, (mouth open?) I'm assuming thats why they think she was already deceased in those early morning videos.

 

[ttjo]

Only reference to mouth ajar in the 896 doc

 

[Gemmie]

I always thought it took muscles to keep your mouth closed.

Right, which was the point of my post. Rigor hadn't started, which is in the face first, approximately 2 hrs after death. So, now I'm rethinking Maddie being killed before midnight, or she'd have been ~8 hrs into rigor when she was seen on video (mouth ajar and limp body ~ an hour later when moved to the trunk).

From my post that was edited out:

Smaller muscles over the face – around the eyes, around the mouth, etc. are the muscles where rigor mortis first appears, followed by rigor mortis of the muscles in the hands and upper limbs, and finally appears in the large muscles of the lower limbs. Rigor mortis appears approximately 2 hours after death in the muscles of the face

... and progresses to the limbs over the next few hours, completing between 6 to 8 hours after death.

IF she was killed before midnight, as I thought likely, rigor would have been completed by the time she was seen on various videos which throws a wrench into my theory.

Was there only one video that they said her mouth was open or 2? ( which would show time) I know they said her body was in the same position, (mouth open?)

I found only 1 instance searching for mouth. (Pg 35) But, several mentions of her slumped. People don't slump if they are going through rigor. I'm thinking slumping would happen pre-rigor, which starts ~2 hours after death in the face, and completes ~6-8 hours after death according to:

Methods of Estimation of Time Since Death - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Forensic pathologists are essentially required to estimate the time since death (TSD) to assist in death investigation by limiting the investigation period and thus helping narrow down the number of suspects in homicide cases. TSD also provides valuable information in establishing the timeline...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And with all due respect, I'm going with what NIH says on that matter (National Library of Medicine - National Center for Biotechnology Information), over an article on MedicineNet. I'm open to seeing other sources to potentially sway me away from NIH though.

 

[ttjo]

Right, which was the point of my post. Rigor hadn't started, which is in the face first, approximately 2 hrs after death. So, now I'm rethinking Maddie being killed before midnight, or she'd have been ~8 hrs into rigor when she was seen on video (mouth ajar and limp body ~ an hour later when moved to the trunk).

From my post that was edited out:

Smaller muscles over the face – around the eyes, around the mouth, etc. are the muscles where rigor mortis first appears, followed by rigor mortis of the muscles in the hands and upper limbs, and finally appears in the large muscles of the lower limbs. Rigor mortis appears approximately 2 hours after death in the muscles of the face

... and progresses to the limbs over the next few hours, completing between 6 to 8 hours after death.

IF she was killed before midnight, as I thought likely, rigor would have been completed by the time she was seen on various videos which throws a wrench into my theory.

I found only 1 instance searching for mouth. (Pg 35) But, several mentions of her slumped. People don't slump if they are going through rigor. I'm thinking slumping would happen pre-rigor, which starts ~2 hours after death in the face, and completes ~6-8 hours after death according to:

Methods of Estimation of Time Since Death - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Forensic pathologists are essentially required to estimate the time since death (TSD) to assist in death investigation by limiting the investigation period and thus helping narrow down the number of suspects in homicide cases. TSD also provides valuable information in establishing the timeline...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And with all due respect, I'm going with what NIH says on that matter (National Library of Medicine - National Center for Biotechnology Information), over an article on MedicineNet. I'm open to seeing other sources to potentially sway me away from NIH though.

I know nothing about rigor, or whether a slumped body could mean before rigor or out of rigor or where she could have been kept thats consistent with being found in the fetal position, we need more info, these are just guesses.
I only know about the mouth requiring muscles to stay shut because of a family joke, it was our clue to be quiet when our parents would say to us "use your muscles" if we talked too much.

 

[iamshadow21]

Right, which was the point of my post. Rigor hadn't started, which is in the face first, approximately 2 hrs after death. So, now I'm rethinking Maddie being killed before midnight, or she'd have been ~8 hrs into rigor when she was seen on video (mouth ajar and limp body ~ an hour later when moved to the trunk).

From my post that was edited out:

Smaller muscles over the face – around the eyes, around the mouth, etc. are the muscles where rigor mortis first appears, followed by rigor mortis of the muscles in the hands and upper limbs, and finally appears in the large muscles of the lower limbs. Rigor mortis appears approximately 2 hours after death in the muscles of the face

... and progresses to the limbs over the next few hours, completing between 6 to 8 hours after death.

IF she was killed before midnight, as I thought likely, rigor would have been completed by the time she was seen on various videos which throws a wrench into my theory.

I found only 1 instance searching for mouth. (Pg 35) But, several mentions of her slumped. People don't slump if they are going through rigor. I'm thinking slumping would happen pre-rigor, which starts ~2 hours after death in the face, and completes ~6-8 hours after death according to:

Methods of Estimation of Time Since Death - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Forensic pathologists are essentially required to estimate the time since death (TSD) to assist in death investigation by limiting the investigation period and thus helping narrow down the number of suspects in homicide cases. TSD also provides valuable information in establishing the timeline...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And with all due respect, I'm going with what NIH says on that matter (National Library of Medicine - National Center for Biotechnology Information), over an article on MedicineNet. I'm open to seeing other sources to potentially sway me away from NIH though.

By completed, they mean full rigor, the stiffest the body can be, six to eight hours in. Then it takes twelve hours to fully dissipate.

I think she died closer to dawn, rather than before midnight. If she died at, say, between ten and midnight, she would have been in full rigor at six am. Whereas if she died at three or four in the morning, rigor would only be beginning at six am.

We don't know exactly when he put her in the car, but given he put her in a seated position, I assume she wasn't in full rigor at the time.

MOO

 

[Gemmie]

By completed, they mean full rigor, the stiffest the body can be, six to eight hours in. Then it takes twelve hours to fully dissipate.

I think she died closer to dawn, rather than before midnight. If she died at, say, between ten and midnight, she would have been in full rigor at six am. Whereas if she died at three or four in the morning, rigor would only be beginning at six am.

We don't know exactly when he put her in the car, but given he put her in a seated position, I assume she wasn't in full rigor at the time.

MOO

Exactly!!! But now that I know a little about rigor, it's still hard to wrap my head around her being killed shortly before SS threw her things in the trash. I really, really felt like it was between her being sent upstairs with SS, and when he was on Telegram shortly before midnight. But added in the timing of rigor, and the times she was seen slumped, mouth ajar, and limp.... I now think she was killed around 7am-ish as that makes more sense to me.

So, that makes me question if LE is checking timestamps on the CSAM on his phone, to log in times on Telegram over the past X years. If SS knew about Telegram shortly after it launched (2013), then it's possible he was uploading the CSAM for others. And likely for payment. JMO

That's the only way I can make sense of SS being on Telegram at the time he was, if she was still alive. And that really REALLY makes me angry if she was aware of what he was doing with the videos he made of her.

 

[ttjo]

By completed, they mean full rigor, the stiffest the body can be, six to eight hours in. Then it takes twelve hours to fully dissipate.

I think she died closer to dawn, rather than before midnight. If she died at, say, between ten and midnight, she would have been in full rigor at six am. Whereas if she died at three or four in the morning, rigor would only be beginning at six am.

We don't know exactly when he put her in the car, but given he put her in a seated position, I assume she wasn't in full rigor at the time.

MOO

and when it dissipates I dont know what that looks like. I suspect discoloration, decomp, and /or if they could see that on a CCTV video to be able to tell Jenn they believe she was dead before they found her.
If rigor takes about 2 hrs to onset, 8 hours to go through and another 12 to dissipate, It seems more likely she died shortly before 7:39 if she was still limp as witnessed at 9:40
if she was just medicated and asleep. I think her mouth would not have remained open, I bet they have 2 videos ) which is how I believe L/E made the determination that she was already deceased. L/E told jenn they believe she was already deceased before they found her, something told them that. Either they have something on video from SS phone or her mouth remained open. I dont think being "slumped over" is an indicator but mouth open is. IMO

 

[Gemmie]

and when it dissipates I dont know what the looks like. I suspect discoloration, decomp, and /or if they could see that on a CCTV video to be able to tell Jenn they believe she was dead before they found her.
If rigor takes about 2 hrs to onset, 8 hours to go through and another 12 to dissipate, It seems more likely she died shortly before 7:39 if she was still limp as witnessed at 9:40
if she was just medicated and asleep. I think her mouth would not have remained open. which is how I believe L/E made the determination that was already deceased. L/E told jenn they believe she was already deceased before they found her, something told them that. Either they have something on video from SS phone or her mouth remained open. I dont think being "slumped over" is an indicator but mouth open is. IMO

My post stated:

Rigor mortis then stays for another 12 hours (till 24 hours after death) and then disappears.

There was not enough time for it to have come and gone between when she got home from her party, and when she was seen very likely deceased (per LE) ~12 hrs later. So, with my limited understanding of rigor... and the timeline as we know it, that means she was newly deceased, not during when rigor would still be doing its thing. Further, with it starting in the face (mouth, eyes, etc.) ~2 hrs after death.. and she was seen LIMP ~2 hrs after LE suspected she was already deceased... it had to be just before throwing her things out at 7:35am IMO.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

Wondering out loud here…… and I am not a pathologist or the like or trying to be graphic …… but on the mouth having been ajar - might that have also resulted in part from the manner of death? Wasn’t there a report somewhere up thread…… that MS might have been strangled or such? (IIRC that might have been the case but I won’t be able to find a link within here for it.)

And not trying to cast any aspersions on the attempts to determine time of death of MS from rigor - just wondering if maybe there were multiple contributors to her appearance at that point? This poor dear child…. MOO

 

[Gemmie]

Wondering out loud here…… and I am not a pathologist or the like or trying to be graphic …… but on the mouth having been ajar - might that have also resulted in part from the manner of death? Wasn’t there a report somewhere up thread…… that MS might have been strangled or such? (IIRC that might have been the case but I won’t be able to find a link within here for it.)

And not trying to cast any aspersions on the attempts to determine time of death of MS from rigor - just wondering if maybe there were multiple contributors to her appearance at that point? This poor dear child…. MOO

Yes, Shannon Butler has said in videos posted upthread that "her sources" told her that she was strangled. But, "her sources" had told her that her head was bashed prior to that (or something along those lines).

Good point about that potentially being why her mouth was open. But, she wouldn't still be seen as limp when he moved her to the trunk at 9:40 (Pg 36) with how I'm understanding how the timing of rigor works.

 

[ttjo]

Wondering out loud here…… and I am not a pathologist or the like or trying to be graphic …… but on the mouth having been ajar - might that have also resulted in part from the manner of death? Wasn’t there a report somewhere up thread…… that MS might have been strangled or such? (IIRC that might have been the case but I won’t be able to find a link within here for it.)

And not trying to cast any aspersions on the attempts to determine time of death of MS from rigor - just wondering if maybe there were multiple contributors to her appearance at that point? This poor dear child…. MOO

I agree, I am the furthest thing from anyone who can determine TOD. (just thinking out loud too) I only know what I have read ( very recently) and I did read your mouth can be open from trying to breathe? I am sure there are some nurses in here or dr's that can answer that question. My only point was that it didnt sound like the mouth open had anything to do with Rigor, its a natural occurrence and when the muscles stop working it stays open, unless someone closes it within 2+ hours before rigor sets it, then it locks, and the rest, Im not an expert so Ill leave that to the people who know this stuff.
I watched some short video's from a hospice nurse who wrote a NYT bestseller called " nothing to fear" she was very informative.

 

[Gemmie]

My only point was that it didnt sound like the mouth open had anything to do with Rigor

(I'm giggling over here. ) And that was one of my points. lol It doesn't sound like rigor because it was too early after death for it to have begun to set in. Or at least that's how the timeline of rigor works from what I've read, AND by adding in the facts as we know them (she was alive ~12 hrs earlier when she was dropped off, and very likely dead 12 hrs after being dropped off when SS was throwing her stuff away).

Rigor starts ~2 hrs after death (all laid out in my earlier thread, along with a link to NIH), and hasn't completed till ~24 hrs later. There was only 12 hrs between when we know she was alive and when she was dead, so rigor couldn't have come and gone, even if she was killed before midnight. Had she been killed before midnight she's still be stiff from rigor when SS carried her (LIMP) to the truck ~9 hours after midnight (again, IF she was killed just before midnight).