FL FL - Michelle Parker, 33, Orlando, 17 Nov 2011 - #22

[GrammaMaybe]

link is gone

dssr was out fishing the next day

BBM

Vibert, can you give me a source or link for "the next day?" TIA

This is confusing to me. IIRC, a Rose Blvd neighbor said Papa Dale took off 11/18, "the next day," hauling his boat. The neighbor of the dude with the surveillance camera near Lake Ellenor said it was "the day she went missing" paraphrasing here.

Can you help me out?
Thanks

 

[Reality Orlando]

Okay so the lake doesn't sound like a good place to fish or to dispose of a body or other evidence, does anyone know if it's a popular fishing hole in the area? What kind of fishing do you do in a shallow murky lake that you can't really put a decent sized motor boat into? Is this a man made lake or is it stream fed? What kind of fish would you find in this type of small lake? I tried to see if there was anything on google about it as a good fishing spot but there was nothing.

So is this a normal thing for a business owner to do on a Friday in Orlando? I guess he had no work lined up for that day? It's especially odd considering that he was very recently made aware that his grandchildren's mother was missing and those same grandchildren were at his home. Not to mention the fact that his son was being questioned by LE the night before as the last known person to see her. You'd think that he'd want to keep abreast of all the developing news on the matter rather than just take off for a day of fishing. Did he have the children with him I wonder? Was this supposed to be a fun outing for them?

And I guess the other question would be, do we know that he was out actually fishing that day or is it just speculation? :waitasec: The caller on the bucket show seems pretty positive that he was hauling a boat that day.

I do agree that it could have been a ruse. A look over here, not over there type scenario. So where was DSJr during this time? I believe he said he was at work on his facebook as per MSM. BP mentioned on NG that it was Titusville. Did he actually post Titusville on his facebook as the place he was working or was this something that he told the family? Because I believe later information indicated that it was not Titusville where he was working but somewhere else? Do we remember where that was?

MOO

So, Titusville. If you drive over the Veteran's pier in Titusville and continue on past the boat launch area you will enter into miles and miles of wilderness and the Merritt Island Refuge. There many back roads out that way that are used to get to fishing spots. There are also several rather isolated back roads that lead to smaller boat launches than the main ones by the pier and then on the other side at Haulover Canal. We take our boat out here all the time and have explored a lot of these back areas but there are so many back there I'm sure we've not checked out even a small percentage. There's also a loop called the Black Point Wildlife drive. Very picturesque but extremely isolated areas back there as well. So, basically you have a huge loop from near Oak Hill and out near both Mosquito Lagoon and the Indian River that is some of the BEST redfish and trout fishing in the country. A boat could easily get lost in many of those canals or on the back roads.

 

[Reality Orlando]

Lots of self-employed guys I know work on Saturdays so they can have a day off during the week to fish when it's not as busy. The launches can get fairly backed up on weekends but during the week it's much quieter.

 

[GrammaMaybe]

So just using these three cases [Peterson, Powell, Anthony] as an example for now, if this was a non bloody crime, a relatively quick disposal and the body was wrapped, should LE expect to have found any forensics in the home or any vehicle belonging to DSJr? Should a cadaver dog have hit on anything? The only thing I’ve read that I could find about timing for cadaver dogs is that if a recently deceased body, under 3 hours, is laid on a carpet for 20 minutes, the dogs are 98 percent accurate in detecting the scent from the carpet samples. I have been unable to find data about a recently deceased and wrapped body and the result of a cadaver dog hitting on it after only one-two hours, or possibly as little as 30 minutes. Perhaps one of our SAR professionals would be able to answer that one.

While the advancement of DNA and forensics in the past 15 years has been a huge benefit to LE, it has also become a problem. People expect that DNA and other forensics should be at every crime scene. The CSI effect if you will. Truth is, that’s not always the case and in fact since most criminals are aware of what can be found, LE are probably finding less forensics evidence than ever before because of it.

MOO

Respectfully snipped and BBM and all that follows is MOO

This is a great post, thank you.

Enzymes can be used to neutralize the residue that holds the cadaver scent molecules that the dogs register. Much depends on the surface of the holding material. It would not be surprising that cadaver dogs reacted in the Powell case to an empty grave but not inside the house. For one thing, how do you make contact with all the residue in dust without flooding the area? And it doesn't look like anything is there for the murderer to be concerned about.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. Baby Dale & Papa Dale are career criminals, IMHO, and they would know/have all this information.

The safest way to get away with murder is to carefully plan to have an "accident" and cop to it immediately. "I thought he was a rapist and he wouldn't answer when I called out to him and I shot the shadow to protect my virtue," works IF THERE IS NO HISTORY OF DISCORD. Obviously unavailable to a cowardly bully and previously-convicted abuser/killer like Baby Dale.

Next best is the "missing person." If you'll notice even for the circumstantial trials there were eye-witnesses (which is direct evidence) and/or enough physical evidence to show that grave bodily harm had occurred.

 

[missingm]

***** SPOILER ALERT ***** I'm convinced Little Dale is guilty and considering whether Big Dale is an accomplice.

Before 11/17

LittleDale purchases equipment to protect surfaces, secure Michelle, clean up any mess
LDale plans exactly how and where to subdue Michelle
LDale purchases & installs hook&eye on TV room door
LDale picks up container for Michelle and takes it to BDale's house

11/17

? If BDale was at condo at 3:18, LDale picks him up at Rose Blvd in time to be at condo by 3.
LDale moves his truck to street in front of condo.
LDale moves his work truck onto street
Garage door is open

3:18 Michelle arrives at condo driving Hummer with Glow stickers. (neighbor video)


LDale convinces Michelle to drive into the garage and closes the garage door (3min)
LDale & Michelle release kids from car seats, plop them in front of TV, hooks door (10 min)
LDale asks Michelle to take a look at this "paperwork" & heavy book on table (5min)
LDale comes up behind Michelle and subdues her (4min)
While Michelle is unconscious, LDale restrains her (10min)
LDale moves restrained Michelle into the Hummer (5min)
LDale removes Glow sticker (10min [per sticker company])

NOTE: There was speculation that BigDale was at the condo when Michelle arrived. Babysitter?

4:20 LDale puts kids in his truck and leaves to go to Rose Blvd (Big Dale's house)

4:26 LDale pulls over on Hoffner to answer text sent to Michelle by her brother

4:40 LDale arrives at Big Dale's house
LDale unbuckles twins, gives them to his mom, waves to neighbor, borrows Big Dale's shovel
LDale has snack?

5:00 LDale & BDale leave Rose Blvd in BDale's truck with container.

5:31 SUNSET
5:32 LDale and BDale arrive at condo
LDale and BDale move Michelle to truck
BDale supervises clean up of condo, hook&eye removal, helps with narrative practice

6:00 DARK BDale takes Michelle to Mission St. & leaves her there along with container
LDale takes Hummer to Walden Palms
LDale waits for BDale to pick him up
BDale & LDale arrive at BDale's house by 8:00 when Dale gets message from YS


8:00 LDale leaves Daddy's and takes Belle Isle route to his condo
LDale turns off iPhone & tosses it off Nela St. Bridge at 8:08 pm


8:30 LDale meets LE at Carter Glen condo




11/18
BDale takes his boat out and goes fishing (Buckethead).
Before launching, he stops by Mission St for pick up
On his way to work, Dale exits toll road at 520 to make drop off (trucker).

BBM. Can someone please explain the logic behind Dale somehow convincing Michelle to park inside his garage? The front door to his condo is easily reachable from the side after she had passed the garage. Dale would have had to run out into the street before she took the corner and directed her into his garage. Somehow I believe that you would have seen some indication of this on the neighbor's video.

Under any circumstance I can't think of a reason why Michelle would have driven into Dale's garage voluntarily. I think it would be suspicious if my mom asked me to park in her garage when dropping something off, much less an ex-girlfriend or ex-fiance with a violent past.

IMO, if Dale's father is involved, I don't see why you would even bother to drive it into the garage (which would be incriminating if anyone saw it). In that case, Dale Sr would just get into he hummer and drive off, taking care of the decals later on. Meanwhile Dale Jr. would take Michelle's body into his truck (which would already be in the garage) and dump it. Don't know why you would risk anyone seeing the hummer going into the garage or see them carrying anything large out to it.

Likewise, why would they take 10 minutes to restrain her when it is pretty clear they intend to kill her? It would probably only take a few extra minutes to kill her.


BTW, Gramma, not specifically directed at you. I have seen this mentioned by a number of people.

 

[Spice]

Next best is the "missing person." If you'll notice even for the circumstantial trials there were eye-witnesses (which is direct evidence) and/or enough physical evidence to show that grave bodily harm had occurred.

I'm not a big fan of the eye-witness though Gramma. As I'm sure that you well know, the Research shows that they are notoriously unreliable and make mistakes/confuse details more often than not. I personally would not any used against me in my fair trial. (Especially if I was innocent)

I'm not sure how they are going to catch up with Dale. I don't see him as the brightest bulb in the world so I know that they will. He left evidence somewhere and it is probably with Michelle.

I'm also not positive that this was premeditated. I just don't see it yet. I think he had been simmering about her new boyfriend as she was about to introduce him to her family, and I think he had watched the People's court episode and snapped. He knew she was done with him and there wasn't going to be anymore breaking up and making up. He knew she was moving on and another man would be in his kids lives, and he had just seen what a jacka** he made out of himself on national television. He may have done this alone, it's not impossible, or he may have called Daddy for help, but I really don't think that he planned it.

I never did like how SR said "Go find her"to the reporter. It was flippant, inappropriate, and arrogant, almost like a dare, like he knew they couldn't. That was his tone. Why?

 

[Jazzmaster]

Happy Birthday Dale! Hope you have a fun filled day as it will most likely be your last birthday as a free man. Enjoy your free time for now...the clues are catching up with you...you will go down and we will find Michelle and hold you responsible. Just because you have been a COWARD your whole life doesn't mean you can't finally "man up"! Think of someone other than yourself for once and lead us to Michelle. All JMO

 

[Jazzmaster]

BBM. Can someone please explain the logic behind Dale somehow convincing Michelle to park inside his garage? The front door to his condo is easily reachable from the side after she had passed the garage. Dale would have had to run out into the street before she took the corner and directed her into his garage. Somehow I believe that you would have seen some indication of this on the neighbor's video.

Under any circumstance I can't think of a reason why Michelle would have driven into Dale's garage voluntarily. I think it would be suspicious if my mom asked me to park in her garage when dropping something off, much less an ex-girlfriend or ex-fiance with a violent past.

IMO, if Dale's father is involved, I don't see why you would even bother to drive it into the garage (which would be incriminating if anyone saw it). In that case, Dale Sr would just get into he hummer and drive off, taking care of the decals later on. Meanwhile Dale Jr. would take Michelle's body into his truck (which would already be in the garage) and dump it. Don't know why you would risk anyone seeing the hummer going into the garage or see them carrying anything large out to it.

Likewise, why would they take 10 minutes to restrain her when it is pretty clear they intend to kill her? It would probably only take a few extra minutes to kill her.


BTW, Gramma, not specifically directed at you. I have seen this mentioned by a number of people.

I agree Dale did not need to have Michelle drive the vehicle into the garage. It would have helped but was not necessary. Dale needed a total of 10 mins to incapacitate Michelle AND hide her vehicle. I finally was able to drive through Dale's neighborhood...as long as the vehicle was taken care of (hidden or driven away) by Dale or an accomplice in a short period of time no one in that complex would have noticed Michelle's vehicle IMO.

 

[Cblewife]

It is very significant as it was part of a decoy plot IMO...smoke and mirrors! MOO Sr knew the focus would be on the smiths and to be coy and waste LE resources he purposefully took the boat out that day. JMO

Possibly smoke and mirrors or simply one of the biggest mistakes THEY made to date. I can almost hear the strategy of just going to work and fishing in order to paint a picture of no concerns. IMO big, BIG mistake and it probably centered the spot light that was shining on him/them the moment they knew she was missing.

 

[PJFL]

I'm still waiting for MN, DSJr's defence attorney, to tell us the results of his independent investigation that he stated he would be doing months ago.
MOO

Respectfully snipped by me although I could read it over and over again. You absolutely rock, Kamille. :bow:

It's now gone, but on MN's Facebook wall someone asked him about it and he responded. Since I cann't provide a link (it's broken), and his post is gone, can I copy and paste it here?

There wasn't much to it really. A bit of lawyerese, IMO.

 

[Jazzmaster]

Respectfully snipped by me although I could read it over and over again. You absolutely rock, Kamille. :bow:

It's now gone, but on MN's Facebook wall someone asked him about it and he responded. Since I cann't provide a link (it's broken), and his post is gone, can I copy and paste it here?

There wasn't much to it really. A bit of lawyerese, IMO.

I can probably paraphrase it for you, "after conducting our own independent investigation even the defense team now believes Dale did it" JK...

 

[GrammaMaybe]

BBM. Can someone please explain the logic behind Dale somehow convincing Michelle to park inside his garage? The front door to his condo is easily reachable from the side after she had passed the garage. Dale would have had to run out into the street before she took the corner and directed her into his garage. Somehow I believe that you would have seen some indication of this on the neighbor's video.

Under any circumstance I can't think of a reason why Michelle would have driven into Dale's garage voluntarily. I think it would be suspicious if my mom asked me to park in her garage when dropping something off, much less an ex-girlfriend or ex-fiance with a violent past.

IMO, if Dale's father is involved, I don't see why you would even bother to drive it into the garage (which would be incriminating if anyone saw it). In that case, Dale Sr would just get into he hummer and drive off, taking care of the decals later on. Meanwhile Dale Jr. would take Michelle's body into his truck (which would already be in the garage) and dump it. Don't know why you would risk anyone seeing the hummer going into the garage or see them carrying anything large out to it.

Likewise, why would they take 10 minutes to restrain her when it is pretty clear they intend to kill her? It would probably only take a few extra minutes to kill her.


BTW, Gramma, not specifically directed at you. I have seen this mentioned by a number of people.

BBM MOO MOO MOO

*** SPOILER ALERT *** I'm convinced Baby Dale is guilty & guessing that Papa Dale is too. I'm thinking Mama Dale might be an abused wife and terrified into silence.

Thank you for this post missingm. By all of us stretching our neurons, we are shifting our perceptions of the data and getting a fresh look, just like the START committee.

1. INTO THE GARAGE?
The "come into my driveway, Little Girl" said the Big Bad Wolf, seems to run in families. "Everyone pull right in" vs "That's as rude as looking in my medicine chest." My own family is bi-policy and this has lead to everything to uncomfortable holiday dinners to years of estrangement. Perhaps one the locals that knows the family could ask them about this. Hint, hint Sparky?

I have noticed that in tax photos, Google maps, etc., the big white truck/van has most often in the right hand side of the driveway. On the video that shall not be named and was recanted, a white truck appeared on the street AFTER Michelle's Hummer drove up at 3:18. Perhaps Michelle did park on the street, around the corner, closest to the front door. Perhaps after she took the children inside, Baby Dale or Papa Dale subdued her, moved the white van and put the Hummer in the garage. If Papa Dale was there, it would be easy for him to distract the kids while Baby Dale grabbed her from behind.

On the 18th, Baby Dale was standing outside his garage while the police were searching the condo; the garage door was open and there were two vehicles in the garage. Looking in, IIRC, looking in, on the right a larger darker truck, on the left a reddish smaller one. Could bigger darker truck on the right be Papa Dale's?

Since most people don't think the white van was Baby Dale's work van, I'm wondering if he could have considered the cadaver dogs and requested a special truck for that week/day just to further confuse the issue.

2. GLOW STICKER
I'm with Yvonne on this one. That sticker sticks out like it's supposed to. It would seem less likely for six to a dozen neighbors who might be home to notice the Hummer going into the garage than hundreds of drivers on the streets. Statistically, moving the Hummer into the garage would be less likely to be spotted.

3. SUBDUE vs QUICK DEATH
Although Baby Dale bragged and demonstrated with Star Wars friends how he could easily murder someone in moments, Papa Dale may have insisted that they keep Michelle alive until they reached the deposit area. First, Baby Dale hated her and might have wanted her to suffer. Secondly, one of the Dales probably knows of the cadaver dogs studies and would want to avoid an alert in the condo.

BTW the cadaver dog stats of correct alerts were done in research situations. In vivo, things are always tougher.

 

[GrammaMaybe]

I agree Dale did not need to have Michelle drive the vehicle into the garage. It would have helped but was not necessary. Dale needed a total of 10 mins to incapacitate Michelle AND hide her vehicle. I finally was able to drive through Dale's neighborhood...as long as the vehicle was taken care of (hidden or driven away) by Dale or an accomplice in a short period of time no one in that complex would have noticed Michelle's vehicle IMO.

Jazz, would it have been smarter for the Hummer to leave the condo dressed in stickers? Then the stranger abduction would have been pursued more strenuously and LE might have missed more evidence.

Was it ever determined if Baby Dale was on the HOA board? If so he would know which units were empty and might have even had access to keys.

IMHO, he wanted the Hummer found ASAP so he could get it back ASAP.

 

[katydid23]

I wonder if Dale ever did any maintenence on the Hummer. My ex bf used to be pretty good with cars, and even after we broke up he would offer to do little things on my old car because he helped me buy it and he liked to make himself useful.

So I wondered if he might have offered, since it was in his name, to check something on the Hummer, and suggested she pull into the garage, because most HOA's frown on residents doing mechanical work in their driveways.
He could have said ' the motor is sounding rough, let me check the timing,' or maybe, ' I ordered a new belt for the distributor, pull it in and I will replace it really quickly for you. '

 

[GrammaMaybe]

So, Titusville. If you drive over the Veteran's pier in Titusville and continue on past the boat launch area you will enter into miles and miles of wilderness and the Merritt Island Refuge. There many back roads out that way that are used to get to fishing spots. There are also several rather isolated back roads that lead to smaller boat launches than the main ones by the pier and then on the other side at Haulover Canal. We take our boat out here all the time and have explored a lot of these back areas but there are so many back there I'm sure we've not checked out even a small percentage. There's also a loop called the Black Point Wildlife drive. Very picturesque but extremely isolated areas back there as well. So, basically you have a huge loop from near Oak Hill and out near both Mosquito Lagoon and the Indian River that is some of the BEST redfish and trout fishing in the country. A boat could easily get lost in many of those canals or on the back roads.

Actually the job was in Palm Bay. Lauren & Yvonne were going to search near Baby Dale's job site, but couldn't because they didn't have a subpoena. So they sent up a search center in Lowes Parking Lot. LE got search warrants and went to the site soon after; they reported no new evidence.

 

[GrammaMaybe]

I'm not a big fan of the eye-witness though Gramma. As I'm sure that you well know, the Research shows that they are notoriously unreliable and make mistakes/confuse details more often than not. I personally would not any used against me in my fair trial. (Especially if I was innocent)

I'm not sure how they are going to catch up with Dale. I don't see him as the brightest bulb in the world so I know that they will. He left evidence somewhere and it is probably with Michelle.

I'm also not positive that this was premeditated. I just don't see it yet. I think he had been simmering about her new boyfriend as she was about to introduce him to her family, and I think he had watched the People's court episode and snapped. He knew she was done with him and there wasn't going to be anymore breaking up and making up. He knew she was moving on and another man would be in his kids lives, and he had just seen what a jacka** he made out of himself on national television. He may have done this alone, it's not impossible, or he may have called Daddy for help, but I really don't think that he planned it.

I never did like how SR said "Go find her"to the reporter. It was flippant, inappropriate, and arrogant, almost like a dare, like he knew they couldn't. That was his tone. Why?

BBM MOO MOO

In California, at the time my friend was murdered (in the 80's), during the closing statements, the DA made the point that a paw print in the cement was "circumstantial" but eye-witness testimony was "direct" evidence. The law may certainly have been changed by now.

I'm with you 100%, I certainly wouldn't want to be convicted by eye-witness testimony. It is notoriously error prone. Some new techniques make it much less iffy. I'm not trying to be an eye-witness; I'm on the other side of the country. I'm trying to provoke everyone to look at all the information in new ways and maybe shake something loose.

The "Why?" is in my mind MOO MOO because Papa Dale decided to hide Michelle because he didn't see Baby Dale capable of doing it right, and he was proud of his "good job."

 

[GrammaMaybe]

Ok I think you might notice that anyone that ever tried here to say anything different other then Dale is guilty is all but gone, that includes me as swell, .... ok then Dale is guilty, the naysayers as you put it before are now defeated, got it. So now that we agree that Dale is guilty, then where did he hide the body? Where is Michelle Parker? Because you see, Dale or no Dale the real problem is finding this poor woman who's missing.

In my opinion, if Baby Dale acted alone, Michelle is within 15 minutes of a direct route between his condo and Papa Dale's Rose Blvd residence.
In my opinion, If Papa Dale is directly involved she is within 1-2 hours of the same direct route.
In my opinion, if Momma Dale is also involved Michelle could be anywhere.

Where do you think she is? If you still think it's a stranger abduction why not consider 2 factors and come up with lists for both?

I. Just killed her quick and dumped her off ASAP to have use of the Hummer:
How soon?
How far?
Probably on the surface, correct?

2. Kept her around for awhile to torture her:
How long?
How far?
Elaborately concealed or just dumped out of the car?

 

[vibert]

BBM

Vibert, can you give me a source or link for "the next day?" TIA

This is confusing to me. IIRC, a Rose Blvd neighbor said Papa Dale took off 11/18, "the next day," hauling his boat. The neighbor of the dude with the surveillance camera near Lake Ellenor said it was "the day she went missing" paraphrasing here.

Can you help me out?
Thanks

No, because I don't keep links and info, but I saw it reported pretty early on. I'm thinking maybe when they started searching the lake, but may have been even earlier. It was on a video from one of the local orlando stations like wesh or something similar.

 

[GrammaMaybe]

No, because I don't keep links and info, but I saw it reported pretty early on. I'm thinking maybe when they started searching the lake, but may have been even earlier. It was on a video from one of the local orlando stations like wesh or something similar.

That's my earliest memory, also. I was surprised when reviewing the Buckethead Show to hear that the sister of the friend of the person who had the surveillance video said it was the 17th.

Thanks for responding.

 

[SheWhoMustNotBeNamed]

Michelle was added to Charley Project today - http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/p/parker_michelle.html