FL FL - Michelle Parker, 33, Orlando, 17 Nov 2011 - #23

[Tennlyn]

IMO If LE had ping records of Michelle's iPhone in DSS's kitchen or anywhere else within Dale's personal locations, sometime after he says she dropped off the kids and went on her way, DS would have been arrested. If the phone was turned off whenever and by whomever then a pinging location for that duration is a mute point in pinpointing a particular perp.

Moreover, where a ping may determine a particular location, a series of pings over a a period of time may indicate a trajectory, hence movement from a geographical location toward another, therefore based solely on the fact that DS is the only suspect LE has managed to find to this date, and on the assumption that it's very unlikely for DS to be following MP or transporting her body while at the same time taking the kids to his parents, I would venture to guess that no ping records exist outside of the ones we already know about that would implicate DS and/or any members of his family in her disappearance.

I totally disagree. LE and the Prosecuting Attorney offices are very reluctant to make an arrest without a body or a very gruesome crime scene. You don't make the arrest until you know you can PROVE the case beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury. MOO

However, that info would be enough to name someone Prime Suspect. Oh look! They did that! jmo

 

[Sparky]

Sparky, I wasn't aware of this particular incident but where Dale is concerned I'm not surprised, at least as he was in his younger years perhaps, ... was that statement made to the police? Where there any charges filed? Was there a police report?

Thor, I'm gonna post the link for you. There are 39 pages. From the time he and others crashed a party and one of the attendees was murdered, from him beating Shannon while he was drunk, to where Shannon supposedly OD'd at his friends house while he was in prison.

I think the documents will answer your questions. I'm surprised you haven't seen them. I'd like to hear what your thoughts are after you read them. TIA

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...ssing-dale-smith-shannon-smith_n_1126349.html

 

[Thor]

I totally disagree. LE and the Prosecuting Attorney offices are very reluctant to make an arrest without a body or a very gruesome crime scene. You don't make the arrest until you know you can PROVE the case beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury. MOO

However, that info would be enough to name someone Prime Suspect. Oh look! They did that! jmo

I'm not sure what that has to do with the iPhone pinging? Are you saying that if there was a pinging of the iPhone in Dale's condo or his parents' house after she allegedly dropped off the twins he would have not been arrested? How would he explain Michelle's iPhone in his condo or parents' house? I'm not sure here ... may be you're are talking about some other evidence?

According to a NeJame's statement "... They've checked out his phone records, his friends and everything imaginable and they have found zero, and let me emphasize zero ..." and I tend to believe him considering everything, however one would need a confirmation of this from independent sources and on the record, preferably from LE and as far as I know that is not the case, so ... who knows? And I say this with a good degree of frustration which I believe echoes many similar feelings around here.

 

[Thor]

Thor, I'm gonna post the link for you. There are 39 pages. From the time he and others crashed a party and one of the attendees was murdered, from him beating Shannon while he was drunk, to where Shannon supposedly OD'd at his friends house while he was in prison.

I think the documents will answer your questions. I'm surprised you haven't seen them. I'd like to hear what your thoughts are after you read them. TIA

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...ssing-dale-smith-shannon-smith_n_1126349.html

Thank you Sparky, much appreciated. I'll read it and let you know what I think.

 

[artzypantz]

This is OT, but i found it very interesting and wanted to share. Maybe the success rate comes soley from the handler of the cadaver dogs.

Artzy

http://www.wlky.com/news/local-news/...p/-/index.html

Police say dogs have unearthed a human skull and jawbone in a northeast Ohio neighborhood, and the search is on for other human remains.

Youngstown police Lt. Douglas Bobovnyik said investigators believe the jawbone and skull found last month are part of the same skeleton, but they have not been able to confirm it.

The (Youngstown) Vindicator reports that since the initial discoveries were made by neighborhood dogs, investigators are considering attaching GPS devices and using the dogs to locate the other remains.

Police cadaver dogs trained in searching for decomposing human flesh have been brought in, but they had no success.

Read more: http://www.wlky.com/news/local-news/...#ixzz2NpTWfWLp

 

[Sparky]

RE: Grandparents Rights

From Michelle Parker Missing FB

Across the board a unanimous vote from each committee member all YES'S!!!!!

This is our first step and starting off with the best we could have done! Now we move on to a Judiciary committee to hopefully revive the same vote if YES then off to the Senate to become a law!! We are changing history all for LOVE

https://www.facebook.com/michelleparkermissingperson

 

[gitana1]

https://www.facebook.com/michelleparkermissingperson

Via Michelles Mother Yvonne Stewart:

Tallahassee here we come! Michelle Parker Law is going to Committee One. THE most important first Step. Monday at 2pm. Grandparent Rights. Everyone is invited because the more support speakers the better. We each get 3 minutes to speak. Invitation to you all. message me....God Bless you and thank you Jesus. Prayers are working....

Since apparently dale moved to Tennessee, how will Florida have jurisdiction over the kids, if you know? Is it via Michelle's old custody case with grandma as the intervener? TIA!!!

 

[Sparky]

Since apparently dale moved to Tennessee, how will Florida have jurisdiction over the kids, if you know? Is it via Michelle's old custody case with grandma as the intervener? TIA!!!

Sorry I don't know.

Here's the bill. HB 19

General Bill by Rouson (CO-SPONSORS) Broxson; Campbell; Edwards; Gaetz; Stewart; Tobia; Williams, A.
Grandparent Visitation Rights: Authorizes grandparent of minor child to petition court for visitation under certain circumstances; authorizes appointment of guardian ad litem & mediation following prima facie showing of harm; authorizes grandparental visitation if court makes specified findings; requires clear & convincing evidence of demonstrable significant mental or emotional harm to minor resulting from denial of visitation; provides visitation rights for great-grandparents.

Effective Date: July 1, 2013
Last Event: Favorable with CS by Civil Justice Subcommittee on Monday, March 18, 2013 5:25 PM


http://myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Bills/billsdetail.aspx?BillId=49203

 

[southern_comfort]

Since apparently dale moved to Tennessee, how will Florida have jurisdiction over the kids, if you know? Is it via Michelle's old custody case with grandma as the intervener? TIA!!!

I had the same thought. I think for them to take advantage of any new law in Florida, they'd have to find a way to pursue it via an existing case.

 

[Thor]

I had the same thought. I think for them to take advantage of any new law in Florida, they'd have to find a way to pursue it via an existing case.

As far as I know the Parkers never actually sued DS for custody of the twins, I think that placing the kids in DS's custody was a determination made by a family court judge adhering to the common and legally established chain of custody from one parent to another which preempted a previous order by the Florida children welfare agency placing the twins in the grandparents custody, that being the case I'm not sure which state would have prevailing legal jurisdiction here.

But even assuming that such a law is passed in Florida and that legal jurisdiction could be established there, it would be a tough sell to force DS to relocate back to Florida where he could not find a job, from Tennessee where he apparently has one ... even a non-custodial parent would have a serious legal fight to contend with if the custodial parent can prove the he/she needs to relocate for compelling reasons, I'm assuming that grandparents, all things being equal, would have a significant less standing in a situation such as this then a parent, notwithstanding a particular statue.

Also, I've read, (not in depth) that grandparents statues are of dubious constitutionality and courts already have put some limitations to them ... when I get in the right frame of mind and time permitting, I will look into it more closely to learn more.

Lastly, relying on courts to adjudicate family disputes although necessary at times, it's hardly a substitute to establishing mature and responsible cooperation between the parties especially when children are the issue. It's generally a monumental failure on all sides to do what's right for said children who are always caught up in these often preventable disputes, and it's generally not believable when one justifies it all by blaming the other party. More and more we live in a highly litigious society where people rely with an alarming frequency to courts and shouting to settle disputes, and more and more we loose the ability to relate to one another with kindness, understanding and empathy, not to mention diminishing the practical skills necessary to reach compromises. In an age of shock Media, we look for controversies and struggles and we shout in anger and sometimes even hate, while loosing a bit of humanity in the process and none of it ought to be surprising to anyone..

All JMO

 

[Tennlyn]

IMO If LE had ping records of Michelle's iPhone in DSS's kitchen or anywhere else within Dale's personal locations, sometime after he says she dropped off the kids and went on her way, DS would have been arrested. If the phone was turned off whenever and by whomever then a pinging location for that duration is a mute point in pinpointing a particular perp.

Moreover, where a ping may determine a particular location, a series of pings over a a period of time may indicate a trajectory, hence movement from a geographical location toward another, therefore based solely on the fact that DS is the only suspect LE has managed to find to this date, and on the assumption that it's very unlikely for DS to be following MP or transporting her body while at the same time taking the kids to his parents, I would venture to guess that no ping records exist outside of the ones we already know about that would implicate DS and/or any members of his family in her disappearance.

I totally disagree. LE and the Prosecuting Attorney offices are very reluctant to make an arrest without a body or a very gruesome crime scene. You don't make the arrest until you know you can PROVE the case beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury. MOO

However, that info would be enough to name someone Prime Suspect. Oh look! They did that! jmo

I'm not sure what that has to do with the iPhone pinging? Are you saying that if there was a pinging of the iPhone in Dale's condo or his parents' house after she allegedly dropped off the twins he would have not been arrested? How would he explain Michelle's iPhone in his condo or parents' house? I'm not sure here ... may be you're are talking about some other evidence?

According to a NeJame's statement "... They've checked out his phone records, his friends and everything imaginable and they have found zero, and let me emphasize zero ..." and I tend to believe him considering everything, however one would need a confirmation of this from independent sources and on the record, preferably from LE and as far as I know that is not the case, so ... who knows? And I say this with a good degree of frustration which I believe echoes many similar feelings around here.

Let me go back to your original quote. You said if the police had ping records, they'd have arrested Dale. Just what would they have arrested him for?!

 

[Thor]

Let me go back to your original quote. You said if the police had ping records, they'd have arrested Dale. Just what would they have arrested him for?!

They would have arrested DS if they had ping records indicating the Michelle's iPhone was with Dale or within Dale's location ... that is after he supposedly gave statements to the police that she just dropped off the kids and left ... Before or after the last Waterford text from her iPhone at 4:26pm ... How would he explain that? .... Please note that we are speaking using the conditional tense here, I think that I was originally theorizing on the cell pinging in relation to a definite location that could prove a possible involvement of DS in the disappearance ... nothing more then that. I have no idea what the police have or not have in terms of evidence, as I said I tend to believe NeJame when he said on more then one occasion that they have 0 evidence against his client , but I don't consider my gut feeling as evidence of anything, I'm still waiting on actual undisputed evidence before I even attempt to come to a conclusion.

 

[reedus23]

I'm not a lawyer, but probably you were referring also to my post on the 5th Amendment I wrote several posts above this one.

In there I asserted that in Civil cases: "... defendants don't have a general right against self incrimination ..."

Now, The 5th Amendment can be asserted in any proceeding ...

Kastigar v. United States, 406 U.S. 441, 445 (1972),

however,

civil cases are not the same as criminal cases, and the 5th Amendment may be applied differently between the two.

Specifically, in a criminal case a defendant right to remain silent is broad and general and can be easily ascertained, (ie: one is a defendant in a criminal trial) in a civil trial not necessarily so since there is no prosecutor present or actively involved ...

Marchetti v. United States , 390 U.S. 39, 453, 88 S. Ct.. 697, 705, 19 L. Ed. 2d 889 (1968)

The 5th Amendment applies in instances where the witness has reasonable cause to fear a criminal liability ...

so ... whether the witness has a realistic basis for such a fear is the big question ...

Hoffman v. United States, 341 U.S. 479, 486, (1951), quoted in U.S. v. Argomaniz, 925 F. 2d 1349 (11th Cir. 1991)

Lastly, constitutional law applies to all states in the Union, it's the supreme law of the land and preempts any state law in conflict with it.

Of course as with everything legal, one can go much deeper then that ... I personally don't have the inclination in this istance :aktion1:, surely a real lawyer can explain it better and correct me if I was wrong.

On the issue of luck of details in the initial filing of the lawsuit which you have also brought up, I think that is the preliminary stage pending an actual court hearing where the plaintiff will submit the evidence to the presiding judge who in turn, having reviewed all evidence and briefs and heard all arguments and motions by the opposing counselors will then make a ruling to either dismiss the lawsuit or allow it to proceed to trial as a whole or in part.

Again, an actual lawyer here may explain it better and correct me if I'm wrong.

No, you pretty much laid it out really well. To maybe simplify things, if Florida law is the same as Missouri law, a person can assert the 5th amendment in any kind of proceeding at any time. Period. The differences come in the affect asserting it has based on the context. In a criminal case, asserting that right cannot be used against a person. In certain situations, asserting it in a civil case can be used against them. In other words, you can't force them to talk/answer but if they refuse to and assert their rights, the lawyer can argue they must have asserted the rights because the answer would have gone against their interests.

Regarding the lawsuit itself, and again using Missouri as the backdrop because I don't know Florida law, that pleading wouldn't hold up. Typically, the Judge will instruct the lawyer to simply provide more information in it or else it will be dismissed. Typically, on a motion to dismiss like that, there is no evidence or facts presented. The question typically is, just looking at the four corners of that document, is there enough information contained in it for the defendant to know what they are defending. I haven't gone back an looked, but I don't even think, just by reading the document and nothing else, you could tell if it was a car accident, a fight or what. Worst case scenario though is the Judge simply instructs them to plead it with more specificity. Again, that's just kind of how things are in Missouri and was curious if it was the same in Florida. Thanks for you insight.

 

[Sparky]

WARNING VERY EMOTIONAL.

Grandparents Bill presented here at 29:20.

http://myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Committees/committeesdetail.aspx?CommitteeId=2719&sessionId=73

 

[Thor]

No, you pretty much laid it out really well. To maybe simplify things, if Florida law is the same as Missouri law, a person can assert the 5th amendment in any kind of proceeding at any time. Period. The differences come in the affect asserting it has based on the context. In a criminal case, asserting that right cannot be used against a person. In certain situations, asserting it in a civil case can be used against them. In other words, you can't force them to talk/answer but if they refuse to and assert their rights, the lawyer can argue they must have asserted the rights because the answer would have gone against their interests.

Regarding the lawsuit itself, and again using Missouri as the backdrop because I don't know Florida law, that pleading wouldn't hold up. Typically, the Judge will instruct the lawyer to simply provide more information in it or else it will be dismissed. Typically, on a motion to dismiss like that, there is no evidence or facts presented. The question typically is, just looking at the four corners of that document, is there enough information contained in it for the defendant to know what they are defending. I haven't gone back an looked, but I don't even think, just by reading the document and nothing else, you could tell if it was a car accident, a fight or what. Worst case scenario though is the Judge simply instructs them to plead it with more specificity. Again, that's just kind of how things are in Missouri and was curious if it was the same in Florida. Thanks for you insight.

I wouldn't know about Florida myself because I'm not a resident there, but I was also struck by the lack of specificity in the filing ... I guess an argument could be made and has been made by John Morgan that he doesn't want to tip off Mark Nejame on the evidence prior to the court hearing or anytime before it's absolutely necessary (I'm paraphrasing), and there's merit to it perhaps, in any case it seems to me that we are witnessing some time honored legal maneuvering here with the intent to acquire some specific legal positioning from which to wage battle, both in and out of court, until such a time that a judge puts an end to it and makes a final ruling on the actual merits of the lawsuit.

Lastly, I remain skeptical of it all, it seemed very likely to me pretty early on that the police had absolutely no direct evidence at all against DS, and nothing of consequence in terms of circumstantial ones, but that was more of an assumption on my part then anything else ... it'd be interesting if we can at list have a sense of something factual here, with particular interest in anything making a direct connection between the disappearance of Michelle and the suspect, which has been a source of constant frustration for me, but then again I remain very skeptical ... we'll find out soon enough ... I hope ... ALL JMO

 

[Jazzmaster]

Thank you Sparky, much appreciated. I'll read it and let you know what I think.

Thor what are your thoughts? I know Dale has a VERY shady past so it certainly shows he is capable of torturing and killing women. He definitely has no respect for women... JMO

 

[Jazzmaster]

I wouldn't know about Florida myself because I'm not a resident there, but I was also struck by the lack of specificity in the filing ... I guess an argument could be made and has been made by John Morgan that he doesn't want to tip off Mark Nejame on the evidence prior to the court hearing or anytime before it's absolutely necessary (I'm paraphrasing), and there's merit to it perhaps, in any case it seems to me that we are witnessing some time honored legal maneuvering here with the intent to acquire some specific legal positioning from which to wage battle, both in and out of court, until such a time that a judge puts an end to it and makes a final ruling on the actual merits of the lawsuit.

Lastly, I remain skeptical of it all, it seemed very likely to me pretty early on that the police had absolutely no direct evidence at all against DS, and nothing of consequence in terms of circumstantial ones, but that was more of an assumption on my part then anything else ... it'd be interesting if we can at list have a sense of something factual here, with particular interest in anything making a direct connection between the disappearance of Michelle and the suspect, which has been a source of constant frustration for me, but then again I remain very skeptical ... we'll find out soon enough ... I hope ... ALL JMO

I would have to strongly DISAGREE with you here. LE typically will NOT name a person a PRIME suspect unless they have SOME kind of evidence to support this status. There are numerous cases on the books where evidence exists yet no arrest has been made without a body. Just because Dale's fancy lawyer MN says there is ZERO evidence doesn't mean it is true... The DA is not required to provide all of the required evidence to a defending attorney until a trial is set and in motion. How can the attorney know there is no evidence. what a crock! Anything said by MN is premature and IMO total "spin"... Why is Dale hiding in TN? What a coward... Why won't he face the music? His day in court will be here soon enough. Praying he slips up somewhere and let's someone know where he hid Michelle... all JMO

 

[Jazzmaster]

WARNING VERY EMOTIONAL.

Grandparents Bill presented here at 29:20.

http://myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Committees/committeesdetail.aspx?CommitteeId=2719&sessionId=73

Thank you so much for sharing this. IMO You can see the pain and suffering caused by Dale Smith in this video. Despite his promises to allow "liberal" visitation of the twinners to the grandparents Dale has allowed them to visit just a few times over the past 16 months....THIS shows the true character of Dale and how selfish he is....he is not acting in the best interest of those children. He ripped those kids' entire lives apart by first killing their mother, then denying visitation to their entire support system, and finally by subjecting those poor innocent children to the corrupt and dysfunctional Smith clan who are a bunch of crooks, cheats, drug dealing liars. What kind of person does this? One Dale Smith....the prime suspect of course! All JMO. I pray for Michelle to be found and that Dale be punished for his crimes! NGU!!!

 

[Thor]

Thor what are your thoughts? I know Dale has a VERY shady past so it certainly shows he is capable of torturing and killing women. He definitely has no respect for women... JMO

Hi Jazz, long time no see, I feel that it's polite to answer a question and I don't want to leave you with the impression that I'm ignoring you, but while I respect everybody's right to express themselves as they choose and to hold whatever opinion they have I simply can't participate in this particular kind of dialogue. This is not meant to provide a guideline on dialogue for everybody to follow since it's not my place to do so, it's also neither good nor bad, neither right nor wrong, it's just my choice about under what circumstances I'd choose to exchange opinions, so please take no offense and none are intended. Be well.

 

[Jazzmaster]

Hi Jazz, long time no see, I feel that it's polite to answer a question and I don't want to leave you with the impression that I'm ignoring you, but while I respect everybody's right to express themselves as they choose and to hold whatever opinion they have I simply can't participate in this particular kind of dialogue. This is not meant to provide a guideline on dialogue for everybody to follow since it's not my place to do so, it's also neither good nor bad, neither right nor wrong, it's just my choice about under what circumstances I'd choose to exchange opinions, so please take no offense and none are intended. Be well.

Thanks. I appreciate the honesty....Next time you are in town maybe we can grab a slice at Sal's Pizza. Have a good day.