FL - White House Boys, Dozier School for Boys, Marianna

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Marianna is about 80 miles from my hometown & in the late 50s & maybe early 60s I remember our family going to the "Florida Boys School" to see the Christmas decorations. The residents worked year-round to build elaborate displays through which there was a driving tour. What happens behind the closed gates of such a facility can be very different from the public image.

I doubt Florida is the only state where there was abuse in institutions. However, just 25 miles east of Marianna is the state mental hospital in Chattahoochee. There was a book & 1989 movie "Chattahoochee", about horrific mistreatment of patients who were caged, unclothed & unwashed, just occasionally hosed down by firehoses.... worse conditions than anyone would tolerate for animals.

Isn't it frightening how inhumane people can be? It's too late for those in charge to be made accountable.... most are dead. Financial compensation to former residents can do little to repay their scarred lives now, but I think having the abuse exposed will validate their pain & help them to move forward.

Sad, sad, sad!


I grew up in central FL. All my life there were remarks about being crazy, if you're crazy you get sent to Chattahoochie to the crazy house. Funny, now I live in AL, much closer to Chattahoochie than back then. You never hear remarks like that about the AL state hospital.


I have been hearing comments and reading the occaisionally media story about the boys school the entire time I've lived here.
 
Human bones found in dig at notorious Dozier reform school in Florida

------------------

"We have found evidence of burial hardware - hinges on coffins,"
said Dr. Christian Wells, an anthropologist from the University of South Florida, in a briefing about a mile from the closed excavation site near the former Arthur G. Dozier School for Boys.

"There appear to be a few pieces associated with burial shrouds, and there are pins consistent with the 1920s and 1930s, - based on the style of the pins - and they appear to be brass," he said.

Some "large-bone fragments"
were found on the first day of digging,
Wells said.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...otorious-dozier-reform-school-in-florida?lite

BBM

I find the bolded statement odd. Why would the bones be fragmented if they were interned right after they died? Had the bones been fragmented or fractured before death I wonder?

Scientists have found bodies that were centuries old and the full skeletons were still intact.

IMO
 
Marianna is about 80 miles from my hometown & in the late 50s & maybe early 60s I remember our family going to the "Florida Boys School" to see the Christmas decorations. The residents worked year-round to build elaborate displays through which there was a driving tour. What happens behind the closed gates of such a facility can be very different from the public image.

I doubt Florida is the only state where there was abuse in institutions. However, just 25 miles east of Marianna is the state mental hospital in Chattahoochee. There was a book & 1989 movie "Chattahoochee", about horrific mistreatment of patients who were caged, unclothed & unwashed, just occasionally hosed down by firehoses.... worse conditions than anyone would tolerate for animals.

Isn't it frightening how inhumane people can be? It's too late for those in charge to be made accountable.... most are dead. Financial compensation to former residents can do little to repay their scarred lives now, but I think having the abuse exposed will validate their pain & help them to move forward.

Sad, sad, sad!

The same whispers have always been said about our state hospital too NoZ in Reidsville, Georgia.

I dated a deputy sheriff back in the late 60s and he had to take a mental patient to Reidsville and he asked me if I wanted to ride along so I did. I have never been so sad but terrified as I was of that place at the time. He told me that the guards/staff would beat them to a bloody pulp if they acted up.

As we passed by the women's unit I could see some of the women hanging out the second story window taking their clothes off throwing them on the lawn and talking all sorts of sexual babble. He said the staff would lock these kind up for months at a time in isolation. No wonder they were mentally ill and never left there until they died.

And the man we took up there never said one word the entire time we traveled to get there. I was so young then I didn't realize the importance of it all but it haunts me how they were so mistreated for something they couldn't help. I think a lot of them weren't even mentally ill and the families just wanted to get rid of them.

I don't understand why it is too late for charges to be filed. Aren't there one or two still living today? Isn't the one armed man one of those still alive? A lot of the boys seem to remember him and how brutal he was.

We have seen cases even recently where those in their 80s are being brought to justice for murders they got away with for decades. Some have even been in wheelchairs. And when was the last death there that is known? I don't think this just happened during a certain era and then stopped. For so long nothing or anyone was stopping them from doing whatever they wanted to do to these children. I also wonder if they ever used the excuse that some had run away from the reform school and never were caught but might actually be among the dead there.

What these men did is so unforgivable. They used their power and violent/sexual urges against these boys they were suppose to reform into good men. They knew no one would care about these kids and they took full advantage of that and avoided justice. That is just so wrong on every level of human decency.

I remember as a teen being curious of this place as we passed by it. I knew it was suppose to house over a hundred boys or more that were seen as unruly but the one thing that always stuck out to me is how eerily quiet it was every time we passed by as if the boys there were too afraid to make noise and be kids.
 
BBM

I find the bolded statement odd. Why would the bones be fragmented if they were interned right after they died? Had the bones been fragmented or fractured before death I wonder?

Scientists have found bodies that were centuries old and the full skeletons were still intact.

IMO

I'm guessing that back then the bodies weren't embalmed, but put into simple wooden coffins that have rotted over time. No burial vaults like today.
 
I'm certain Florida does not hold the patent for abuse & mistreatment in "asylums". But, add Sunland Hospitals to the list of facilities where atrocious & barbarous acts occurred. One must hope that as a society, we are making progress in operating these places. Sadly, I do not believe the mainstream & group-home trend as currently employed in Georgia, is the answer.
 
I'm guessing that back then the bodies weren't embalmed, but put into simple wooden coffins that have rotted over time. No burial vaults like today.

I would expect the wooden coffins to deteriorate but not the bones. Bones are extremely hard and even harden more as the years after death passes. Even "The Body Farm' has several bodies they have had for decades who are laying above ground where they are exposed to air and the skeletons are still intact. None of the bones fragmented by themselves.

I would think back in the 50s and 60s the bodies were being embalmed. But I wouldn't be surprised to know it wasn't done for these boys. In fact many of them don't even have grave markers so I don't think anyone else even knew most of these boys had died. They think there is at least a 100 bodies there. Some families got a short to the point letter stating their loved one had died and was buried. Never even asking the family if they wanted their child sent home for a proper burial.

But if they were interned into the ground there would be no reason for the remains to be fragmented. I can see them finding loose teeth that came away from the jaw bone but not fragmented bones. While the rest of the body will completely decompose the bones are very hard and that far down there would be no wild life activity that would disturb them.

While we use burial vaults today it is mostly used to keep water and insects from getting inside of the casket. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Even when bodies have been inside of burial vaults have been exhumed there has been some breakdown to the embalmed body due to water and insects compromising the vault. Roots also can cause the vault to crack and then no longer can seal out water or insects. However the bones do remain intact.

IMO, I think a lot of these boys had life threatening fractures even skull fractures and that will be the COD for some of them.

I just hope they can find them all. They mentioned there may be bodies underneath some of the buildings there as well. IMO, no one puts a body underneath a building unless they have a dark secret they want to keep.

I hate the fact if they aren't claimed they will be sent back to be re-buried where they died. Boot Hill as if they were some kind of gangsters when they weren't. That within itself is another tragedy in all of this.

IMO
 
Bodies started to be embalmed during the civil war.

In the United States, Modern embalming started during the Civil War when President Lincoln directed the Quartermaster Corps to use embalming when returning bodies to their home towns for proper burial.
 
Any decent person without absolutely anything to hide would stand up for these 'lost boys' and what happened to them there. They would want justice for them like they would for their own child if it had happened to them. They would want the truth to be known even if it puts others in a very bad light. No matter how the town folk desires for this to go away..........it isn't and they should realize that now and all should come together wanting the truth to come out.

IMO

That is a huge part of the problem. Everybody wants to pretend "bad" things do not happen down there. It is a nightmare to attempt to get information about anything that happened in that state........bury our heads in the sand.......is just how they choose to cope with any tragedy such as this one. It is as if we can not make them understand......our desire is not to judge the entire state on the actions of a few.......but rather to give the children back their names.......and hopefully to give the families some peace.
I must add.....out of fairness.....that I have noticed in the last few years missing children cases are handled much differently......and no effort appears to be being made to pretend it did not happen there.
Still praying for the families of these children!!!!
 
I also wonder how many monsters they created with their abuse and hell on earth tactics. It isn't a place I would leave a dog
 
The simplest quietest and cheapest way to bury someone is not to use a burial vault. A coffin can be a simple pine box, and the lumber might even be found from the property.

The problem with a pine box, is that it quickly breaks down. The wood deteriorates and rots away leaving the remains open to insects and other predatory activity.

No foxes and dogs and other common predators wouldn't be able to get to the remains after they are buried. But rats and other tunneling vermin could.

Also the remains would be exposed to water, bacteria and other natural means of decomposition. Thus the remains would break down easily.

Also cheaper, quieter and simpler not to embalm. After all an embalmer would see the condition of the body, thus be one more person who knows. My guess is the boys weren't embalmed, or at least not all of them.

This was an institution that exploited it's charges by putting them into "work programs." An institution that may have had enough political power to change laws to allow those "work programs." And an institution that charged the state and locals for the care of these same kids. They were about the money. They were an institution that reportedly beat the kids, sometimes even killing them. And it happened often enough without any seeming repercussions that a pattern seems to indicate it was allowed at the least, maybe even the rule. This was an institution that put the dead ones into the ground without even a marker or a record of where they were buried. This was not an institution that was going to be overly concerned about issues like respect for the remains, let alone preservation.

My question is where did the political power come from? Because what happened back then with the law changes, and what is happening now with the stonewalling of the court case and the "LE investigation" makes me believe that that political power is still there.
 
I agree.......somebody with power is doing all they can to prevent this from happening. It makes a person wonder why? Who would want to keep those families from obtaining some closure? What are they hiding......and why?
 
I bet there will be remains recovered of boys who had been reported to have "escaped".
The White House Boys will have some validation & the state will have to make huge $ettlement$. History will be corrected but, the big winners will be lawyers.

I wonder how many were employed to run the facility. People had to know what was going on, yet kept silent. I cringe at the thought of the leather & metal "whipping device".
 
I'd never heard of this case before I spotted this thread earlier today. What I've read is so horrific, sad and unbelievably outrageous I don't even trust myself to comment.

I just hope everyone involved gets the justice they deserve.
 
From what I understand it finally closed in 2011.

I have traveled from Georgia (my home state) to Florida going this route many times starting in the 1960s.

IMO

Yeah, I just heard that on the news yesterday. For some reason I was thinking it had been closed for a long time. I guess because of the kinds of things they're saying went on there.
 
Yeah, I just heard that on the news yesterday. For some reason I was thinking it had been closed for a long time. I guess because of the kinds of things they're saying went on there.

I wish it had been Karm but it went on for 111 years.

When it finally did close there were still whispers about abuse and rapes being done there.

I read about one boy who died from his beating back in the 20s or 30s iirc and he was flogged 80 times during the last beating.. with the leather strap with a wooden spoon at the end of it.

Why was he beaten? Because when he came there he was physically strong and healthy so they worked him night and day cutting trees and pulling them out of the woods. He got very sick and barely could walk. Festers were oozing all over his feet from the terrible mosquitos there. He had a fever and when the 'Cabin Father' asked him something he was too weak to speak up where he could hear him. That is why he was beaten unmercifully.:(

I can remember at times how our country has been so outraged about the inhumane treatment (floggings) suffered in third world countries yet for decades it was being done to our own male children and no one seem to give a damn.

IMO
 
Researchers go out there and in one day find more than the LE investigation did in it's totality. They have found undocumented remains.

I think it shows the lack of commitment that went into the LE investigation.

The State of Florida isn't in it to find anything.....the opposite actually. Waaaay the opposite. Yep, I belive in Conspiracy Theories.....
 
I grew up in central FL. All my life there were remarks about being crazy, if you're crazy you get sent to Chattahoochie to the crazy house. Funny, now I live in AL, much closer to Chattahoochie than back then. You never hear remarks like that about the AL state hospital.


I have been hearing comments and reading the occasionally media story about the boys school the entire time I've lived here.

I was raised in the Keys, but spent Summers in Sarasota, and folks there would referred to Chattahoochee as as being synonymous with being sent to the grimmest asylum you can think of, or yes, to warn us kids to stay in line, etc.

As an adult I moved up to Volusia county, but the regional folklore there seemed to center around the stories of jim crow south; and Dozier was just referred to as the 'boys school' ...as if locals all knew what being sent there meant in those years. Many stories I'd heard were that the kids weren't all bad but came from poor families that had very little say in what happened to the kids after they ran afoul of the laws, juvenile or otherwise.

One account I believe I read claimed many of the boys buried there were due to families losing track of where the boys were, and were too poor to claim the bodies and transport them home. Part of that I can believe, but that's too many bodies on that property to have all been natural cause deaths, or to go unclaimed.

Everytime I hear of Dozier, I think of that song "hell is for children".

Even if they were throwaway kids, they deserve the respect of history and any remaining family, knowing their fate.

Edit: Link to Daily Mail's stories with pictures, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2414311/Florida-School-Boys-Survivor-talks-horror-reform-school-boys-went-missing.html

Toward the bottom of that article the thermal(?) imaging photos where likely bodies seem to grossly outnumber the crosses.
 
I also wonder how many monsters they created with their abuse and hell on earth tactics. It isn't a place I would leave a dog

I mentioned earlier in this thread that serial/spree killer Paul John Knowles served four "terms" here:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - FL - Search of 32 graves ordered at Florida reform school


After his 1974 killing spree, just before he was shot and killed by a GBI agent during an apparent escape attempt in Georgia, tapes he had made and left behind with his lawyer became the focus of intense legal attention.

Though a grand jury was allowed to listen to them, transcripts made, and some info released to specific LE agencies to help solve open cases, the tapes were then sealed and eventually, it is reported, tapes and transcripts were destroyed from flood damage.

One of Knowles' lawyers claimed that Knowles wanted the tapes released after his death "for the good of society" and there were rumors that one part of the tapes dealt with how his killings went down and another part dealt with his childhood.

While I doubt that all, or even perhaps any, of Knowles' motivation for making the tapes was for "the good of society", it certainly would be interesting to know if he talked, on the tapes, about his time at this institution and what he experienced/observed there.


Lawyer Petitions Circuit Court for Rehearing on Tapes Ruling
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...9yIiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EHUFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2505,249024
 
These reform schools don't make good men, they make broken and beaten men. And with the tilt towards punishment in the justice system rather than rehab we are in danger of having another group of societies unwanted be broken and beaten and turned into people who can not cope with socieities norms. We have to give these children who may have stolen something or had a fight the tools for self esteem growth and adult role models they don't have at home. So when they get out they can then go to school and make something of themselves rather than just have learned better ways to steal.

Its easy to hunger for punishment but much harder to work to reform. The results of the latter are so much greater for everyone though.
 
Just wanted to link a couple of articles that have come out since the most recent posts in this thread were made:


UNT sleuths to help Florida identify remains from boys’ reform school
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/metr...ns-from-boys-reform-school.ece?nclick_check=1




New excavations begin at Florida reform school

A search for unmarked graves in September yielded two bodies. A second dig with heavy machinery is now searching for 50 possible burial sites.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-florida-reform-school-20131027,0,4423204.story
 

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