Flies and Maggots in the trunk - forensic entomology #1

[dreamerlin]

I know, my head is spinning!

The paragraph stating animal carcass, rotting meat, etc., was from Preliminary report #1. The corresponding paragraph from Preliminary report #2 states: These results do not rule out the remote possibility that an unusual variety of products or materials (not present in the trunk at the time of vehicle discovery) may have had some contribution to the overall chemical signature.

Both paragraphs are pretty much the same thing, but the latest (Preliminary report #2) paragraph seems in its wording to be making a slightly tighter conclusion than the first did, by using the words remote and unusual variety.

What makes it all confusing is that Preliminary report #2 was actually released in the first document dump, the first forensics report that we read, and report #1 came out in the second dump.

Do you have the link to the Preliminary Report #2? I've read thru the whole doc dump and don't remember any new reports. TYTYTY :blowkiss:

Nevermind, found it!

 

[Devon]

Welcome Devon!

No, nothing has been released about any testing regarding the maggots (yet!).

Thanks for the welcome!

 

[justbetweenus]

A very pregnant fly, trapped in a sealed container will still lay her eggs - right? Even if her only choice is the remnants of cooked foods - right?


What "other" insects were found in the trunk? The term "other insects" was mentioned by Dr. Lee. This term may have been used in one of the LE reports because I know I have seen two references to it. Does anyone know what kind of "other" insects there were and what kind should we expect to find on a decomposing human body?

No one has mentioned the other kind(s) of insects; they may not be of any relevance or they may be of particular import to the State's case.

I've been wondering about these "other" insects as well. I'm not sure...are beetles insects? I found this interesting site on decomposition stages, maggots, flies, beetles, the whole decomposition story. I'm sure to have nightmares tonight, but can't stop reading. Haven't had the nerve to watch any of the videos yet.

ETA: thinking other insects could be parasitic wasps, according to site. Yuck

http://www.deathonline.net/decomposition/corpse_fauna/beetles/index.htm

 

[Gaia713]

Glad you mentioned preservatives....processing and preservatives are used to extend foods shelf life - meaning it would take longer to "go bad". The heat involved in processing would almost assure no infestation to begin with. This would probably keep the "boxed" food less likely to rot and attract maggots. "Unprocessed" food....fruit, etc, on the other hand, would be a breeding ground for maggots, right ?? Although, in my wonderful searches about maggots - never thought I'd read about maggots... LOL - I don't know the maggots name, but it had said that a maggot that particularly likes human decomp, would go to another source if it had to for food....????

Maggots are used in medicine

 

[Tom'sGirl]

Maggots are used in medicine

Yes, and have been for centuries. They remove the dead tissue and bacteria from a wound.

 

[Nore]

I've been wondering about these "other" insects as well. I'm not sure...are beetles insects? I found this interesting site on decomposition stages, maggots, flies, beetles, the whole decomposition story. I'm sure to have nightmares tonight, but can't stop reading. Haven't had the nerve to watch any of the videos yet.

ETA: thinking other insects could be parasitic wasps, according to site. Yuck

http://www.deathonline.net/decomposition/corpse_fauna/beetles/index.htm

---------------
Hi,"The Body Farm" lists others. A wasp is one of them.I never knew there are different types of flies!

 

[MyTinkieGirl]

Maggots are used in medicine

Yep, that I know. I guess I was basically asking/commenting on maggots feeding on dead body/dead tissue then going to a "different" SOURCE for food when the DEAD human source is used up....I suppose thinking out loud about the maggots found, IN the bag, may have first lived off decomp, then moved on to the "processed" (having a preservative) food in the bag.

 

[kgeaux]

In the doc you linked....down to pg 2519.....says there was a mistake....no pizza as previously reported.

Oh, Lord. Good thing I've already chanted my mantra on Websleuths so many times!! Do you remember it? "Kgeaux has been wrong in the past. Kgeaux will be wrong in the future. Kgeaux may be wrong RIGHT NOW." I guess we know which part of the mantra applies here! Did I make your head spin?

Nope...me wrong.

Oh, ME TOO!!!! At least I was in good company for a minute or two!

Ding Ding Ding....NOT !!! LOL (sorry) No pizza in bag !!!!! Or anywhere...just box....re read pg 2519......prior report made a MISTAKE...just did an experiment for ha ha's....pg 2287 is where they dump the bag out and no pizza, only box.....THESE type of statements are what were confusing me !! LOL

Maybe it should've been more of a "clink, clank, clong" huh? I totally misread the statement on 2519.....I thought it said no "wrapped" pizza was found in the car. Probably nobody on earth was more confused than me!

Bold by me...

I'm sure that a fresh ham (as in raw) would result in maggots during decomposition. Most ham purchased in the stores is smoked, as in fully cooked. I'm not sure it would produce the same results.

Lee might be barking up a dead hog's backside here. (Pun intended)

I think so too, but he specified that maggots were found in the trunk during his re-examination, along with ham and cheese. I would "think" (and please see my mantra!) that the "ham" is "pepperoni" and that the items refer to the remnants of pizza.....perhaps not a decomposing slice, but a little bit stuck to the edges of something.

Where does it say that ANY of these items were in teh trunk, tho. I can't find it stated anywhere in the docs. And the meats used on pizza are usually loaded with preservatives and cooked, not raw. Your statment makes sense, but I want some EVIDENCE that any of those items were actually in the bag or in the trunk - you seem to assume that they are.

No, Gaia, I'm not assuming they were found in the trunk. Dr. Voss says that if those items were EVER in the trunk, it is unknown to what extent they will have skewed the results.

I shared above that I think the "ham" was probably "pepperoni." If it was anything other than RAW ham, I totally agree that we would not see decomp, or maggots.

AND....I think we can rule out the wrapped up animal carcass....LOL. I STILL love that one.

BUT....maybe an animal killed for sport and wrapped up ?? Ah, crap, i need to stop thinking...LOL

Oh, I can totally see Casey wrapping up the little squirrel bodys all tight in saran wrap, so she could take them home and give them a decent burial.........NOT! It is funny, isn't it, the way the results are worded?

Hi all...Anyway, about the maggots.......I don't recall reading any report that there were any maggots found other than those inside the bag, and these were apparently found along with small flies and at least some food items. Of course you may have all sorts of species of fly in the US that we don't see in the UK, but we do have flies that will lay eggs on cooked meat, so I am wondering if the maggots/flies found were not the 'flesh eating' type (yuk!:sick but the 'dump your eggs anywhere suitable' type. I just find it odd if it's correct that the maggots where only in the bag.

Welcome! Your question is one that drives me insane once I start to think about it! As far as I know, we have NEVER been told that the maggots were of the blowfly variety, but LE has mentioned them as though there was some significance.......which would only be true if the maggots were blowfly maggots.

I know, my head is spinning!

The paragraph stating animal carcass, rotting meat, etc., was from Preliminary report #1. The corresponding paragraph from Preliminary report #2 states: These results do not rule out the remote possibility that an unusual variety of products or materials (not present in the trunk at the time of vehicle discovery) may have had some contribution to the overall chemical signature.

Both paragraphs are pretty much the same thing, but the latest (Preliminary report #2) paragraph seems in its wording to be making a slightly tighter conclusion than the first did, by using the words remote and unusual variety.

What makes it all confusing is that Preliminary report #2 was actually released in the first document dump, the first forensics report that we read, and report #1 came out in the second dump.

Thanks, PaperMoon! I was going to publically bow out of the conversation if I'd messed that up, too! It would be time to get my hiney to the eye doc!

 

[MyTinkieGirl]

Oh, Lord. Good thing I've already chanted my mantra on Websleuths so many times!! Do you remember it? "Kgeaux has been wrong in the past. Kgeaux will be wrong in the future. Kgeaux may be wrong RIGHT NOW." I guess we know which part of the mantra applies here! Did I make your head spin?


LOL...no head spinning this time. I hope you didn't take what I was saying as being disrespectful....I wasn't meaning to be. AND....as we all know, at any given time in this case there COULD or COULD NOT have been pizza present.....I remember in the beginning there were FOUR pizza's in the trunk...LOL
Now it's NO pizza....next week it might be a calzone....or chicken lo mein!!!

 

[Devon]

Welcome! Your question is one that drives me insane once I start to think about it! As far as I know, we have NEVER been told that the maggots were of the blowfly variety, but LE has mentioned them as though there was some significance.......which would only be true if the maggots were blowfly maggots.

Thanks for the welcome!

I am not convinced that the maggots found did have/will have any great significance. I find it odd that the information about the testing of the air, carpet samples and strand of human hair was made public, but that there has been no mention whatsoever about any tests being done on the maggots. Even if they have been tested and found to provide damning evidence that is being withheld at the moment, I would have expected to have at least heard that they were being tested.....unless I've missed that nugget of news!

 

[passionflower]

Yes, and have been for centuries. They remove the dead tissue and bacteria from a wound.

I thought that was leeches???

 

[L L & S]

Leeches suck blood through your skin.

ETA... ewww!

 

[passionflower]

Thanks for the welcome!

I am not convinced that the maggots found did have/will have any great significance. I find it odd that the information about the testing of the air, carpet samples and strand of human hair was made public, but that there has been no mention whatsoever about any tests being done on the maggots. Even if they have been tested and found to provide damning evidence that is being withheld at the moment, I would have expected to have at least heard that they were being tested.....unless I've missed that nugget of news!

I remember maggots and insect forencics in another case to figure out the date of death for a little California girl. It was a fascinating research listening to how many generations can be in a short time........blowflies are the first at the scene.............

 

[TURBOTHINK]

Thanks for the welcome!

I am not convinced that the maggots found did have/will have any great significance. I find it odd that the information about the testing of the air, carpet samples and strand of human hair was made public, but that there has been no mention whatsoever about any tests being done on the maggots. Even if they have been tested and found to provide damning evidence that is being withheld at the moment, I would have expected to have at least heard that they were being tested.....unless I've missed that nugget of news!

They don't have to release the information on all the testing. They just have to release the preliminary reports. If you notice most all of them say preliminary. There has been a lot more testing done, and the maggots take much more time.They have to grow those things through each stage and they would have only taken a few for DNA and drug testing of the body. The rest they would have grown into flies and those small flies would have also been grown.

If you go to UT Body farm website you can see some of the interesting things they learn from maggots and flies. There are also other larvae which most likely would have been in pupae stage in that trunk even with all the cleaning the family evidently did. Those will be grown to full growth too.

Also check out the Anthropology Department.

http://web.utk.edu/~anthrop/FACresources.html

 

[Bathbuddys]

Yep, that I know. I guess I was basically asking/commenting on maggots feeding on dead body/dead tissue then going to a "different" SOURCE for food when the DEAD human source is used up....I suppose thinking out loud about the maggots found, IN the bag, may have first lived off decomp, then moved on to the "processed" (having a preservative) food in the bag.

FYI- The maggots were on the outside of the trash bag on the carpet of the trunk. and there was a basketball sized stain in the trunk also.


I still think this baby drowned at the house or accident in the house that was cleaned up very well. we will see what other evidence they got at the house. I think witchy poo was either on the phone or entertaining someone at the house or on the computer. but don't know ALL the facts yet!

 

[chesterp]

Yes, and have been for centuries. They remove the dead tissue and bacteria from a wound.

When my husband was in Vietnam maggots were used frequently to help with the wounds. My husband began to tell me how they were used on him, but I could not listen to it, now that he is gone I wish I had listened more to how they were used for healing.

 

[diz39]

Leeches suck blood through your skin.

ETA... ewww!

Leeches are cool as hell, and they are very useful in medicine. They are used, most often, when there is engorgement of blood that is unable to properly circulate and tissue death is a concern.
I have used them mostly after surgical procedures such as digit (ie finger or toe) reattatchment or in muscle flaps. What happens sometimes is that the blood can flow into the area, but due to swelling and engorgement, cannot flow out. Enter the leech. A very fine needle is used to prick the skin and cause a little blood to get the leech interested. They then latch on, drink til they are full, then they fall off, significantly larger than when they are applied. They also have an anticoagulant property in their saliva as well, which helps in preventing small clots.
I once had a patient that had some radical oral surgery related to cancer, and we had to place the leeches on her tongue. Poor patient was very freaked out, but we got a very good result.

 

[Lanie]

When my husband was in Vietnam maggots were used frequently to help with the wounds. My husband began to tell me how they were used on him, but I could not listen to it, now that he is gone I wish I had listened more to how they were used for healing.

I watched a documentary on this very thing. Elderly gentleman with diabetes was in danger of losing his foot due to gangrene. They persuaded him to try the maggot therapy.
These maggots are bred in a lab under very sterile conditions. They are placed on infectious wounds and wrapped with bandages so they don't escape. It is kind of gross to watch, because you can see them wriggling around under the bandages.
So they put the maggots on the guy's foot. I don't remember the time frame, but they had to change the maggots out every day or so. Maggots will not eat live flesh, only dead flesh. After 2 or 3 weeks, the man's foot was infection free, and they applied some skin grafts to it. His foot was saved.
While I can watch this stuff on TV, I am very squeamish about it in real life. However, if I was in this situation, I would do this, even if I was throwing up 24/7 the whole time. It is absolutely incredible to me to see how effective some of these 'medeival/barbaric' treatments really are.
Lanie

 

[Lanie]

I'm wondering if they actually recovered any maggots. The bag of trash was in the dumpster for I don't know how long before LE recovered it, those maggots could have all bailed by then. Cindy was apparently so unconcerned about the smell of the car she not only went back to work, she also removed items from the car and washed them, so I doubt she was willing to leave nasty little maggots crawling around. I have no clue if LE recovered the trash the A's removed from the car. As of now, I haven't seen anything showing any maggots were recovered.
Lanie

 

[diz39]

I watched a documentary on this very thing. Elderly gentleman with diabetes was in danger of losing his foot due to gangrene. They persuaded him to try the maggot therapy.
These maggots are bred in a lab under very sterile conditions. They are placed on infectious wounds and wrapped with bandages so they don't escape. It is kind of gross to watch, because you can see them wriggling around under the bandages.
So they put the maggots on the guy's foot. I don't remember the time frame, but they had to change the maggots out every day or so. Maggots will not eat live flesh, only dead flesh. After 2 or 3 weeks, the man's foot was infection free, and they applied some skin grafts to it. His foot was saved.
While I can watch this stuff on TV, I am very squeamish about it in real life. However, if I was in this situation, I would do this, even if I was throwing up 24/7 the whole time. It is absolutely incredible to me to see how effective some of these 'medeival/barbaric' treatments really are.
Lanie

Maggots do a wonderful job debriding dead tissue and not harming the healthy. Further, the cost of different enzyme ointments or wound vac systems is outrageous, so the use is extremely effective and inexpensive. Just have go get past the Yuck factor.