For those who agree with the verdict...help me understand.

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There was no medical or forensic evidence of a drowning, ..

There is no medical or forensic evidence for murder either.

This continues to come down to that all the people who agree with the verdict don't understand reasonable doubt.

You are entitled to your opinion but I disagree with it, vehemently, and furthermore, I am even grossly offended by it.
 
respectfully disagree with most of your post. I really imo don't agree that it was some big conspiracy with this jury that led to a Not Guilty Verdict. The SA just did not prove the case. As to the affair, IMO it was important to get the affair in to show that GA was intimate enough with KH to have told/confessed to her "It was an accident that snowballed out of control". Which, went to DT theory of an accidental drowning.

That "snowballed" quote was uselessw since KH couldn't say whether he meant he believed or wanted to believe it or that he knew it for a fact.

We also know from her police interview she said George also said he once thew Casey against the wall and demanded to know what happened, which would contradict the latter interpretation. (This quote was not allowed in court for no good reason that I can see, since the other quote was allowed in. )
 
There is no medical or forensic evidence for murder either.

Yes, there was. The duct tape and the body dump in the woods indicate murder and contra-indicate accidental death.

Regardless, you agree that there was no such evidence for an accident.

There was also other confirming evidence for murder or manslaughter, such as no 911 call and the concealment of the fact of the dead child and lies about her being missing and no admission to any other scenario, and no visible evidence of remorse or grief, until the trial started (then the waterworks finally begin).


You are entitled to your opinion but I disagree with it, vehemently, and furthermore, I am even grossly offended by it.

I feel I supported it well enough with reason.
 
Ok, it was child abuse though wasn't it? I'm pretty sure it was something to that effect she was charged with.

It was tied in with the second charge I believe. can anyone point me to a link of the indictment? TIA
 
Another thing about KH's "snowballed" answer. The judge ruled that the jury couldn't use it as evidence for the fact of the hearsay quote (that there was such an accident), but only to impeach George.
 
I'm not following... so him maybe lying about an affair and maybe saying it was an "accident that snowballed out of control" proves he was in on it? I don't see it that way. It was a he said/she said thing with him and RC, and she was already a liar about having cancer.

IF you believe George.
 
I don't think she was even charged with child neglect. Anyone have a link to the indictment?

Here's the jury instruction:

AGGRAVATED CHILD ABUSE

§ 827.03(2), Fla. Stat.

To prove the crime of Aggravated Child Abuse, the State must prove the following two elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

1. Casey Marie Anthony knowingly or willfully committed child abuse upon Caylee

Marie Anthony and in so doing caused great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement.

2. Caylee Marie Anthony was under the age of eighteen years.

“Willfully” means intentionally, knowingly and purposely.

“Child abuse” means the intentional infliction of physical or mental injury upon a child or an intentional act that could reasonably be expected to result in physical or mental injury to a child or active encouragement of any person to commit an act that results or could reasonably be expected to result in physical or mental injury to a child.


This was FCA third charge: Aggravated Child Abuse
 
Your list above is correct IF you don't take the dysfunction and molestation in to account. You've gotta agree that the family is really really dysfunctional and all of them lie and cover up. IMO

There was NO evidence of molestation. It was unethical for Baez to bring it up without offering evidence. It was inappropriate for the jury to consider it.

The molestation opening statement tainted the juror's mind about George.

You can believe all the Anthony's lie and this by itself does not raise reasonable doubt.

You have to look at the totality of the evidence.

I have no doubt that there was a decomposing body in the trunk (six people and one trained dog independently smelled it). If you say the probability that any one of them was wrong was 20% and that the trained dog was wrong was 5% the probability that they were all wrong is 0.00032% which rounds out to 0 probability of there NOT being a decomposing body. The idea that the trash or garbage bag however you want to call it would generate that smell IMO makes no sense.

I could go on, but overall if you examine all the evidence even if you ignore the Anthony's statement there is no reasonable doubt of Casey's guilt.

Even if you somehow construct a scenario that somehow George was also involved, this would only mean that George is also somehow guilty not that Casey is not guilty.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beccalecca1
I respectfully disagree. I think there was enough evidence to point out how probable it was that Caylee drowned in the pool, not that she was murdered by her mother.

Would you please list this evidence? Thanks :-)
 
Per RC's testimony, she said GA said "I THINK it was an accident that snowballed out of control" not "IT WAS an accident that snowballed out of control." Huge difference!

Huge Difference is correct. But what you are saying is Not True. SA kept trying to get her to say that and agree to the "I THINK" and she flat out and forcefully, I might add, said that he said IT WAS not I THINK.
 
Since we keep coming back to "reasonable doubt," here is a general overview of what that means:

The term "reasonable doubt" is difficult to define with precision. Indeed, while the jury must always be instructed to apply this standard when determining guilt or innocence, less agreement exists on whether the Court should define reasonable doubt for the jury. Some state and federal courts have concluded that jury instructions defining reasonable doubt are not required and should be avoided, although it is not usually per se reversible error for the trial court to give an accurate instruction defining the term. Most of these courts have reached the conclusion that reasonable doubt need not be defined on the grounds that the term is self-explanatory, and a definition would tend only to confuse the jury. Other courts, however, require that juries receive a definition of reasonable doubt,particularly when the jury requests an instruction.

For those courts that still define the term, the Supreme Court has made it clear that the trial court must be careful what definition it uses. For example, in Cage v. Louisiana,a prosecution for murder, a jury instruction defined "reasonable doubt" in part as follows: "This doubt, however, must be a reasonable one; that is one that is founded upon a real tangible substantial basis and not upon mere caprice and conjecture. It must be such doubt as would give rise to a grave uncertainty, raised in your mind by reasons of the unsatisfactory character of the evidence or lack thereof. A reasonable doubt is not a mere possible doubt. It is an actual substantial doubt. It is a doubt that a reasonable man can seriously entertain. What is required is not an absolute or mathematical certainty, but a moral certainty." In ruling that the instruction was contrary to the "beyond a reasonable doubt" requirement articulated in Winship, the Court explained: "In construing the instruction, we consider how reasonable jurors could have understood the charge as a whole … . The charge did at one point instruct that to convict, guilt must be found beyond a reasonable doubt, but it then equated a reasonable doubt with a 'grave uncertainty' and an 'actual substantial doubt,' and stated that what was required was a 'moral certainty' that the defendant was guilty. It is plain to us that the words 'substantial' and 'grave,' as they are commonly understood, suggest a higher degree of doubt than is required for acquittal under the reasonable doubt standard. When those statements are then considered with the reference to 'moral certainty', rather than evidentiary certainty, it becomes clear that a reasonable juror could have interpreted the instruction to allow a finding of guilt based on a degree of proof below that required by the Due Process Clause."

Some courts prefer to define reasonable doubt in terms of hesitation to act (i.e., the kind of doubt that would make a reasonable person hesitate or pause to act in important life transactions), rather than a willingness to act (i.e., the kind of doubt that would make a reasonable person willing to act in important life transactions). Some federal authorities have criticized the "hesitate" language. Some courts have also admonished trial courts not to use phrases such as "equally balanced mind," "probabilities," or "balancing of evidence" when defining the term reasonable doubt. Some courts have defined reasonable doubt using the phrase "firmly convinced" and other courts have used the phrase "abiding conviction" to define reasonable doubt.

In some cases, the attempt has been made to define the phrase in terms of itself, i.e., a reasonable doubt is a doubt for which a reason can be given. Some courts have criticized this definition as requiring a juror to vote for conviction, in spite of a "reasonable" doubt of guilt, if the juror cannot verbalize a particular reason for the doubt.

A reasonable doubt must be a doubt arising from the evidence, or from the want of evidence, and cannot be an imaginary doubt or conjecture unrelated to the evidence.

In some states, particularly where the only evidence is circumstantial, proof beyond a reasonable doubt must exclude every reasonable hypothesis or inference except guilt.* However, a proper reasonable doubt instruction has been held to be sufficient even in a circumstantial evidence case. In no event is it necessary to dispel all possible doubt. It is not necessary to show that the defendant is probably innocent, for a distinction exists between a probability of innocence and a reasonable doubt of guilt. The evidence may leave in the minds of the jurors a reasonable doubt, even though it is not sufficient to show a probability of innocence.

Source: Wharton's Criminal Evidence § 2:4. BBM.

* This idea comes from Rent v. U.S., 209 F.2d 893, 899 (5th Cir. 1954) (to sustain the conviction of the defendant, "the inferences reasonably drawn from the evidence must not only be consistent with his guilt but inconsistent with every reasonable hypothesis of his innocence").

I would say that the defense presented some reasonable hypotheses of innocence. They refuted enough of the state's case to introduce doubt for me in some of the state's evidence, and they also introduced hypotheses of their own, some which I felt also raised reasonable doubt.
 
GA testified that he wanted to believe that Casey did not murder Caylee. Given the smell in the car he probably believed from the first day that the most likely scenario was that Caylee was dead and that Casey had something to do with it. At the same time he did not want to confront Cindy over this and IMO as he didn't know for sure, went along with the searching for Caylee.

Even if GA said to RC what she said he did this NOT prove that he KNEW it was an "accident that snowballed out of control," much less what kind of accident. Note that RC testified that GA responded this after she said something to the effect that she did not believe he could have raised someone that would harm or kill Caylee. Given that by then he knew that there was no Zanny and that Casey was not giving any explanations the more likely scenarios were: an accident or a homicide. His behavior suggest he clung to the hope of Caylee alive even if he didn't really believe this was likely.

No matter whether GA perjured himself or not, there was no evidence presented in the case that this was an "accident that snowballed out of controlled." Ironically the judge instructed the jury explicitly not to consider RC testimony as evidence of "an accident that snowballed out of control."
Unfortunately IMO it seems that this is exactly what the jury believed, all evidence to the contrary, and disregarding the judge's explicit instructions.

Baez was masterful in framing the story in ways that the jury was able to buy: "an accident that snowballed out of control," + "fantasy forensics + "dysfunctional family" = "reasonable doubt."

It was similar to, if a bit more complicated than Cochran's "if the gloves don't fit you must acquit" story in the OJ case. Now for OJ the jury took 4 hours, for Casey Anthony 10.

BBM: I don't recall that. I'll try to find her testimony and review but I really don't recall that.
 
sorry, but you are way off on this. For those of us here that have followed this case since July 16, 2008, read hundreds of pages of depositions, reviewed thousands of pages of evidence, listened to hours and hours of hearings, motions, etc. and the fact that many of us WS here have legal backgrounds and the knowledge of how to apply the law....this is insulting.

I did all of the above, and I believe the state failed to prove Caylee was murdered. While you feel insulted, I must point out that it is insulting to think that those who believe there was reasonable doubt did NOT follow the evidence, hearings and trial. Some of us did. And we STILL think there is reasonable doubt!!

Speaking for myself only, I always assume innocence until evidence proves otherwise. While I may "feel" that Casey is responsible for Caylee's death, I KNOW that the evidence allows for reasonable doubt. The FBI reports on the trunk point out that all of their findings DO NOT MEAN that a human being was decomposing in that trunk. There was DNA on the duct tape that did not belong to Caylee, Casey OR the lab worker. I've got more reasons than this, but time is short, and I have listed several reasons several times.

I think that Casey is guilty, BUT I do agree that because of the piss-poor prosecution and the lack of solid evidence with most of it being circumstantial and the evidence that was presented being peppered with plenty of "reasonable doubt" or at least what a jury would be instructed to agree falls under "reasonable doubt", there was no other verdict to be brought.

Having been on a 25 to life, 3rd strike jury that deliberated for almost three weeks and delivered a verdict I was not happy to have to agree with, I can say that sometimes it doesn't matter what you THINK happened, you have to follow the instructions and the letter of the law.

It is tough to be on a jury. I think everyone who has served on a jury knows the level of responsibility one feels when the fate of another is in your hands.

This is not the first case that the jury felt one way and decided another, based on the law. God bless you for your service!

Dr. G's statement was that in her experience and those of her departments, that accidental drowings are 100% reported...because there is always some hope that the child can be resuscitated.

It is never good to use the words "never, always, or 100%" in testimony. Dr. G, while I tend to agree with her on most things, honestly doesn't know how many accidental drownings are not reported, because she only sees the ones that ARE reported.

I would say 80% of families are dysfunctional....and dysfunction isn't an excuse or a reasonable doubt....and guess what...people lie on the stand every day in every court in this country. The juries job was to review and evidence, discern fact from fiction, determine credibility of testimony, etc. With 6 weeks of testimony, dozens of witnesses, hundreds of pieces of testimony.....they did all that in less than 10 hours?

I agree that most families are disfunctional, but honestly, this one family sorta stands out in the crowd. I think that they may be in the "upper" end of the bell curve.

She testified to the outer DNA profile (full profile I might add) being her's. There was another marker on the tape, that wasn't Casey's or Caylees, and it only had one allele, 17. This wasn't Lorie's. And, a full profile, or at least a more amplified profile could've been attained if they would've allowed touch DNA.

THANK YOU! I've tried to say this before, but never spelled it right out like you've done. There was UNIDENTIFIED Dna on the tape, not Caylee's, not Casey's, not the lab worker's.
 
Huge Difference is correct. But what you are saying is Not True. SA kept trying to get her to say that and agree to the "I THINK" and she flat out and forcefully, I might add, said that he said IT WAS not I THINK.

I may be wrong, but I believe in her deposition she said something like, GA thought it was an accident that snowballed out of control and didn't believe he could raise a daughter who would kill someone.

and, i guess im really wrong, but I SWEAR I remember JA questioning RC (or the other name she uses for which I am still not sure why? Does anybody know the answer to this?) and she did admit on the stand that he said "he thought it was an accident that snowballed out of control."

and going further, what father would believe otherwise anyway? If something happened to my child (GOD FORBID) and I was somehow involved (NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS) my father would be the first one screaming IT WAS AN ACCIDENT! This doesn't mean GA knew this for fact, most likely what any father would think if their child was being accused of murder.
 
The problem I have with the drowning accident theory is:

The timing of it (took KC 3 years to come up with it.)

It relies on CA ever changing "memory" of the ladder incident. We know her testimony is more than likely a convenient lie.

It's ridiculous that the whole family is too stupid to think to call 911

I just can't get to any place in my ability to reason that makes me comfortable with any conclusion other than that KC caused this baby's death and threw her away.
 
version used in Florida and actually given to the jury rather than a general overview which a jury would never be given to utilize.

Whenever the words "reasonable doubt" are used you must consider the following:
A reasonable doubt is not a mere possible doubt, a speculative, imaginary or forced doubt. Such a doubt must not influence you to return a verdict of not guilty if you have an abiding conviction of guilt. On the other hand, if, after carefully considering, comparing and weighing all the evidence, there is not an abiding conviction of guilt, or, if, having a conviction, it is one which is not stable but one which wavers and vacillates, then the charge is not proved beyond every reasonable doubt and you must find the defendant not guilty because the doubt is reasonable. It is to the evidence introduced in this trial, and to it alone, that you are to look for that proof. A reasonable doubt as to the guilt of the defendant may arise from the evidence, conflict in the evidence or the lack of evidence. If you have a reasonable doubt, you should find the defendant not guilty. If you have no reasonable doubt, you should find the defendant guilty.

It is solely based upon this specific instruction to this jury that I find their verdict lacks support in light of their own statements. The Foreman actually uses the word "speculate" many times, acknowledges they spent time "speculating" about George rather than reviewing the evidence as instructed. This case was about Casey not about George yet they became sidetracked onto a discussion of George's possible guilt although that was not even suggested by the defense, that George may have murdered Caylee.

They say they believed she was guilty and were "sick" about finding her NG. Maybe they should have spent a smidgen of time reading the darn instructions. The instructions cover that :
A reasonable doubt is not a mere possible doubt, a speculative, imaginary or forced doubt. Such a doubt must not influence you to return a verdict of not guilty if you have an abiding conviction of guilt.

I think Mr. Know it All Foreman seriously led this jury astray. Why is the lingering question for me.


Since we keep coming back to "reasonable doubt," here is a general overview of what that means:



Source: Wharton's Criminal Evidence § 2:4. BBM.

* This idea comes from Rent v. U.S., 209 F.2d 893, 899 (5th Cir. 1954) (to sustain the conviction of the defendant, "the inferences reasonably drawn from the evidence must not only be consistent with his guilt but inconsistent with every reasonable hypothesis of his innocence").

I would say that the defense presented some reasonable hypotheses of innocence. They refuted enough of the state's case to introduce doubt for me in some of the state's evidence, and they also introduced hypotheses of their own, some which I felt also raised reasonable doubt.
 
I may be wrong, but I believe in her deposition she said something like, GA thought it was an accident that snowballed out of control and didn't believe he could raise a daughter who would kill someone.

and, i guess im really wrong, but I SWEAR I remember JA questioning RC (or the other name she uses for which I am still not sure why? Does anybody know the answer to this?) and she did admit on the stand that he said "he thought it was an accident that snowballed out of control."

and going further, what father would believe otherwise anyway? If something happened to my child (GOD FORBID) and I was somehow involved (NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS) my father would be the first one screaming IT WAS AN ACCIDENT! This doesn't mean GA knew this for fact, most likely what any father would think if their child was being accused of murder.

Krystal Holloway(aka River Cruz) told police investigators this." He.. he just said that, I really BELIEVE that it was an accident. And she tried to cover it up." If you can believe KH it appears George is telling her what he thinks may have happened.

Page 16-17 line 24-1 of her statement under oath on Feb. 17, 2010.

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/23070163/detail.html
 
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