For Those Who Do Think Avery was Framed & Evidence Planted - Discuss

[Jaiddie]

http://gmancasefile.com/moore-to-the-story.html

Final Moore to the Story: An FBI Agents Take on MaM: Episode 10:

He is finally ready to dig into the evidence for himself. Man, he has got a treasure trove to go through now, LOL! :lookingitup:

 

[dexter75]

My GOD, I LOVE this guy!!!

This isn't just some " armchair detective " grasping at straws.

I particularly LOVE his " INVESTIGATORS NOTES "

Thanks Jaiddie!

http://gmancasefile.com/moore-to-the-story.html

Final Moore to the Story: An FBI Agents Take on MaM: Episode 10:

He is finally ready to dig into the evidence for himself. Man, he has got a treasure trove to go through now, LOL! :lookingitup:

 

[missy1974]

So what do y'all make of this comment? Legit?
http://overthrow.us/characters/ken-kratz/im-still-waiting-for-ken-kratz-to-respond/#comment-4071

<modsnip>

I'm going to quote it here in case it goes away, but if that's not okay please let me know!

pulling this over from the other thread zerbert... only because I am not convinced he is guilty lol

From the bolded part... it sure seems like it could be someone working with Zellner... or is trying to imply they are, doesn't it? Interesting though ;-) If I had to guess at who they are insinuating is the guilty party/parties.... I would look at those close to her.

 

[zerbert]

pulling this over from the other thread zerbert... only because I am not convinced he is guilty lol

From the bolded part... it sure seems like it could be someone working with Zellner... or is trying to imply they are, doesn't it? Interesting though ;-) If I had to guess at who they are insinuating is the guilty party/parties.... I would look at those close to her.

Haha I keep getting the two threads mixed up. I thought I was posting in this one to begin with! :laughing:

If they're not just blowing smoke (which I have a strong suspicion they are), they're saying it's NOT Brad C., it's NOT Edwards, and there was more than one killer. Put that together with the previous clues that it's not someone in SA's family and it's a man she knew for a while. Does that add up?

 

[missy1974]

Haha I keep getting the two threads mixed up. I thought I was posting in this one to begin with! :laughing:

If they're not just blowing smoke (which I have a strong suspicion they are), they're saying it's NOT Brad C., it's NOT Edwards, and there was more than one killer. Put that together with the previous clues that it's not someone in SA's family and it's a man she knew for a while. Does that add up?

yep.... she had an ex-bf and a room mate (who she possibly had intimate relations with) that just happened to be best friends. The room mate didn't alert anyone for 3 days and still wasn't the one to report or look into where she was... the ex inserted himself into the investigation on the first night (the phone call logs that they handed to Wiegert that night is still the biggest red flag to me ~ the STEVEN AVERY call that should have been the TOM JANDA call if anyone used reverse directory, which IIRC from the new documents, they did do that later).... and then the ex moved into the house for awhile too.

So yep... the 'comment' makes sense to me ;-)

That being said, there are a ton of people that believe that 1 or both of these individuals were responsible, so the comment could have been written by anyone and they wanted to sound cool by saying something about Zellner and her group lol

 

[zerbert]

yep.... she had an ex-bf and a room mate (who she possibly had intimate relations with) that just happened to be best friends. The room mate didn't alert anyone for 3 days and still wasn't the one to report or look into where she was... the ex inserted himself into the investigation on the first night (the phone call logs that they handed to Wiegert that night is still the biggest red flag to me ~ the STEVEN AVERY call that should have been the TOM JANDA call if anyone used reverse directory, which IIRC from the new documents, they did do that later).... and then the ex moved into the house for awhile too.

So yep... the 'comment' makes sense to me ;-)

That being said, there are a ton of people that believe that 1 or both of these individuals were responsible, so the comment could have been written by anyone and they wanted to sound cool by saying something about Zellner and her group lol

I hate thinking that because they both seem like nice guys. Of course I think all of them seem like nice people, so I'll just be over here playing with my collection of wooden nickels.

 

[Jaiddie]

http://fox6now.com/2016/04/15/wisconsin-justice-department-fires-former-prison-chief-ed-wall/

'Wisconsin Justice Department Fires Former Prison Chief Ed Walls'

Hopefully, this means that the official cleaning house is soon to commence.

 

[zerbert]

Does anyone know which pics are the ones Pam Sturm took with the camera that Ryan Hillegas gave her?

 

[missy1974]

Does anyone know which pics are the ones Pam Sturm took with the camera that Ryan Hillegas gave her?

exhibit's 29-35 are the photo's that she took that day. the photo's uploaded at stevenaverycase.org don't seem to have them (he didn't get copies of photo's that were already available elsewhere because they were ridiculously expensive) The best I can do at the moment is...

http://stevenaverycase.com/#sthash.MgVA93J3.dpbs

scroll down to the bottom, the first 5 photo's of the RAV4 seem to be screencaps from the show of the one's she took.

ETA: exhibit 30 http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exhibit-30-RAV4-side.jpg
exhibit 32 http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exhibit-32-RAV4-tire.jpg
exhibit 33 http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exhibit-33-RAV4-side.jpg
exhibit 34 http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exhibit-34-RAV4-top.jpg


ETAA: I believe this is exhibit 31 http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/exhibit-RAV4.jpg

I think this one is 29 (but it says 308 in the picture description) http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/exhibit-308-RAV4-spare-tire.jpg

I guess he did have some on that site... added them for you much better quality

 

[BigCityAccountant]

exhibit's 29-35 are the photo's that she took that day. the photo's uploaded at stevenaverycase.org don't seem to have them (he didn't get copies of photo's that were already available elsewhere because they were ridiculously expensive) The best I can do at the moment is...

http://stevenaverycase.com/#sthash.MgVA93J3.dpbs

scroll down to the bottom, the first 5 photo's of the RAV4 seem to be screencaps from the show of the one's she took.

ETA: exhibit 30 http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exhibit-30-RAV4-side.jpg
exhibit 32 http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exhibit-32-RAV4-tire.jpg
exhibit 33 http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exhibit-33-RAV4-side.jpg
exhibit 34 http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exhibit-34-RAV4-top.jpg


ETAA: I believe this is exhibit 31 http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/exhibit-RAV4.jpg

I think this one is 29 (but it says 308 in the picture description) http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/exhibit-308-RAV4-spare-tire.jpg

I guess he did have some on that site... added them for you much better quality

Wouldn't it stand to reason that whoever put the car in that location--and if that person was bleeding and was the same person who put those items on and around the car--Wouldn't there have to be blood on the items around the car???

 

[missy1974]

Wouldn't it stand to reason that whoever put the car in that location--and if that person was bleeding and was the same person who put those items on and around the car--Wouldn't there have to be blood on the items around the car???

Don't be silly BCA ~ SA only bleeds in RAV4's LOL

Seriously though, they did take a few of the items and 'examined' them all, there was nothing. I think they tried for prints on a few items too.

In the testimony, one of the officers (Ertl?) said that there was a tree at the front of the RAV4 that looked like it still had roots. Somewhere in Earl's interviews, he said that he had uprooted 2 tree's, he was going to take them home and plant them, and him and Fabian put them by the conveyor belt (with the golf cart).... I wonder if one of the tree's used was one of the one's he uprooted. I always thought it was strange that a tree with roots was used and wondered where it came from. ***without looking at the maps again, the conveyor was in the southwest corner of the property I think.

This rooted tree is what makes me think it was NOT EA.... why would he tell the cops about those 2 trees if he 'knew' he used one to hide the RAV4. JMO

ETA: btw, it's the little things like why isn't there blood on those items that give me doubts, there are just some things that aren't logical at all to me.

 

[Hippiemomof5]

Wouldn't it stand to reason that whoever put the car in that location--and if that person was bleeding and was the same person who put those items on and around the car--Wouldn't there have to be blood on the items around the car???

Especially the way he was dripping blood... It would have been in several places around the RAV 4, and pieces of "camouflage," the same as inside. If he noticed he was bleeding, and cleaned his hands or put on gloves (or new gloves if you think he bled through them), then it would only make sense that the inside of the car would be checked and cleaned up. There's no way he noticed he was bleeding enough to stop and make sure he didn't bleed outside but not think, "oh my gosh, I probably bled inside!" It makes no sense to me.

 

[Hippiemomof5]

ETA: btw, it's the little things like why isn't there blood on those items that give me doubts, there are just some things that aren't logical at all to me.

Same here Missy. There is so many "little details" that make no sense, that even with the bad stuff that points towards SA, I have to doubt.

 

[ZOOL]

<sbm>
[...]In the testimony, one of the officers (Ertl?) said that there was a tree at the front of the RAV4 that looked like it still had roots. Somewhere in Earl's interviews, he said that he had uprooted 2 tree's, he was going to take them home and plant them, and him and Fabian put them by the conveyor belt (with the golf cart).... I wonder if one of the tree's used was one of the one's he uprooted. I always thought it was strange that a tree with roots was used and wondered where it came from. ***without looking at the maps again, the conveyor was in the southwest corner of the property I think.

This rooted tree is what makes me think it was NOT EA.... why would he tell the cops about those 2 trees if he 'knew' he used one to hide the RAV4. JMO...

p208 Robert Fabian interview
[...]ROBERT FABIAN indicates EARL picks up two trees and places them in the back of the golf cart and they attempt rabbit hunting in the lower pit area.

p236 Earl Avery interview
[...]EARL says he takes two trees, which he had dug up the same day, and places them into the golf cart. EARL describes the trees as seven to nine feet tall and one to two inches in diameter. EARL, earlier in the day, at approximately 11:00 or 12:00 has used the end-loader with the forks to remove the trees from their location. EARL says he is going to take the trees home with him to his residence to plant them. EARL states ROBERT and he dumped the trees by the conveyor.

(see http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf)

Missy ~ Your observation and point made is very direct. I imagine the condition of the soil around the root system on the "rav4 tree" would have been extremely relevant to a WCI investigator: it would not only provide a possible verification of time but also knowledge of three things: the conveyor, the crusher, and the placement of the rav4 to those specific pieces of equipment. My guess would be that SA intended to crush the rav4 but decided first that he needed to cover his immediate murder evidence before sunrise. I'm guessing that he may have also felt that the rav4 represented considerable financial gain if he could strip its interior, or at least "clean" the blood trail the following day without being noticed.

However your remark about bleeding onto the items seems more to the point: How is it possible that the same person who left blood inside the rav4 did not also leave a blood trail onto the plywood etcetera? Why would he wait until after exiting the rav4 before putting on gloves? Perhaps he didn't realize that he had opened his middle finger wound until after he exited the rav4; or maybe he acquired that specific wound on a nail from the debris....

I suppose we will never know unless SA tells us. :whoosh:

 

[missy1974]

Zool ~ I've been busy today and might not be able to look for a few hours, but the conveyor is also where someone could drive in if they were coming in from the "back way" into the yard IIRC ( I need to go back and look at the maps to figure out where this conveyor was)

You look at it like how could SA utilize that and why.... and I look at it like anyone could have drove by, saw it, went back and got it to "hide" the vehicle. I don't think we have any good pics of it, but I'm guessing it still had some leaves? it was a bit better than just an old branch if trying to hide something. I don't buy the theory that he was going to crush it... He had Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.... the cops come on Thursday, he had Friday and he leaves on Saturday to go to the cabin.... why not stay back and work all night to crush it if he had too, hardly anyone on the property to notice too. JMO but he had time to crush that vehicle and he didn't do it, and I don't see any evidence that he was preparing it to be crushed.

As for getting the cut from the debris.... so he locks the doors, puts stuff around it, cuts himself, unlocks the door to bleed in the RAV4? Some of it is just logic to me. Even if it was SA physically sitting/standing there bleeding.... how logical is it that there is no evidence of blood on anything that was found around that vehicle? It's not IMO.

Also... just so you know... there are some things that I can read and think geesh, it could be SA, but there are also things that just don't make sense. Those things that just don't make sense, leaves me with doubts, which leads me to doubts about the other things that do make sense LOL

 

[missy1974]

So I found the time to look for the photo's.... didn't take me long LOL already had them in a folder, just didn't have time to look earlier today.

First, here is the aerial view, Exhibit 25. Using exhibit 93, it's easy to find the conveyor now (or it was for me LOL) Remember that the left of this photo is North, the right of the photo is South.



Here is exhibit 93, what they called an "animated" photo. You can see where the conveyor is, it makes a Y or T, plus looks like there is another smaller conveyor there. I did go back to the summary of Earl's statement about the trees, but it is not specific at all about where he put them. This photo, North is up, South is down.




The only photo I could find of the front of the RAV4 is this one. I have no idea which, if any of those trees we can see are the one's that were described as having roots.... they look pretty dead to me, but I'm not a very good gardener lol I believe... but I'm not sure, this is one of the photo's that Pam took.




Something else I found while doing a search for Earl's comment....

The dog had interest in two spots in the junkyard, the intersection of the
conveyor system in the southwest corner and a tall weeded area in the northwest corner of the
lot. These areas I marked for further investigation.

Kucharski report on page 85, http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=85

I wonder if this is where EA put the trees?

 

[missy1974]

Another thing I can't find an answer too....

Where is her purse? I did a search of the CASO doc and the only reference to her purse that I can find comes up in BD's interviews, they want him to say her purse was put in the barrel with the electronics. But there is no evidence of that. Every purse I have ever owned, had some sort of metal on it, a zipperer, metal rings, big metal buttons, something. I don't see anything in reports with friends/family about her purse, I don't see that anyone found a purse, nothing.

Also.. her other keys ... no mention of those either. We know she had a house key, a garage key, a studio key (or 2 according to Pearce), and pretty sure I read somewhere that she had a key for the school where she coached volleyball (I remember reading a report that they tried some keys there but none worked)

Off to work.... have a great day all

BCA ~ hope all is going good with your daughter, check in ;-)

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Another thing I can't find an answer too....

Where is her purse? I did a search of the CASO doc and the only reference to her purse that I can find comes up in BD's interviews, they want him to say her purse was put in the barrel with the electronics. But there is no evidence of that. Every purse I have ever owned, had some sort of metal on it, a zipperer, metal rings, big metal buttons, something. I don't see anything in reports with friends/family about her purse, I don't see that anyone found a purse, nothing.

Also.. her other keys ... no mention of those either. We know she had a house key, a garage key, a studio key (or 2 according to Pearce), and pretty sure I read somewhere that she had a key for the school where she coached volleyball (I remember reading a report that they tried some keys there but none worked)

Off to work.... have a great day all

BCA ~ hope all is going good with your daughter, check in ;-)

Checking in. She is doing as well as to be expected. It will be a long road to recovery, but thankfully she is alive. Thank you so much for asking!

 

[GigiG]

Checking in. She is doing as well as to be expected. It will be a long road to recovery, but thankfully she is alive. Thank you so much for asking!

I can only guess that this was something shared offline. But just want to share that I also hope your daughter is doing well, BCA.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

I can only guess that this was something shared offline. But just want to share that I also hope your daughter is doing well, BCA.

Awe...thank you GigiG. Not sure if the mods snipped it. She was in an auto accident, has a fractured spine. She's in pain, but recovering.