Forensic evidence

[coloradokares]

coloradokares,

Sure they might not miss underwear, but they were probably only looking for childrens underwear, as in size-4/6 etc.

If Patsy had put the remaining size-12's in another of her own drawers maybe these were overlooked?

Otherwise they left the house by some other route, since they cannot both be at the house in which JonBenet was killed and at their new address?

So like the pineapple it has that smell of something out of place?


.

Why do I think they'd be particulary interested in both size 12's and 6's when they found her body in size 12's which were so obviously out of sync. I realize they BPD and its investigators didn't nail down the crime scene but they'd been to police acadamy 101 at least. No ....those size 12's got in the Ramsey custody somehow. I doubt they walked out the door with them furcoat and all......mmmmmm Sorry I must be jaded....Aunt Pam keeps coming to mind. I think she was sent with a shopping list. Other than that they'd of sent her into the hell hole with a simple request. Something appropriate in black and few clothes for us ......?

 

[Ames]

Why do I think they'd be particulary interested in both size 12's and 6's when they found her body in size 12's which were so obviously out of sync. I realize they BPD and its investigators didn't nail down the crime scene but they'd been to police acadamy 101 at least. No ....those size 12's got in the Ramsey custody somehow. I doubt they walked out the door with them furcoat and all......mmmmmm Sorry I must be jaded....Aunt Pam keeps coming to mind. I think she was sent with a shopping list. Other than that they'd of sent her into the hell hole with a simple request. Something appropriate in black and few clothes for us ......?

LOL...a shopping list? That's a great way to put it. I am sure that a few clothes, and something for the Ramsey's to put into JB's coffin, wouldn't take up a whole back seat AND the trunk of the police cruiser. Shoot, she could have just held that stuff in her lap. Does anyone know if Pam had a written out list of things to get, or did she just have one h*ll of a memory?

 

[lannie]

Thanks lannie. I'm reading lots on acandyrose lately. But, what was initially written in the blocked out line is what I would like to know. And, I was also wondering if others have ever questioned or know what was on that line.

No we do not know,much like goverment classifed papers when they are declassified, wish we did know,, there has be a lot of guessing ,,but we may never know, sorry .

 

[JMO8778]

I don't know for a fact, but...I am pretty sure that the police gave them (the gloves) to her to wear to prevent contamination of the crime scene...I wouldn't think that she would spot a pair of latex gloves there in the house, and then slip them on. I am guessing that the police had tons of them in their cars...and gave her some to wear so that she could rummage through the crime scene and pick out "funeral clothes"...along with tons of other things (enough to fill the backseat and trunk of a police cruiser). I know that we have NO idea what all she took out of the house that night...but, I have heard that along with the clothes, she took dolls, one of Patsy's paintings, stuffed animals, and a few other small things to place in JB's coffin. Can anyone else add to this list?? We know that more than that was taken, because of all the space needed to haul it (the backseat, and trunk).

the entire contents of a curio cabinet,pictures,PASSPORTS,credit cards,family bible,jewelry,clothes,bank records,personal pprs,toys,cell phone,xmas stockings...per ST's book,that's it in a nutshell(the abbreviated version)lol.

 

[JMO8778]

LOL...a shopping list? That's a great way to put it. I am sure that a few clothes, and something for the Ramsey's to put into JB's coffin, wouldn't take up a whole back seat AND the trunk of the police cruiser. Shoot, she could have just held that stuff in her lap. Does anyone know if Pam had a written out list of things to get, or did she just have one h*ll of a memory?

I read somewhere she did,b/c ppl were questioning the fact the R's say they were too out of it to talk to LE,yet they gave PP a detailed list of items to get from the house.(she had stuffed animals in her lap,lol).

 

[JMO8778]

I don't know for a fact, but...I am pretty sure that the police gave them (the gloves) to her to wear to prevent contamination of the crime scene...I wouldn't think that she would spot a pair of latex gloves there in the house, and then slip them on. I am guessing that the police had tons of them in their cars...and gave her some to wear so that she could rummage through the crime scene and pick out "funeral clothes"...along with tons of other things (enough to fill the backseat and trunk of a police cruiser). I know that we have NO idea what all she took out of the house that night...but, I have heard that along with the clothes, she took dolls, one of Patsy's paintings, stuffed animals, and a few other small things to place in JB's coffin. Can anyone else add to this list?? We know that more than that was taken, because of all the space needed to haul it (the backseat, and trunk).

yes,ST says LE did give her a pair of latex gloves (as well as a police jacket to wear).

 

[JMO8778]

Oh, I just rechecked, it was age 32.

ST, hb, page 53

Pam finally got into the front seat, clutching some stuffed animals, and Chromiak drove off, only to have Pam thrust out her arms and scream as if spiders were crawling on her. "Get these gloves off of me! Get them off! Get them off! Get them OFF!" The puzzled cop removed the latex gloves, and Pam immediately felt better. "I need a large Diet Coke with a lot of ice," she demanded. "Right now!"

On the way to the fast food restaurant, Chromiak told me, her passenger described making her first million dollars before the age of thirty-two and not knowing what to do with all her money. In reality, she worked at a department store cosmetics counter. The patrol car, stuffed with Ramsey belongings, went to a drive-up window, and Pam (still wearing the BPD jacket) settled down with a Happy Meal. Chromiak paid the bill.


*Here's what I'm thinking - what a spoiled little liar. Screaming about the gloves, having the officer, who is driving at the time, pull them off of her like Chromiak is her maid...bragging about having a million dollars and not knowing what to do with the money when she works at a make-up counter (why would a millionaire bother working a job like that? She likes cosmetics and applying them and selling them that much?)...and having the officer who isn't a millionaire and is doing her an extremely huge favor pick up the bill for her snack.

I just want to slap her and tell her to get over herself.

Thx,I didn't have time type that out earlier (sorry if I seemed curt at the time !)
It's hard to believe she was once a former Ms WV and a Ms America contestant..she has the grace of a cow's behind !!

 

[julianne]

Around here, the trunk of a police officers car is never "empty". It's more like an "extension" of themselves & there are a number of things they are mandated to always keep in their trunk. They carry many of their supplies in the trunk. I don't know SPECIFICALLY what supplies, but probably ones they may need but not within a split-second. I do know that they have multiple blankets, childrens toys and stuffed animals, additional ammo & other weaponry, books, logs, emergency eye wash kits, first aid supplies, clothing, along with any personal belongings of the officer that he want with him.

Just putting this out there because it is likely that she didn't fill up an ENTIRE TRUNK full of belongings---around here there is very little room to place much of anything in a police officers trunk. Plus, I know that they are required to have some free space in which to temporarily place weapons from suspects they are dealing with. Don't know if that's how it is in Boulder, but it's a possibility.

 

[icedtea4me]

It could be that I overlooked it, but I didn't see the Dr. Seuss book on the evidence list. Also, I'm wondering about that miniature parking garage Burke received that morning. John said he helped Burke put it together that night. This is a longshot, but what if there is some kind of trace residue which was part of the toy or its packaging which wound up inside JonBenet's vagina?


-Tea

 

[coloradokares]

Around here, the trunk of a police officers car is never "empty". It's more like an "extension" of themselves & there are a number of things they are mandated to always keep in their trunk. They carry many of their supplies in the trunk. I don't know SPECIFICALLY what supplies, but probably ones they may need but not within a split-second. I do know that they have multiple blankets, childrens toys and stuffed animals, additional ammo & other weaponry, books, logs, emergency eye wash kits, first aid supplies, clothing, along with any personal belongings of the officer that he want with him.

Just putting this out there because it is likely that she didn't fill up an ENTIRE TRUNK full of belongings---around here there is very little room to place much of anything in a police officers trunk. Plus, I know that they are required to have some free space in which to temporarily place weapons from suspects they are dealing with. Don't know if that's how it is in Boulder, but it's a possibility.

It couldn't have been too full. The list was extensive and we know that it according to ST was woefully incomplete. I surprised a moving van was not needed to pick up those funeral clothes. The point is the BPD did not have to release a single item. Not one. It was a Crime Scene. They were taking valuable curios? I wouldn't be thinking of curios at a time like that. Does that make sense. I lost my Dad and Mom in their own time under natural cirucmstances and I wasn't thinking of their possessions or mine at the time. I was just trying to function enough to have the presense of mind to wear a slip.

 

[icedtea4me]

the entire contents of a curio cabinet,pictures,PASSPORTS,credit cards,family bible,jewelry,clothes,bank records,personal pprs,toys,cell phone,xmas stockings...per ST's book,that's it in a nutshell(the abbreviated version)lol.

Pam: "All I need is the entire contents of this curio cabinet. That's all I need. That and these pictures. And that's all I need. Oh, wait. I need these passports. These passports, these pictures, and the entire contents of this curio cabinet. And that's all I need. That's all I need."


-Tea

 

[coloradokares]

Pam: "All I need is the entire contents of this curio cabinet. That's all I need. That and these pictures. And that's all I need. Oh, wait. I need these passports. These passports, these pictures, and the entire contents of this curio cabinet. And that's all I need. That's all I need."



-Tea

Like curio's were important. I mean the world is torn inside out and upside down they need curios and passports. For what....nothing about it makes sense. It defies comprehension.

 

[UKGuy]

Why do I think they'd be particulary interested in both size 12's and 6's when they found her body in size 12's which were so obviously out of sync. I realize they BPD and its investigators didn't nail down the crime scene but they'd been to police acadamy 101 at least. No ....those size 12's got in the Ramsey custody somehow. I doubt they walked out the door with them furcoat and all......mmmmmm Sorry I must be jaded....Aunt Pam keeps coming to mind. I think she was sent with a shopping list. Other than that they'd of sent her into the hell hole with a simple request. Something appropriate in black and few clothes for us ......?

coloradokares,

I would agree with you, but from memory, the size-12 underwear did not assume much significance until later on. In the final autopsy this is all that is mentioned:

Beneath the long underwear are white panties with printed rose buds and the words "Wednesday" on the elastic waist band. The underwear is urine stained and in the inner aspect of the crotch are several red areas of staining measuring up to 0.5 inch maximum dimension.

The size feature has either been redacted or neglected, and if the Globe article is anywhere near correct, its not until the Grand Jury phase when the importance of the underwear comes into play? Note the mention of several red areas of staining measuring up to 0.5 inch maximum dimension though, these were used by Coroner Meyer to infer that JonBenet had been wiped down, and by myself along with her sexual injury described by Coroner Meyer as a digital penetration to conclude that Toilet Rage could not be the crime being masked by the staging else she would have been redressed again in another pair of dry size-12's and longjohns or probably as planned the barbie nightgown found in the wine-cellar close by JonBenet's body.

Those lea that executed the search warrants were concentrating upon JonBenet's bedroom and toilet area, so removing most of her underwear etc.

Obviously the point I'm seeking to make is any size-12 underwear would have been scooped up with all the rest, but they were not, this is demonstrated by the Ramsey's handing the remaining pairs in years later.

And Pam must have realized at some point that what she recovered from the Ramsey house may have been crime-scene evidence, directly linked to the death of JonBenet?

So this would add to the assumption that we are dealing with a conspiracy rather than an individual homicide.




.

 

[UKGuy]

Like curio's were important. I mean the world is torn inside out and upside down they need curios and passports. For what....nothing about it makes sense. It defies comprehension.

coloradokares,

Passports are handy if you intend to flee the country and the jurisdiction of the USA, at least until the evidence assumes cold-case status?



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[Nuisanceposter]

Maybe J or P had stashed the package of size 12s somewhere inside something else, and told Pam to get that? Otherwise they would have had to have told Pam, we need the package of size 12 unders. I'm pretty sure Pam had to have gone in there with a list of things she was supposed to retrieve, such as specific stuffed toys (who really cares about stuffed toys when you need to bury your daughter and are suspects in her murder? Or the American Girl dolls? What's up with needing to get those, and why was another one ordered after JB's murder?).

I've often wondered just how much Pam knew. I notice in ST's book that Pam denies the toileting issues while Nedra doesn't (well, the second time ST interviewed her she didn't), so I think Pam knew she had to do some covering up.

We do know that the Rs had the package of size 12s in their possession for years. I have to wonder why they never destroyed them. It would have been really easy to just chuck them on the fire one night and leave police and all of us wondering forever where they came from, but then the trip to NYC when the undies were purchased wasn't a secret....

I suspect the Rs had considered evacuating the US (and needed their passports), or thought they may have to some time in the future.

 

[UKGuy]

Maybe J or P had stashed the package of size 12s somewhere inside something else, and told Pam to get that? Otherwise they would have had to have told Pam, we need the package of size 12 unders. I'm pretty sure Pam had to have gone in there with a list of things she was supposed to retrieve, such as specific stuffed toys (who really cares about stuffed toys when you need to bury your daughter and are suspects in her murder? Or the American Girl dolls? What's up with needing to get those, and why was another one ordered after JB's murder?).

I've often wondered just how much Pam knew. I notice in ST's book that Pam denies the toileting issues while Nedra doesn't (well, the second time ST interviewed her she didn't), so I think Pam knew she had to do some covering up.

We do know that the Rs had the package of size 12s in their possession for years. I have to wonder why they never destroyed them. It would have been really easy to just chuck them on the fire one night and leave police and all of us wondering forever where they came from, but then the trip to NYC when the undies were purchased wasn't a secret....

I suspect the Rs had considered evacuating the US (and needed their passports), or thought they may have to some time in the future.

Nuisanceposter,

This in one area where the Ramsey's had an advantage over the police; e.g. they were in possession of forensic evidence and knew it!

It also proves that those size-12's were never in JonBenet's bedroom dresser drawer, because the police took all her underwear away, yet the remaining size-12's turn up at the new Ramsey address!

So you can infer they were either down in the basement, upstairs in Patsy's drawers, or as you suggest inside some other household object, pinning the location down would go a long way to demonstrating Ramsey collusion in the death of JonBenet.



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[JMO8778]

coloradokares,

I would agree with you, but from memory, the size-12 underwear did not assume much significance until later on. In the final autopsy this is all that is mentioned:


The size feature has either been redacted or neglected, and if the Globe article is anywhere near correct, its not until the Grand Jury phase when the importance of the underwear comes into play? Note the mention of several red areas of staining measuring up to 0.5 inch maximum dimension though, these were used by Coroner Meyer to infer that JonBenet had been wiped down, and by myself along with her sexual injury described by Coroner Meyer as a digital penetration to conclude that Toilet Rage could not be the crime being masked by the staging else she would have been redressed again in another pair of dry size-12's and longjohns or probably as planned the barbie nightgown found in the wine-cellar close by JonBenet's body.

Those lea that executed the search warrants were concentrating upon JonBenet's bedroom and toilet area, so removing most of her underwear etc.

Obviously the point I'm seeking to make is any size-12 underwear would have been scooped up with all the rest, but they were not, this is demonstrated by the Ramsey's handing the remaining pairs in years later.

And Pam must have realized at some point that what she recovered from the Ramsey house may have been crime-scene evidence, directly linked to the death of JonBenet?

So this would add to the assumption that we are dealing with a conspiracy rather than an individual homicide.




.

as in,both of the R's,or themselves and someone outside the family?

 

[JMO8778]

Maybe J or P had stashed the package of size 12s somewhere inside something else, and told Pam to get that? Otherwise they would have had to have told Pam, we need the package of size 12 unders. I'm pretty sure Pam had to have gone in there with a list of things she was supposed to retrieve, such as specific stuffed toys (who really cares about stuffed toys when you need to bury your daughter and are suspects in her murder? Or the American Girl dolls? What's up with needing to get those, and why was another one ordered after JB's murder?).

I've often wondered just how much Pam knew. I notice in ST's book that Pam denies the toileting issues while Nedra doesn't (well, the second time ST interviewed her she didn't), so I think Pam knew she had to do some covering up.

We do know that the Rs had the package of size 12s in their possession for years. I have to wonder why they never destroyed them. It would have been really easy to just chuck them on the fire one night and leave police and all of us wondering forever where they came from, but then the trip to NYC when the undies were purchased wasn't a secret....

I suspect the Rs had considered evacuating the US (and needed their passports), or thought they may have to some time in the future.

Yea,why did JR,in DOI,say 'and Patsy particularly wanted the my twinn doll',when JB wasnt all that crazy about it,and PR said she had a premonition that she thought it looked like JB in a coffin? was JR saying that a hint of some sort to the reader? he said the doll was under the xmas tree,so maybe it really wasnt?he also made a point of talking about how JB laid it back down after opening it that morning.maybe she didnt?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Yea,why did JR,in DOI,say 'and Patsy particularly wanted the my twinn doll',when JB wasnt all that crazy about it,and PR said she had a premonition that she thought it looked like JB in a coffin? was JR saying that a hint of some sort to the reader? he said the doll was under the xmas tree,so maybe it really wasnt?he also made a point of talking about how JB laid it back down after opening it that morning.maybe she didnt?

Oh, who knows what was going on with that...it seems to me that Patsy was obsessed to some degree with the My Twinn doll. She talks about how she thought it was a good gift, set it aside so it would be opened last, and then JonBenet held it at arm's length and said it didn't look much like her, then she comes out with the "JonBenet in a coffin" comment later.

I've noticed that when the Rs call attention to something in DOI, there is a reason - like the way JR insists a stun gun was used (indicates to me it wasn't) and that JonBenet was strangled first and then bludgeoned on the head (indicates to me she was hit first and then strangled.) Following that, there is a reason that J&P bring up the doll and point that JB didn't love it as much as they thought she would and laid it aside, and that Patsy shrugged it off with "sometimes the big gift you had in mind for your kids wasn't the hit you had expected." (DOI, pb, page 4)

I think there's more to it than that. Patsy had sent out pictures of JonBenet for the manufacturer to make this doll, and it came with custom-made matching outfits so JonBenet and the doll could dress alike (again with the dressing alike.) This doll was a big deal, especially when Patsy mentions setting up gifts to make it the last one JB opens, as if it's the grand finale and ought to be the pinnacle of JB's Christmas loot pile.

What I've been wondering for some time now is - if Patsy got the doll from the house, did she keep it? If so, where is it now? Or did she let it go? If she did, how did she do so - did she give it away, or throw it in the trash, or bury it in the backyard in the tiny little coffin box it came in?

 

[UKGuy]

as in,both of the R's,or themselves and someone outside the family?

JMO8778,

The Ramsey's, their extended family, and other 3rd parties with a political interest in making sure no skeletons were upturned in any subsequent investigation that may have unintended consequences for them, sometimes politely referred to as collateral damage.

In short that makes it a conspiracy. This is the opposite of what Lou Smit and Steve Thomas suggest.



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